The Positive Brexit Thread

[sonyc 5,525]

11 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Small fish, large pond, predators around. Eating our lunch.

Oh - and of course out of the SM we still have the British

There is that old saying "if you're not at the table you're on the menu" and that describes Brexit well. 

Exceptionalists seem to think the UK is the UK of around 100 years ago. That ship has sailed (to use a colonial kind of cliche😐).

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

There is that old saying "if you're not at the table you're on the menu" and that describes Brexit well. 

Exceptionalists seem to think the UK is the UK of around 100 years ago. That ship has sailed (to use a colonial kind of cliche😐).

Yes SonyC. That out-dated obsolete mindset of British exceptionalism is what defines the average Brexiter. We don't have the 'empire' anymore - we can't survive on the 'free-trade' model of the 19th century where we we imported commodities (i.e. cotton) and exported finished goods.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Yellow Fever
Anybody recall my old brilliant O level history teacher - Mr Painter ?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 hours ago, sonyc said:

There is that old saying "if you're not at the table you're on the menu" and that describes Brexit well. 

Exceptionalists seem to think the UK is the UK of around 100 years ago. That ship has sailed (to use a colonial kind of cliche😐).

And a century ago, a small ex corporal saw the weakness of that thinking and believed, and would have been right if it weren't for Churchill, that it would compel us to look after its own interests first.

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

40 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

And a century ago, a small ex corporal saw the weakness of that thinking and believed, and would have been right if it weren't for Churchill, that it would compel us to look after its own interests first.

Oddly what saved us was not British exceptionalism (that's to take nothing away from the effort or sacrifice) but the channel, poor German decisions not to prioritize the RAF as opposed to bombing cities and crucially convoys/help from the USA. What was Churchill's comment after Pearl harbour? "“went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved”. Sums it up really. 

Oddly it appears the Ruskies are making the same errors as the ex-corporal did - believing in Russian 'exceptionalism/power' & underestimating the Ukranians plus the civilian as opposed to military attacks. There is a certain analogy at play today as to then. Hopefully it will end in a similar fashion.

It was after-all, the ex Corporal who seemed to believe in German exceptionalism and look what happened to him 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

7 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Small fish, large pond, predators around. Eating our lunch or worse.

Oh - and of course out of the SM we still have the British specialty of even more red tape, job's worth and protectionism. 

Not a mention of CPTPP.

Accession to CPTPP doesn't happen until the 15th July, so it'd be a bit odd to see much about it yet.

The article's actually from Bloomberg; it's basically a complaint that the UK isn't turning into the Singapore type model project fear insisted was going to happen post-Brexit. Mention of the Activision Blizzard buyout by Microsoft being blocked highlights that. Interestingly, the US is backing us on that it appears.

Big stories saying we're not quite the worst performing economy out of the seven biggest economies in the world while we're setting corporation tax at 25% and FDI into the UK is still the second best in Europe. It's all getting a bit desperate when you think back to the cliff edge the UK was supposed to go  over and the ensuing neoliberal orgy that was supposed to happen with a 'hard' Brexit. The lack of quality of the stories of doom is being compensated for by recycling more of the same on a weekly basis.

Edited June 13, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,525]

Brexit planning and Covid.

No deal scenarios took up huge resource time...Covid policy made up on the hoof....leaving the country more unprepared.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/13/no-deal-brexit-planning-crowded-out-efforts-to-prepare-for-pandemic-covid-inquiry?

 

Early messages from the Covid inquiry which started today. I seem to recall our earlier thread on the pandemic and similar thoughts posted.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Brexit planning and Covid.

No deal scenarios took up huge resource time...Covid policy made up on the hoof....leaving the country more unprepared.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/13/no-deal-brexit-planning-crowded-out-efforts-to-prepare-for-pandemic-covid-inquiry?

 

Early messages from the Covid inquiry which started today. I seem to recall our earlier thread on the pandemic and similar thoughts posted.

We have been caught with our pants down many times through history and in some cases have got away with it because of the tenacity of our spirit. But the pandemic is likely to reveal not only bad planiing and incompetence but also greed and self interest.

[sonyc 5,525]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

We have been caught with our pants down many times through history and in some cases have got away with it because of the tenacity of our spirit. But the pandemic is likely to reveal not only bad planiing and incompetence but also greed and self interest.

