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TeemuVanBasten

We've just f'cked it up.

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1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

There was a quote from Domogella last week in a pinkun article where he suggested they have been doing more high intensity sprint work because the stats show you need to do more sprints in premier league games.

Do the Goalkeepers participate in these sessions?.....

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2 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

Do the Goalkeepers participate in these sessions?.....

I have no idea! It’s hard though to escape the conclusion that one way or another a few of our players are showing signs of fatigue at what is still a quite early stage of the season. 

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Well those that are not injured kept running to the very end of the game today. Personally I am not going to write us off after just 8 games, particularly given the amount of injuries we have. I would suggest losing so many key players to injury would be an issue for most teams........

 

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We were doing double sessions last season, and generally playing twice a week rather than once a week as we are now. Jurgen Klopp seems to be doing relatively ok with his side injury wise, and they also do double sessions, it’s the German way and I don’t see half the Bundesliga missing. But I guess we have to put the blame on something of course rather than just accept it could just be the law of averages that some seasons we’ll come through near enough unscathed whereas another could be equally at the other end of the spectrum as we’re freakishly experiencing now. I also think that people are underestimating the importance of a Klose/Zimmermann alongside a Aaron’s and a Godfrey/Lewis that are, incidentally, far away from being 100% fit also. We’re doing the best we can given the circumstances, and I’ll stand with Farke, Webber etc rather than join in with those quick to get sandy underpants.

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1 hour ago, Aggy said:

5-6 million plus Wilson’s salary for a fourth or fifth  choice centre back and a loanee was never going to be anywhere near realistic. 

You don't sign a "fifth choice centre back" though do you, you sign one who you think has got the potential to challenge for a spot or who has raw potential that you can develop? Hanley was our first choice centre back whilst Farke set about trying to turn Godfrey into one... You don't tell a player that you are signing them to be fifth choice, you sign a player and tell them that you want them to work on a few things then force their way into the side? 

Obviously we'd sign a player who we'd think would be able to push Hanley down the pecking order, and you'd want the player to have some self belief.... so I don't really see where you are coming from at all mate. 

Also, we spent £5m on two U23 players last time we got promoted, so I don't see why you suddenly consider that to be such a huge sum of money. Their names..... James Maddison and Ben Godfrey. 

The idea is to spend £2.5m on a centre back that you think could become a £10m+ player? Semi Ajayi doing very well at West Brom, they'd want at least that for him now if we bid in January wouldn't they? He's 25 and on an upwards trajectory.

1 hour ago, Aggy said:

So you think it would have been prudent to start the season with five centre backs? 

The thing is Aggy if we'd signed another centre back we wouldn't have started the season with five would we, because we already knew that one had missed pre-season and was going to miss a substantial chunk of the actual season. Had Klose not been injured I don't think he'd have been brought back into the side so early, and we know how that ended.

We knew that Klose has had a series of knee injuries including one last season, so going into the season with Godfrey, Hanley and Klose was obviously a risk. Then you've got Farke saying that if he had enough fit centre backs at his disposal he'd try a wing back formation. Well if there is the possibility that we'd end up playing 3 centre backs at any given time then yes.... you probably would equip yourself with 5? 

I had a look at the squads of other Premier League sides and about half have 5 and the other half have 4. A few of those that have 4 have one of those versatile players who can do full back or centre back / jack of all trades clogger as an additional option (none of our four full backs can move inside). Example: Paul Dummett.... big 6ft squad player who can do left back or centre back.

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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Just now, Alex Moss said:

We were doing double sessions last season, and generally playing twice a week rather than once a week as we are now. 

Our fitness coach has confirmed that we're doing different types of sessions this season, so last seasons regime/intensity irrelevant.

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There was a Tetty shaped hole in front of our defence that cost us the game. Amadou needs to fill that gap.

Move Lewis to CB and play Bryan as LB.

Edited by The Bristol Nest

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Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

Our fitness coach has confirmed that we're doing different types of sessions this season, so last seasons regime/intensity irrelevant.

When you say different, you mean that we’re now also working on sprinting? How’s that work with our goalkeeping injuries? I don’t believe that there have been the wholesale changes to training that you suggest, and yes, I read the article too. I don’t see this being a reason for so many injuries - all Premier League teams will be working on the same things also. 

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1 minute ago, The Bristol Nest said:

There was a Tetty shaped hole in front of our defence that cost us the game. Amadou needs to fill that gap.

Move Lewis to CB and play Bryan as LB.

