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Move Ground to move forward.

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1 hour ago, Bill said:

at last

now you recognise why others have been dismissing this 'airy fairy' idea that the club could simply redevelop and increase income - whilst the economics and=d logistics of that could be blithely ignored

Every single time I quote you in a post I have to start a reply with 'THAT'S NOT THE POINT THAT WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE!'

I swear you're not even reading my posts, you're just reading what you want to read. 

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On 23/06/2019 at 17:47, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Is our Premier League place guaranteed? No, and it never will be. Aside from the big six and Everton, no club in the Premier League has more than seven consecutive years in it at the moment. Using this logic, no club other than the big six will ever expand a stadium because it's just too risky- but we can see from what other clubs are doing that it clearly isn't the case. They're investing in facilities to maximise the long term potential and value of the club.

In fact the reality is that most haven't 'expanded' they have simply built a new stadium.

Not the same , as most moved out of long redundat grounds.

Those top six have European games whereby there is extra revenue to be earned above their league games and often have far higher ticket prices.

Whereas this thread has been clogged up with the gormless who prevously claimed that we could expand and increase ticket income above the building costs !

And only now is it dawning on some that logistically it will be a night mare.

However in pointing out those facts it is to take the debate to a reasoned level, away from the previous buffoonery.

Portray those who point these facts out as being some  kind of negative 'naysayers' if it saves you from dealing with reality.

Though it should not go unnoticed that this level of whining about seats available was not here last autumn, funny that.

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Oh the irony 25 years on. 

Robert Chase was hounded out of the club for putting funding towards facilities and land rather than players.

Yet now a significant minority are suggesting we do exactly that. Reduce our playing budget so that we can build a stand.

The board can’t win, they spend money on players and there are a vocal bunch who maintain we aren’t spending enough and trying to do things on the cheap. We push the boat out on signings and those same few moan when we have to sell and are forced to make cut backs.

What this club needs for the next 2 or 3 years is a bit of stability, if we are still fortunate enough to be premier league club at that point then expansion is a discussion worth having.

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On 23/06/2019 at 17:20, ricardo said:

So there is at 1p5wich but they are hardly rushing the turnstyles.

They’re probably watching West Ham. Or Colchester. 😐

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2 hours ago, Bill said:

 

Though it should not go unnoticed that this level of whining about seats available was not here last autumn, funny that.

I think theres no doubt that currently there are a lot of people who would undeservedly benefit from Carrow Roads expansion, picking up season tickets for the big time then dropping them when things aren't so great. But ultimately if we are to grow as a club it will eventually need to happen. 

I wouldn't want to see Webber to come out tomorrow and announce a ground expansion. But if we do maintain our premierleague position for a few seasons there will ultimately come a time when the profits diminish due to the increasing wage bill and the eventual day we find ourselves back in the championship no doubt in another transition. At some point we must make decisions that grow this football club. If it means during the seasons we find ourselves in the lower leagues the ground doesn't quite sell out so be it. That will be times when the larger capacity isn't of much use (unless in the long term it does facilitate some kind of small price reduction making the game more affordable for more people) however ultimately we would be improving ourselves for the good times - when we are at the top table and trying to grow our support. 

It isn't really that funny that no one was whinging about tickets last autumn. With the current price structure vs performances on the pitch (in which the club do a good job maximising profits) added to the fact that just about everyone is aware a ground expansion can't be afforded without the premier-league TV money who on earth would be asking for expansion when we are in the championship?

 

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2 hours ago, ThorpeCanary said:

who on earth would be asking for expansion when we are in the championship?

 

Might be the best time to do it.  Less demand for tickets means that we would lose least by having to close a stand. 

our young guns will all want to leave giving us a cash boost that we wouldn't want to spend on wages 

And if we have beens sensible with recruitment and relegation clauses we shouldn't need to panic about loss of TV income.

Stand would then be ready to reap rewards when we do get back up (as will will do, eventually)

Second best option might be to do it after surviving this year when tv money is still high but the team is still largely that assembled when we had no right to expect premier league income and recruited accordingly

I'm hoping for second best...

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4 hours ago, Essex_Canary said:

Oh the irony 25 years on. 

Robert Chase was hounded out of the club for putting funding towards facilities and land rather than players.