Think you may well be very right. The big thing for me is that an inquiry is okay but will we act on the findings? Will we actually think about the recommendations and then either legislate or fund the things that were lacking? There will be a furore and serious grievances levelled but will things change? My fear is that they won't. And whatever they say will also be criticised!

Hancock and care homes? Johnson and following the science and not even following the spirit of the law he gravely announced for the rest of us? The fast lane contracts? The lack of preparedness? Will the NHS be better prepared ahead? Will 40 new hospitals be built?

Let's face it, we had the wrong government for a national crisis and pandemic. 

I think it's positive that people affected by the pandemic are heard. It may help them find some kind of closure for their grief 

I'm sceptical it must be said about our government - but then, many of us are.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

7 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Think you may well be very right. The big thing for me is that an inquiry is okay but will we act on the findings? Will we actually think about the recommendations and then either legislate or fund the things that were lacking? There will be a furore and serious grievances levelled but will things change? My fear is that they won't. And whatever they say will also be criticised!

Hancock and care homes? Johnson and following the science and not even following the spirit of the law he gravely announced for the rest of us? The fast lane contracts? The lack of preparedness? Will the NHS be better prepared ahead? Will 40 new hospitals be built?

Let's face it, we had the wrong government for a national crisis and pandemic. 

I think it's positive that people affected by the pandemic are heard. It may help them find some kind of closure for their grief 

I'm sceptical it must be said about our government - but then, many of us are.

It is expected that testimony will take another three years. If we have another pandemic in the meantime then I wonder if steps have been taken. An Inquiry is OK to apportion blame but we should be ready right now for any other emergency.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

38 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

It is expected that testimony will take another three years. If we have another pandemic in the meantime then I wonder if steps have been taken. An Inquiry is OK to apportion blame but we should be ready right now for any other emergency.

Of course we should but as in so many areas nowadays this country just doesn't seem to work at all - the Swedes finished their inquiry before we even decided to hold ours, and it has taken another year after we decided to hold one before anything has actually happened, and all the while the Government is still actively resisting releasing information to its own inquiry - yet another in a very long line of things which make it deeply embarassing to be British.

Third world status here we come.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

2 hours ago, sonyc said:

Brexit planning and Covid.

No deal scenarios took up huge resource time...Covid policy made up on the hoof....leaving the country more unprepared.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/13/no-deal-brexit-planning-crowded-out-efforts-to-prepare-for-pandemic-covid-inquiry?

 

Early messages from the Covid inquiry which started today. I seem to recall our earlier thread on the pandemic and similar thoughts posted.

Brexit finished up consuming the vast majority of national political bandwidth at the expense of every other issue imaginable from 2016 to our eventual exit. The economists, diplomats, and negotiators consumed by the task of leaving the European Union wouldn't have been taken away from any healthcare planning involved in tackling a pandemic.

This is just another weak argument aimed at laying yet another unrelated problem at the doors of leaving the EU.

'Lessons will be  learned' for a time, just as lessons were learned regarding financial regulation after the Great Depression, then forgotten again over time in the run up to 2008.

Edited June 13, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

8 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Of course we should but as in so many areas nowadays this country just doesn't seem to work at all - the Swedes finished their inquiry before we even decided to hold ours, and it has taken another year after we decided to hold one before anything has actually happened, and all the while the Government is still actively resisting releasing information to its own inquiry - yet another in a very long line of things which make it deeply embarassing to be British.

Third world status here we come.

 

No point moaning about the sorry state of the UK democratic process in parliament if nobody's interested in pushing for meaningful reform of the UK democratic process in parliament.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No point moaning about the sorry state of the UK democratic process in parliament if nobody's interested in pushing for meaningful reform of the UK democratic process in parliament.

Lying isn't anything to do with democracy.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Lying isn't anything to do with democracy.

Lying wasn't mentioned in the comment I was responding to.

[Yellowfuture 71]

13 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Brexit finished up consuming the vast majority of national political bandwidth at the expense of every other issue imaginable from 2016 to our eventual exit. The economists, diplomats, and negotiators consumed by the task of leaving the European Union wouldn't have been taken away from any healthcare planning involved in tackling a pandemic.

This is just another weak argument aimed at laying yet another unrelated problem at the doors of leaving the EU.