Sorry but Lewis just not good enough with his head or imposing enough as a player to do that. I wish we did have a full back who could do a job at centre back at this level, but we simply don't.

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Just now, The Bristol Nest said:

OK.

My point was that we need protection in front of the back four.

We need to hope that Tettey/Hanley/Trybull can get back quickly. And preferably Krul/Ralf also, because McGovern deserves some respect for coming in for his first start in 2.5 years as a 35 year old and pulling off a few smart saves today.... but his distribution is really ****.

And I suspect we're missing Krul barking orders at that back four also.

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3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

So naive that we had our best season possibly ever last season.  And it's still early in the season this season. Players will return and things will get better.

 

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

I thought Farke and co done enough to be given a little more respect than this.

Well, theyll get it from me at least.

Agree completely with these two posts. It was a bad performance magnified by the injuries but we will bounce back, people seem to have forgotten the Man City and Newcastle games very quickly. 

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26 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

 

The thing is Aggy if we'd signed another centre back we wouldn't have started the season with five would we, because we already knew that one had missed pre-season and was going to miss a substantial chunk of the actual season. Had Klose not been injured I don't think he'd have been brought back into the side so early, and we know how that ended.

Sorry who was expected to miss a substantial chunk of the season? Klose, who was in for Crawley (missed three games)? Or Zimmerman who was back for West Ham (so also missed only three league games)? That both got injured on their come back isn’t “knowing...they would miss a substantial chunk of the season”. It’s extreme bad luck.

Coming into the season, we were expecting to have four fully fit centre backs within about a month. Plus Amadou as the emergency fifth choice utility man you say we haven’t got. Hardly worth spending 2.5mil plus additional wages for a fifth out and out centre back is it. 

Would Ajayi have gotten in before Godfrey or Zimmerman? Or Klose? Probably not, so fourth choice, third at best. Or he can play regular first team football at West Brom and stake a claim for regular prem football with them next season. Why would he come to us and be third, fourth or fifth choice? Especially as they are probably paying wages similar to what we could afford anyway. Why would we pay that much money for a third fourth or fifth choice when we were expecting to have four fit centre backs within a month and Amadou as fifth choice. 

As for none of our full backs being able to play centre half, presumably that’s why Amadou is here. First choice midfielder who can be that fifth choice centre back when needed. Same response to your point about going into the season with only Godfrey, Zimmerman and Hanley if Klose isn’t deemed fit enough to be relied on. Amadou is the cover.

I will agree with you though that Lewis definitely shouldn’t be playing at centre back!

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I’m certainly not negative when it comes to NCFC, and was one of the few who saw that things weren’t all doom and gloom at the start of last season.

However, many saw we were too leaky  last season and I went on and on about it needing looking at in close-season, but sadly it wasn’t. Injuries aren’t helping but aren’t the entire reason.  

Hopefully it’ll come good, we still have plenty of time - but something wasn’t quite ‘there’ today.

 

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1 minute ago, Aggy said:

I will agree with you though that Lewis definitely shouldn’t be playing at centre back!

Well let's finish on a point of agreement then 😀

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Just a comment on the cb’s - it was v widely expected that Hanley was going to go (if only on loan) so we’d have not necessarily had 5 cbs by signing another as one would have been pushed out (...and even when fit Hanley played barely a game for us in a lower tier last season, which suggests he maybe above his level now)

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2 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Just a comment on the cb’s - it was v widely expected that Hanley was going to go (if only on loan) so we’d have not necessarily had 5 cbs by signing another as one would have been pushed out (...and even when fit Hanley played barely a game for us in a lower tier last season, which suggests he maybe above his level now)

Agreed. I don’t know whether we couldn’t find the right player to bring in or couldn’t find anyone offering a good enough deal to take one of the others (most likely Hanley) off our hands. But I think we’d have needed both of those things before another centre back came in.

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12 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Well let's finish on a point of agreement then 😀

 

Changed my mind Aggy!

I'd said on that other thread that I thought we'd spend a good £15m in the summer, possibly £10m/£12m on a domestic player for the homegrown quota who could potentially have improved one of the spots in the XI.

And I actually wanted us to sign Adam Webster. He obviously went for far more than I'd have expected him to, so that rules him out....

.... But I don't think it would have done any harm at all to sign a player who was an immediate upgrade on Grant Hanley and a succession plan for Timm Klose who isn't getting any younger and has had a lot of injuries now.

Matt Clarke from Portsmouth would have been one option. 