 

No he was not. He had taken on short term unsecured loans which the club could not service which took us to the brink of administration with Barclays Bank about to step in. He jumped before he was pushed with the assistance of Geoffrey Watling.

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Yes. There is a reason it is called the Geoffrey Watling City Stand , and Geoffrey Watling Way.

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There is also the interesting perspective that some people who have season tickets may not be interested in spending our budget on infrastructure as they get in anyway and aren't interested in those standing outside the ground on a matchday...... lights fuse💣

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22 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I don't see how the project could be phased in such a way that it can be done, although I'm not an engineer...build around/above the stand whilst allowing the existing part to be fully operational and then redevelop the existing parts over a couple of summers.

As mentioned earlier, it is very possible. Leicester RUFC did it at Welford Rd as shown here In the first photo the existing stand seating and back of the old stand can be seen to the left of the posts. I suppose the question in our circumstances is the viability of something similar taking into account the presence of the road behind (and I suppose the inner ring road beyond that) whilst being able to achieve the required ‘sight lines’. But there are plenty of examples of stands being built over roads (Old Trafford, Villa Park). Does the Club own the ‘redundant’ road?

 

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23 minutes ago, Beetley Yellow said:

As mentioned earlier, it is very possible. Leicester RUFC did it at Welford Rd as shown here In the first photo the existing stand seating and back of the old stand can be seen to the left of the posts. I suppose the question in our circumstances is the viability of something similar taking into account the presence of the road behind (and I suppose the inner ring road beyond that) whilst being able to achieve the required ‘sight lines’. But there are plenty of examples of stands being built over roads (Old Trafford, Villa Park). Does the Club own the ‘redundant’ road?

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said. 'The project' I referred to was completely demolishing the City Stand and building a new one.

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If we went down and most of our young talent decided to jump ship, the club could be in the odd position of making so much profit it would make sense to allocate it to something else to prevent paying a huge tax bill. Obviously that "something else" could be a squad upgrade, so could be controversial.

This thread seems to be dominated by people who've had season tickets for ages and who probably mix with people who are in the same position. The fact is supporters are a spectrum from "I'll do anything to get a ticket for every game" to "I really want to go, but only if I can sit with my mates in my favourite part of the ground" to "I'd love to go, but last time it was such a hassle getting a ticket, and I can watch it on a stream so I probably won't bother". CR has become almost a closed shop for all bar the first group of very motivated supporters and that is well-known across the region. There is no way of knowing our potential support until it becomes easier for groups of people to get tickets in areas they like to sit and that becomes known within our catchment. Supply is fixed, but demand is malleable to an extent with marketing, ticket offers, extended family area, linkups with local businesses etc. 

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I realise it’s not quite that simple, but if we do expand and have a couple of thousand empty seats, it would seem an ideal opportunity to revive Kids for a Quid or similar to invest in future generations of supporters. 

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6 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

If we went down and most of our young talent decided to jump ship, the club could be in the odd position of making so much profit it would make sense to allocate it to something else to prevent paying a huge tax bill. Obviously that "something else" could be a squad upgrade, so could be controversial.

This thread seems to be dominated by people who've had season tickets for ages and who probably mix with people who are in the same position. The fact is supporters are a spectrum from "I'll do anything to get a ticket for every game" to "I really want to go, but only if I can sit with my mates in my favourite part of the ground" to "I'd love to go, but last time it was such a hassle getting a ticket, and I can watch it on a stream so I probably won't bother". CR has become almost a closed shop for all bar the first group of very motivated supporters and that is well-known across the region. There is no way of knowing our potential support until it becomes easier for groups of people to get tickets in areas they like to sit and that becomes known within our catchment. Supply is fixed, but demand is malleable to an extent with marketing, ticket offers, extended family area, linkups with local businesses etc. 

Good post,, I think this is important to realise. It's not just a case of "more seats". If the ground was expanded, there are several ways the club can help itself by encouraging more flexible seating arrangements for all sorts of different supporter types. 

 

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3 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

I realise it’s not quite that simple, but if we do expand and have a couple of thousand empty seats, it would seem an ideal opportunity to revive Kids for a Quid or similar to invest in future generations of supporters. 

However, the question remains, why would the club take on debt just to offer cheaper prices and allow more people to sit together.

