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TeemuVanBasten

Byram

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This bloke deserves some praise really doesn't he? 

Easy to forget that he's right footed and playing out of position at left back. 

Sometimes get frustrated with him going forward, but he's naturally going to look to cut in onto his stronger foot. 

Defensively can't fault him at all and no signs that opposition are able to exploit him being on the wrong side as a fragility.

Our summer transfer business may have been pretty woeful and inadequate on the whole, but £750k looking like a complete steal for Byram and he'll be a useful player for us for potentially years. 

It is, however, a rather damning indictment on Heise that he's being kept out of the squad by a right back and I'd guess he's the leading candidate for the chop in January if we want to free up space for an overseas player? 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten
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Heise was bought as backup for Lewis for the Championship and he didn't even figure then. Byram has made us stronger on the left and he seems to stop a lot of crosses coming in which is something Lewis doesn't do. The opposite is Aarons, easy on the eye going forward but nowhere near as strong defensively imo. Good acquisition, Sam.

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Heise was originally going to be joining on a Bosman this summer, but then we paid a small sum to bring him over early in January.

I guess we can put him down as one which didn't work out.

Loan move back to Germany in January my guess, like we did with Franke. 

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1 minute ago, daly said:

Pity he can’t header the ball 2nd chance should  have been buried

He's a 1 goal in 20 man, which is far superior to Adam Drury who was a 1 goal in 67 man :classic_laugh:

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Just now, Surfer said:

Can't **** well score though? If he had we've have won that game today. 

Diving headers into the bottom corner not likely to be his specialty is it, as a full back.

Far more concerning for me was Max Aaron's lack of end product. Any top 6 side who sign him are very much still going to be seeing him as a raw talent, because as good as he is at carrying the ball his crossing is woeful.

Byram did the right thing in trying to direct the header back across goal, replay showed his was pretty unlucky, only a yard the wrong side of the post. Put it in and it would have been a magnificent goal. 

Far more criminal was Pukki not squaring to Tettey for a tap in. 

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3 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Diving headers into the bottom corner not likely to be his specialty is it, as a full back.

Far more concerning for me was Max Aaron's lack of end product. Any top 6 side who sign him are very much still going to be seeing him as a raw talent, because as good as he is at carrying the ball his crossing is woeful.

Byram did the right thing in trying to direct the header back across goal, replay showed his was pretty unlucky, only a yard the wrong side of the post. Put it in and it would have been a magnificent goal. 

Far more criminal was Pukki not squaring to Tettey for a tap in. 

Only half true really TVB - Aarons end product was poor in the first half and excellent in the second half. Check who it was who crossed for Byram's header. 

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Byram has been a brilliant piece of business. I remember West Ham fans being up in arms that we'd let him go for such a pittance... iffy injury record, but he's stayed fit and looked very capable at PL level. Awesome signing, and if Max does go in the summer then Byram and Lewis would be a very strong pairing for the Championship.

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8 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Only half true really TVB - Aarons end product was poor in the first half and excellent in the second half. Check who it was who crossed for Byram's header. 

Its completely true Thirsty Lizard, because as an attacking full back who gets forward a lot he has 0 assists this season.

Trent Arnold-Alexander responsible for 3 assists against Leicester today..... in one game.

 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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12 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Its completely true Thirsty Lizard, because as an attacking full back who gets forward a lot he has 0 assists this season.

Trent Arnold-Alexander responsible for 3 assists against Leicester today..... in one game.

 

So not being Trent Alexander-Arnold is a valid stick to beat one of our talented youngsters with? How perplexing.

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Think Byram has been excellent so far. I was saying earlier, when we sell Aarons - that  money can be channelled elsewhere as his replacement is already in the building.

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14 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Its completely true Thirsty Lizard, because as an attacking full back who gets forward a lot he has 0 assists this season.

Trent Arnold-Alexander responsible for 3 assists against Leicester today..... in one game.

 

Meaningless I'm afraid TVB - Byram's header today - chance Pukki missed from 2 yards at Leicester - cross Cantwell headed over from 2 yards at West Ham - great chance Cantwell missed against Man Utd.  

These are from the top of my head without even thinking about it. Aarons has set up plenty of excellent chances this season - hardly his fault that others have missed them. 

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4 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

So not being Trent Alexander-Arnold is a valid stick to beat one of our talented youngsters with? How perplexing.

I didn't "beat him with a stick", I simply said that any top 6 side that signs him this summer would be buying him as a player who is still very much a raw prospect and then compared him with an actual top 6 right back. 

What a bizarre interpretation of my post!

 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I didn't "beat him with a stick", I simply said that any top 6 side who signs him this summer would be buying him as a player who is still a raw prospect.

What a bizarre interpretation of my post! 