Now your argument is that Semi Ajayi wouldn't have signed for a Premier League side if he thought he'd be 3rd/4th choice....

.... but Matt Clarke signed for Brighton and went straight out on loan to Derby? Presumably Brighton want him to get a full season under his belt at Championship level at which point he'll then either challenge for a space in their Premier League side, or be an insurance policy against relegation (at which point they'd definitely be losing Lewis Dunk). 

That looks like good forward thinking from Brighton to me. Now in our case, with Zimmermann injured for the first few weeks of the season, we'd evidently not loan him out immediately but look at it in January.

Then in January we'd be keeping him if he did alright in the team, because Klose got injured in the interim.

I count five centre backs in Brighton's squad PLUS Matt Clarke out on loan.

Shane Duffy, Lewis Dunk, Leon Balogun, Adam Webster, Dan Burn..... Plus Clarke.

That's 5 in their squad, and presumably some succession planning. Duffy and Dunk will have their options if they get relegated. 

I don't see where these big barriers are to having 5 centre backs, especially if you have a manager who is open to the idea of playing 3! 

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Its hard for me to say because Klose is one of my favourite players but Farke biggest mistake is that he believe Klose sign new deal and make full preparation is the answer for our defensive problems. Klose is inj prone and  him is on wrong side of the 30 so this was a  big gamble who ofcourse not work. Hanley was simply 4th choose centre back who need to play some cup games and not to moan too much for non play enough and we have Zimbo known since June that will miss all preparation.

Bad news is that most of our key players in defence is no near return to squad and even after that what we have ?Zimbo who just will back from 6 month out who mean need time to back his form  and also never play in this league to save us from relegation!?

 

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People are also forgetting that Hanley is not really up to it at this level which is perhaps another reason we had to rush Zimm and Klose back sooner than we might have done. Whichever way you look at it we left ourselves short.

on the training it’s obviously hard to say whether any changes have made a difference but people have asked what we are doing differently this season and the extra high intensity sprinting work appears to be the difference. We have either been incredibly unlucky or there could be a link. Hard to tell which. 

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Our style of play means we will concede goals. That is a given and people were happy to accept it last season. Now it's got a little bit difficult and people don't have the backbone for it anymore. It's weak.

Yesterday we had one half-fit CB, a LB on painkillers, a RB just back from injury, and not a single holding midfielder. 

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Our style of play means we will concede goals. That is a given and people were happy to accept it last season. Now it's got a little bit difficult and people don't have the backbone for it anymore. It's weak.

Yesterday we had one half-fit CB, a LB on painkillers, a RB just back from injury, and not a single holding midfielder. 

Fans don’t like the fact their team ships 5 goals and loses at home. Or that we can’t defend. Nothing to do with backbone. You lot that just blindly and unquestionably accept everything without comment are just strange.

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Yeah it’s a ridiculous comment. Conceding 5 goals at home to a team that we finished something like 27 points above last season is unacceptable under any circumstances and has nothing to do with fans having “backbone” injuries were not to blame for the on pitch mistakes made by players that would have started the match if a full squad were available 

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Just now, JF said:

Yeah it’s a ridiculous comment. Conceding 5 goals at home to a team that we finished something like 27 points above last season is unacceptable under any circumstances and has nothing to do with fans having “backbone” injuries were not to blame for the on pitch mistakes made by players that would have started the match if a full squad were available 

Bit naive to suggest that if one of the players that would have started made a mistake in a team full of players that wouldnt normally start the same thing would happen? The same mistake would happen?

I dont enjoy conceding 5 goals at home. Or spending 90 minutes standing there and watching it. But there are claims already that Farke doesnt know what hes doing, the owners need to go and we need to change the way we play.

That is at complete contrast to 4 games ago. The pendulum swing is what's pathetic and lacks backbone. Webber told us exactly what we were going to do this season and how we were going to do it. Everyone loved it. Now it's actually happening people dont have the bottle to stick with it already.

Youd think people would learn after calling for Farkes head at the start of last season, but clearly not.

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3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Bit naive to suggest that if one of the players that would have started made a mistake in a team full of players that wouldnt normally start the same thing would happen? The same mistake would happen?

I dont enjoy conceding 5 goals at home. Or spending 90 minutes standing there and watching it. But there are claims already that Farke doesnt know what hes doing, the owners need to go and we need to change the way we play.

That is at complete contrast to 4 games ago. The pendulum swing is what's pathetic and lacks backbone. Webber told us exactly what we were going to do this season and how we were going to do it. Everyone loved it. Now it's actually happening people dont have the bottle to stick with it already.