I expect the main stand will eventually be redeveloped but that is more likely to be a medium term prospect.

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3 minutes ago, ricardo said:

 

I expect the main stand will eventually be redeveloped but that is more likely to be a medium term prospect.

No one is putting a time limit on it ric, merely that it should be kept on the table for consideration, so that if and when the Club is ready it could be done with the extra capacity to allow for expansion. 

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24 minutes ago, ricardo said:

However, the question remains, why would the club take on debt just to offer cheaper prices and allow more people to sit together.

I expect the main stand will eventually be redeveloped but that is more likely to be a medium term prospect.

Because those are not the only reasons. Indeed neither of those is the main reason. Which is that in the long-term term extra seats would end up being profitable.

The figures show that after only 15 seasons those extra seats in the South Stand have more than paid for the total cost of the work. An admittedly very rough calculation is that the extra revenue is already double the total cost. And many more seasons yet to come.

I do not believe  there is as much unfulfilled demand for seats now as there was then, so I wouldn't expect the total cost of expansion to be paid off so quickly, although that would depend on how much debt-financing was required. But I would still expect the project to go into profit eventually, as the South Stand work did.

The basic truth is that if football clubs didn't think expanding capacity was going to end up being profitable they simply would not bother to do it.

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People are basically arguing that the relative lack of demand last season is proof that there isn't demand for more seats. I would argue that after some twelve years of selling every seat bar restricted view and single seats, and pretty much any attractive game selling out weeks in advance that it's amazing demand has stayed so high. Why is the lack of demand last season more relevant than the incredible demand which the club couldn't remotely fulfill in the preceding years?

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13 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

If we went down and most of our young talent decided to jump ship, the club could be in the odd position of making so much profit it would make sense to allocate it to something else to prevent paying a huge tax bill. Obviously that "something else" could be a squad upgrade, so could be controversial.

This thread seems to be dominated by people who've had season tickets for ages and who probably mix with people who are in the same position. The fact is supporters are a spectrum from "I'll do anything to get a ticket for every game" to "I really want to go, but only if I can sit with my mates in my favourite part of the ground" to "I'd love to go, but last time it was such a hassle getting a ticket, and I can watch it on a stream so I probably won't bother". CR has become almost a closed shop for all bar the first group of very motivated supporters and that is well-known across the region. There is no way of knowing our potential support until it becomes easier for groups of people to get tickets in areas they like to sit and that becomes known within our catchment. Supply is fixed, but demand is malleable to an extent with marketing, ticket offers, extended family area, linkups with local businesses etc. 

Totally wrong.

As one of these long term season ticket holders I can only see benefit in increased capacity. I pay £570 for my ticket. If you do the sums you will see it works out at £30 per game. That's exactly what casual tickets will cost next season. So to my reckoning with more casual tickets available the price will come down and we will pay less. To be fair we should probably be paying less this season but most of us are happy and feel we get vfm.8

There seems to be an underlying theme in here that season ticket holders are selfish. Probably stemming from jealousy because season tickets were available until after Christmas. Not tickets with restricted view or odd seats. Proper "selfish season ticket holders" seats. An investment last season would have reaped benefits this time. And you always have the option if sharing which is what my children and grandchildren do.

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Just now, nutty nigel said:

Totally wrong.

As one of these long term season ticket holders I can only see benefit in increased capacity. I pay £570 for my ticket. If you do the sums you will see it works out at £30 per game. That's exactly what casual tickets will cost next season. So to my reckoning with more casual tickets available the price will come down and we will pay less. To be fair we should probably be paying less this season but most of us are happy and feel we get vfm.

There seems to be an underlying theme in here that season ticket holders are selfish. Probably stemming from jealousy because season tickets were available until after Christmas. Not tickets with restricted view or odd seats. Proper "selfish season ticket holders" seats. An investment last season would have reaped benefits this time. And you always have the option if sharing which is what my children and grandchildren do.