Well you were slating his 'lack of end product' because he has 0 assists. How often do you see our full-backs slinging crosses into the box anyway? They offer additional width and interplay, and cut-backs into the area. In this Norwich side (note: he plays for Norwich, not Liverpool), it might be fairer to perhaps see how many chances he has created rather than how many assists he has, as we've scored a fraction of the goals Liverpool have scored.

Of course he's still raw, he's barely had a year of professional football under his belt before he was thrown into a Premier League campaign as an integral part of a seriously undernourished squad. You then made a direct comparison between his output and that of TEE, who is playing in the world's best club team and frequently has two or three forward players on the defensive line to aim his crosses at.

Lad's doing really well considering; 18 months ago he hadn't played a professional game!

 

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14 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Meaningless I'm afraid TVB - Byram's header today - chance Pukki missed from 2 yards at Leicester - cross Cantwell headed over from 2 yards at West Ham - great chance Cantwell missed against Man Utd.  

These are from the top of my head without even thinking about it. Aarons has set up plenty of excellent chances this season - hardly his fault that others have missed them. 

And another one to add - also from today - skins his man gets to the byline and stands up a perfect cross which Byram nods back to Hernandez and Heaton makes a fantastic save.

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37 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Well you were slating his 'lack of end product' because he has 0 assists. How often do you see our full-backs slinging crosses into the box anyway? They offer additional width and interplay, and cut-backs into the area. In this Norwich side (note: he plays for Norwich, not Liverpool), it might be fairer to perhaps see how many chances he has created rather than how many assists he has, as we've scored a fraction of the goals Liverpool have scored.

Of course he's still raw, he's barely had a year of professional football under his belt before he was thrown into a Premier League campaign as an integral part of a seriously undernourished squad. You then made a direct comparison between his output and that of TEE, who is playing in the world's best club team and frequently has two or three forward players on the defensive line to aim his crosses at.

Lad's doing really well considering; 18 months ago he hadn't played a professional game!

Can't help but feel that you haven't taken the whole conversation (that I was having with somebody else) into consideration here, and therefore you are taking this a bit out of context as a result.

Of course Max Aarons is only 19, and very inexperienced. Of course he is doing well, of course he is a great prospect. He's one of the best players I've seen come through our youth system. He's about a year behind Trent Arnold-Alexander in his development, and a year is a long time in football, TAA is playing in a better side.  I'm not called any of that into question. You are correct in all of that, I've not taken any position to the contrary. 

And if I were questioning his talent as you seem to be implying without just cause I wouldn't be talking about him being a potential targets for top 6 clubs would I????? (<lots of bold question marks to emphasise my complete bewilderment). 

I still stand by my assertion that he has a lot of work to do on his end product to reach the top of English football, in a position which is quite crowded with some serious young talent, and I'm not really sure how making that point is any way 'beating him with a stick'. As you said, it is to be expected because of his age and a lack of inexperience (so why are you even questioning it? You seem to want to agree and disagree at the same time!). 

If you want data though I'm happy to provide. Max Aarons has crossed the ball 30 times this season, which is the 3rd most out of any Norwich player. I could possibly look into how many chances he has created as you suggested, but I'm not sure how that would change things as he'd still have no assists. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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I think the issue with Aarons is that his crossing is a bit hit-and-miss, you aren’t quite sure what you’re going to get so perhaps that’s one of the reasons why there’s no assist....if that stat of 30 crosses is correct, the one for zero assists is criminal.

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4 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

I think the issue with Aarons is that his crossing is a bit hit-and-miss, you aren’t quite sure what you’re going to get so perhaps that’s one of the reasons why there’s no assist....if that stat of 30 crosses is correct, the one for zero assists is criminal.

In fairness he doesn't exactly have a target man to aim for, Pukki prefers the ball in behind. 

But you'd still expect our full backs to have a few assists considering how often they get forward (Lewis doesn't have any either). 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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5 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Meaningless I'm afraid TVB - Byram's header today - chance Pukki missed from 2 yards at Leicester - cross Cantwell headed over from 2 yards at West Ham - great chance Cantwell missed against Man Utd.  

These are from the top of my head without even thinking about it. Aarons has set up plenty of excellent chances this season - hardly his fault that others have missed them. 

As to whether Aaron’s has set up plenty of chances is immaterial, he is primarily a defender, who unfortunately cannot defend very well at all at this level, particularly at set pieces. Take a look at which flank most of the goals conceded come from!

I appreciate he is a very young talent, but for his game to improve he needs (and probably will) to move on, and  to receive far better (defensive) coaching than what it appears he is receiving at NCFC. In all honesty has his game “improved” on last season, in a defence that has regularly conceded goals?