Youd think people would learn after calling for Farkes head at the start of last season, but clearly not.

Bundia gave the ball away which directly resulted in two goals being conceded so no it’s not naive. Injuries are to blame for most of our problems but yesterday a lot was self inflicted 

I believe Farke made that point is his post match interview as well

Edited by JF

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Our main issue at CB even with a fit squad is our ability to defend in the air.

Klose is our strongest player off the deck. 

None of the others rates particularly highly in this regard. A cross across the 6 yard box is pretty dangerous anyway however we are particularly susceptible to this. 

Premiership sides are packed with players who can deliver precision passes into this area we need to be able to deal with it. 

Currently we are not. The zonal marking thing is another issue Farke is married to zonal and won’t change it. With the constant turnover in Centre Backs however we don’t seem able to make it work furthermore our full backs are also not good in the air either. 

Somehow we need to find a way to defend better. On the deck we are pretty decent but we have to be first to the ball in our own 6 yard box.

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Nobody is saying Farke doesn’t know what he’s doing but it’s legitimate to point out that the defending has been consistently poor and now it is really costing us.

its also legitimate to point out that the reason our squad is not as deep as some others is in part due to our ownership model and that we have left ourselves short in some areas.

its also legitimate to question why we appear to have almost twice as many players out injured as any other premier league club. It could just be bad luck but it could be something else. When you are consistently picking up injuries every week (including lots in training) surely it’s something to be looked at.

All that said we have been horrendously unlucky with injuries and the break comes at a good time for us to try and regroup a little. I hope the boys get a few days off to rest. Even though we got hammered yesterday the league is still tight and we actually had 21 shots on goal so there are still positives to our play. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Our style of play means we will concede goals. That is a given and people were happy to accept it last season. Now it's got a little bit difficult and people don't have the backbone for it anymore. It's weak.

I was clinging on to this theory in the early stages of the season, but when you've conceded at least twice in seven of your eight league games and failed to keep a clean sheet once it starts to wear a bit thin. Now the goals have started to dry up at the other end too, it's a real worry. We have to address the amount of goals conceded or we're in big trouble, because at this rate we're not going to outscore our opponents often enough to reach 38 points or whatever we need.

We can argue that things will get better when our injured players return, and I'm sure they will, but bearing in mind we've got just Godfrey and Hanley until January, we have to find a solution ASAP with the players we have fit right now. This will be very, very difficult but unless a solution is found then we're likely to go, erm, you know.... 

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16 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I keep hearing we've been 'really unlucky' with injuries, why are people prepared to accept this explanation? We're evidently doing something wrong and it is probably the intensity of the training sessions or some bizarre training techniques somewhere. 

Interestingly, Real Madrid have a serious injury crisis at the moment and some training videos leaked which were heavily criticised by sports scientists all over the world. 

In addition, we've basically knowingly purchased players with bad injury records because they are cheaper. Why do you think Byram was available for £750k, and Drmic didn't reach his potential and play for Arsenal? Its part of the 'way' we seem to have adopted. Tim Krul had a potential career ending injury. 

Ralf had 2 muscle injuries and a groin strain last season. 

Knowingly taking a punt on players with bad injury records is something that Webber has openly admitted to, so why on earth would we then call ourselves "unlucky". 

Now, we knew that we had a significant number of players with and injury histories (Tettey, Klose, Leitner all had a lot of injuries). So why would this be a huge surprise, and why would this make us 'unlucky', would it not in fact mean that we'd not been as 'lucky' as we'd hoped when knowingly taking risks on things like this?

Now most importantly... when you know that you've got probably 5 or 6 players in your squad that would have quite a high chance of failing medicals at other clubs (like Leroy Fer did before we signed him), would that make a pretty compelling case for maxing out your 25 rather than going with 23? 

How is it "unlucky" to knowingly register only 23 players when you already have 2 player out long term (that leaves 21) and have a good 7 injury prone players in your squad (that leaves 14). 

Timm Klose = Knee Injury (had one before)

Tom Trybull = Ankle Injury (had one before)

Mario Vrancic = Calf Injury (had one before)

Ralf Fahrmann = Groin Injury (had one a year ago)

 

We've signed players who are prone to injuries, put them into really high intensity training and then cursed our luck when those injuries reoccur.

I don't think we've been "unlucky" at all, there was always a realistic chance that our high risk strategy would backfire. If anything we've been naive. 

Absolute Binnery

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