 

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I'm not infering that season ticket holders are selfish at all, just that some on here don't seem to realise that there are many supporters out there who have completely different lifestyles, outlooks, commitments and priorities than them. The current state of affairs is fine for the extremely committed, the highly organized, those who can commit to a season ticket, those who don't mind sitting alone, or are not particularly choosy about which part of the ground you sit in. Many of those who do not fit into those categories have stopped trying to get tickets.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

People are basically arguing that the relative lack of demand last season is proof that there isn't demand for more seats. I would argue that after some twelve years of selling every seat bar restricted view and single seats, and pretty much any attractive game selling out weeks in advance that it's amazing demand has stayed so high. Why is the lack of demand last season more relevant than the incredible demand which the club couldn't remotely fulfill in the preceding years?

oh dear

perhaps it had to do with us being in the second year of being in the Championship

and up till now none of the whining glory hunters have come up with any proof that we might not well be in that position, or more, over the next 20 years.....the term of a loan

there is also the rather obvious fact that the club has tailored prices to ensure maximum occupancy rather than maximum reurn, which means in blunt terms that any money raised from increased capacity will not cover building costs

if we had not been promoted this seasonthis thread would not exist

as the glory hunting whiners would not demand 'their seat' and the reduction in season ticket sales and casual sales would have been a reminder of the reality of our club in the grand scheme of things

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I'll go back to my earlier suggestion - move the TV cameras to the City Stand so the ground looks more impressive ... and do nothing else for a couple of years, see where we are then 🙂

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6 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

I'm not infering that season ticket holders are selfish at all, just that some on here don't seem to realise that there are many supporters out there who have completely different lifestyles, outlooks, commitments and priorities than them. The current state of affairs is fine for the extremely committed, the highly organized, those who can commit to a season ticket, those who don't mind sitting alone, or are not particularly choosy about which part of the ground you sit in. Many of those who do not fit into those categories have stopped trying to get tickets.

 

 

I think you have been a supporter for long enough to know that's not how it works. 

I can't see anything except benefit for season ticket holders if the stadium capacity is increased. The only potential losers are our football club and supporters who only want to go in the PL.

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Posted (edited)

That the only problem with a football ground, it’s only used maybe 30 times a season for it’s true purpose, the rest of the time it’s a hindrance in finances.

If only it could be designed to facilitate more in the way of concerts, comedy gigs or other sporting vents to pay for itself.

Maybe an all seated 32,000 multipurpose stadium with retractable roof, food outlets, pubs, shops and good connections to and from the city would cost a good few hundred million, the ideal scenario would have been to build a new ground on the old LS land before it was all sold for flats and then sell the current ground, but then I suppose the demand for more than 17,000 was there back then.

So we’ve resorted to a few good pages of debate with the exception of some, but in general the old guard went to stay put, that’s pretty much a given for the short term, it’ll be interesting to see where we are this time next year and whether the will use the same finance model as for the improvements at the training ground to raise funds for the new stand. This would be a good way of those fans wanting to contribute towards the chance of additional capacity, self funding if you like. That way not all the TV money is used for expansion but can be put back into the squad.

Edited by Indy

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41 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Totally wrong.

As one of these long term season ticket holders I can only see benefit in increased capacity. I pay £570 for my ticket. If you do the sums you will see it works out at £30 per game. That's exactly what casual tickets will cost next season. So to my reckoning with more casual tickets available the price will come down and we will pay less. To be fair we should probably be paying less this season but most of us are happy and feel we get vfm.8

There seems to be an underlying theme in here that season ticket holders are selfish. Probably stemming from jealousy because season tickets were available until after Christmas. Not tickets with restricted view or odd seats. Proper "selfish season ticket holders" seats. An investment last season would have reaped benefits this time. And you always have the option if sharing which is what my children and grandchildren do.

If I'm one of the ones who gave you that impression then I apologise, as it certainly wasn't my intention. 

As a way of apology, I'll pledge £50 to the PUPs should a ground expansion (let's say 1,000 seats or more) be announced by June 30, 2020 🙂

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9 minutes ago, Indy said:

That the only problem with a football ground, it’s only used maybe 30 times a season for it’s true purpose, the rest of the time it’s a hindrance in finances.

If only it could be designed to facilitate more in the way of concerts, comedy gigs or other sporting vents to pay for itself.

Maybe an all seated 32,000 multipurpose stadium with retractable roof, food outlets, pubs, shops and good connections to and from the city would cost a good few hundred million, the ideal scenario would have been to build a new ground on the old LS land before it was all sold for flats and then sell the current ground, but then I suppose the demand for more than 17,000 was there back then.