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Spot on City 2nd young Max is one of my favourite players but his defending is not his strong point.When we play so well and still end up with no points obviously players will be criticised.None of our players are beyond that whether they are our favourites or one of the youngest in the team.

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Without having a dig at Aaron’s, I thought Lewis had been the better of the two full backs this season, until his injury. I would prefer a left footer at left back so I would’ve thought there’s some merit in bringing Lewis back in and dropping Aaron’s? Byram is the best defensively and deserves to keep his place. 

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8 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

Well you were slating his 'lack of end product' because he has 0 assists. How often do you see our full-backs slinging crosses into the box anyway? They offer additional width and interplay, and cut-backs into the area. In this Norwich side (note: he plays for Norwich, not Liverpool), it might be fairer to perhaps see how many chances he has created rather than how many assists he has, as we've scored a fraction of the goals Liverpool have scored.

Of course he's still raw, he's barely had a year of professional football under his belt before he was thrown into a Premier League campaign as an integral part of a seriously undernourished squad. You then made a direct comparison between his output and that of TEE, who is playing in the world's best club team and frequently has two or three forward players on the defensive line to aim his crosses at.

Lad's doing really well considering; 18 months ago he hadn't played a professional game!

 

The bit in bold for me.

 

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8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Can't help but feel that you haven't taken the whole conversation (that I was having with somebody else) into consideration here, and therefore you are taking this a bit out of context as a result.

Of course Max Aarons is only 19, and very inexperienced. Of course he is doing well, of course he is a great prospect. He's one of the best players I've seen come through our youth system. He's about a year behind Trent Arnold-Alexander in his development, and a year is a long time in football, TAA is playing in a better side.  I'm not called any of that into question. You are correct in all of that, I've not taken any position to the contrary. 

And if I were questioning his talent as you seem to be implying without just cause I wouldn't be talking about him being a potential targets for top 6 clubs would I????? (<lots of bold question marks to emphasise my complete bewilderment). 

I still stand by my assertion that he has a lot of work to do on his end product to reach the top of English football, in a position which is quite crowded with some serious young talent, and I'm not really sure how making that point is any way 'beating him with a stick'. As you said, it is to be expected because of his age and a lack of inexperience (so why are you even questioning it? You seem to want to agree and disagree at the same time!). 

If you want data though I'm happy to provide. Max Aarons has crossed the ball 30 times this season, which is the 3rd most out of any Norwich player. I could possibly look into how many chances he has created as you suggested, but I'm not sure how that would change things as he'd still have no assists. 

A fair and well-reasoned post, TVB. Perhaps I didn't take the whole conversation in context with my original post, and "beating him with a stick" was a little unfair a term to use. I don't deny that he has a lot of work to do to reach the top, both with end product and with his defensive abilities.

I do still think 'chances created' would be a fairer representation; I've just looked this up (filter by 'Norwich' on https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/big_chance_created) and he's actually top, ahead of Emi! I didn't know that when I posted originally, but I think that slightly vindicates my original point of view, even if I put it across a bit clumsily (blame the mulled wine, hey).

What this does indicate, I think, is that our style of play, while using the width of attacking full-backs, doesn't rely on traditional crosses as much as most clubs, but rather on triangles in/around the box, and cut-backs (but whether/when they are classed as crosses for statistical purposes, I don't know).

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10 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

A fair and well-reasoned post, TVB. Perhaps I didn't take the whole conversation in context with my original post, and "beating him with a stick" was a little unfair a term to use. I don't deny that he has a lot of work to do to reach the top, both with end product and with his defensive abilities.

I do still think 'chances created' would be a fairer representation; I've just looked this up (filter by 'Norwich' on https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/big_chance_created) and he's actually top, ahead of Emi! I didn't know that when I posted originally, but I think that slightly vindicates my original point of view, even if I put it across a bit clumsily (blame the mulled wine, hey).

What this does indicate, I think, is that our style of play, while using the width of attacking full-backs, doesn't rely on traditional crosses as much as most clubs, but rather on triangles in/around the box, and cut-backs (but whether/when they are classed as crosses for statistical purposes, I don't know).

Yeah, for an incredibly young full-back playing in a struggling side his chance creation is very good. Don't deny the quality of his delivery wasn't great first half yesterday but generally he's pretty good.

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Generally I would say our players are coached not to cross into a statistically poor penalty box and instead pull the ball back to our attacking mids to try and unlock defence.

Although I can see why we would do this, I think a lot of the time we give ourselves too much to do as, like in the Hughton days, when the ball cuts back inside generally PL teams have got 8-9 players back in their defensive lines. We give teams way too much time to get set and facing forwards, which is so much harder to break down than defenders facing their own goal. 

Our attacks in this way do not vary and as such a quite easy to defend against.

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