But never let it be said you are lacking in stupidity " the rest of the time it’s a hindrance in finances.". A hindrance !

Dear god, and to think you are serious. What next ?

Sell all the players to built a huge new ground

So we’ve resorted to a few good pages of debate with the exception of some, but in general the old guard went to stay put, that’s pretty much a given for the short term, it’ll be interesting to see where we are this time next year and weather they will use the same finance model as for the improvements at the training ground to raise funds for the new stand. This would be a good way of those fans wanting to contribute towards the chance of additional capacity, self funding if you like. That way not all the TV money is used for expansion but can be put back into the squad.

You do your argument no good by lying and misrepresenting.

Firstly there are plenty of other events that take place at CR, from concerts to comedy, from conferences to corporate events.

However there is only a limited amount of those, you can only generate so much business this way'

Though at least you now recognise that extra seats won't be self financing....far from it.

Though the rest of your guff that talks of a "a good few hundred million, "is way beyond the stupidity of the 'oven glove' kid who used to post on here how Bristol Rovers were going to get a brand new stadium without it costing them a penny - not heard much from him since so I presume that all fell apart as I stated at the time.

But fear not, never let it be said that you have a limited amount of stupidity as this gem highlights "the only problem with a football ground, it’s only used maybe 30 times a season for it’s true purpose, the rest of the time it’s a hindrance in finances."

A 'hindrance' that all other sporting venues, concert halls, theatres have.

And stop trying to claim some 'moral high ground' over those who posts are merely in response to the ill informed guff that keeps getting posted on here.

Carrow Road is a hindrance..... dear me

 

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4 minutes ago, Bill said:

You do your argument no good by lying and misrepresenting.

Firstly there are plenty of other events that take place at CR, from concerts to comedy, from conferences to corporate events.

However there is only a limited amount of those, you can only generate so much business this way'

Though at least you now recognise that extra seats won't be self financing....far from it.

Though the rest of your guff that talks of a "a good few hundred million, "is way beyond the stupidity of the 'oven glove' kid who used to post on here how Bristol Rovers were going to get a brand new stadium without it costing them a penny - not heard much from him since so I presume that all fell apart as I stated at the time.

But fear not, never let it be said that you have a limited amount of stupidity as this gem highlights "the only problem with a football ground, it’s only used maybe 30 times a season for it’s true purpose, the rest of the time it’s a hindrance in finances."

A 'hindrance' that all other sporting venues, concert halls, theatres have.

And stop trying to claim some 'moral high ground' over those who posts are merely in response to the ill informed guff that keeps getting posted on here.

Carrow Road is a hindrance..... dear me

 

Hello angry Elf I wondered how long it would take you! Exactly a hindrance that all event facilities have, specifically designed for one thing......who said anything about extra seats being beneficial not me!

How many other events are put on by football grounds? Not many over the year, yes the hospitality and restaurants might be utilised but the main ground isn’t! My point....and this has a cost, even the dim like you must be aware the the ground costs money all year round!

anyway I’ll leave you to go police your Brexit Thread, leave this one alone it’s been a good debate without your angry little agenda! Go see the nurse City 1st see if she has your pills before your evening tea.

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oh dear, in a sulk are we

realised that complaining about the cost of a sporting venue being a hindrance is exceedingly stupid even for you

still far better to fall back onto the old 'distraction ' gambit, a favourite of your kind which is always easier than having to try and justify this ludicrous guff

" Maybe an all seated 32,000 multipurpose stadium with retractable roof, food outlets, pubs, shops and good connections to and from the city would cost a good few hundred million "

the latter being something we have tucked away somewhere (Watling's wallet maybe ?)

if not some friendly bank will lend it to us, after all it is not as if retail is going through a dramatic change is it ?

folk could park up in the city and leap onto to the monorail (Springfield) and head towards this new wonder of the East, that defies the failings of Castle Mall or Chapelfied, though I'm not sure where they would be located within the stadium or what rental income they would return to pay off the ' Maybe an all seated 32,000 multipurpose stadium with retractable roof, food outlets, pubs, shops and good connections to and from the city would cost a good few hundred million ' loan

but then, like many others on here reality is not really part of your argument, is it ?

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