I’m not sure you are correct there, there was a new government department set up to deal with Brexit and it was seen as the “place to be” in civil the service  at the time, staff were leaving other departments or being head hunted to change roles, the brightest and the best were drawn in. This process must have affected all other departments of government with them losing their brightest and best, I can’t believe that this had no negative impact on other departmental or ministry functions across the whole. Also all departments were having to focus some of their attention on the implications of Brexit for them, further diverting some resource. I don’t thing anyone had appreciated how complex it was going to be and for a period much of government was distracted from its day job.

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

1 hour ago, Yellowfuture said:

I’m not sure you are correct there, there was a new government department set up to deal with Brexit and it was seen as the “place to be” in civil the service  at the time, staff were leaving other departments or being head hunted to change roles, the brightest and the best were drawn in. This process must have affected all other departments of government with them losing their brightest and best, I can’t believe that this had no negative impact on other departmental or ministry functions across the whole. Also all departments were having to focus some of their attention on the implications of Brexit for them, further diverting some resource. I don’t thing anyone had appreciated how complex it was going to be and for a period much of government was distracted from its day job.

None of them had a clue what to do, after they won the vote they all panicked and skulked away.

Johnson even ran away from being party leader as he realised the leavers were going to be expected to deliver, 'let May do it and we continue to lie about what Brexit means' was their policy.

Davis and his 'easiest deal in the world, could be done in an afternoon' was the most egregious statement.

They lied before Brexit, they lied during Brexit and they are still lying about Brexit. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

10 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Lying wasn't mentioned in the comment I was responding to.

I think actively resisting releasing information is akin to lying. And your constant banging on about electoral reform has beggar all to do with it either.

Yes we want reform but stick to what has happened not what if.

[sonyc 5,525]

15 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Brexit finished up consuming the vast majority of national political bandwidth at the expense of every other issue imaginable from 2016 to our eventual exit. The economists, diplomats, and negotiators consumed by the task of leaving the European Union wouldn't have been taken away from any healthcare planning involved in tackling a pandemic.

This is just another weak argument aimed at laying yet another unrelated problem at the doors of leaving the EU.

'Lessons will be  learned' for a time, just as lessons were learned regarding financial regulation after the Great Depression, then forgotten again over time in the run up to 2008.

I disagree with you very strongly. There were many stories at the time about how government was hamstrung. The sheer amount of preparatory work was unappreciated. And I happen to know this is true but don't wish to add an anecdote here because you dislike firsthand experience and mistrust it. Which is fair enough, though sometimes we need to accept another's account.

I don't think it's a weak argument whatsoever. Even if one accepts that it was true then it's hardly an earth shattering revelation. It was clear that the administration struggled. You only had to watch those daily press conferences during Covid. Truly extraordinary.

There was a paucity of talent in that cabinet. I would have preferred you to be in the cabinet than many of those characters. There were lies upon lies made about Brexit. There is a great website (think it was the Yorkshire Post) outlining every single one (based on David Davis' comments at the outset). The lies all covered up a great deal of technical problems, accompanied by bluster and faux humour by the leader, Johnson.

And yes, Brexit is a fact and I know you dislike people posting about it but it is alive as a subject as any other political issue we've lived through. It continues to affect society and our economy. It's not the end of the world but certainly it's a subject worthy of ongoing debate. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

2 hours ago, sonyc said:

I disagree with you very strongly. There were many stories at the time about how government was hamstrung. The sheer amount of preparatory work was unappreciated. And I happen to know this is true but don't wish to add an anecdote here because you dislike firsthand experience and mistrust it. Which is fair enough, though sometimes we need to accept another's account.

I don't think it's a weak argument whatsoever. Even if one accepts that it was true then it's hardly an earth shattering revelation. It was clear that the administration struggled. You only had to watch those daily press conferences during Covid. Truly extraordinary.

There was a paucity of talent in that cabinet. I would have preferred you to be in the cabinet than many of those characters. There were lies upon lies made about Brexit. There is a great website (think it was the Yorkshire Post) outlining every single one (based on David Davis' comments at the outset). The lies all covered up a great deal of technical problems, accompanied by bluster and faux humour by the leader, Johnson.

And yes, Brexit is a fact and I know you dislike people posting about it but it is alive as a subject as any other political issue we've lived through. It continues to affect society and our economy. It's not the end of the world but certainly it's a subject worthy of ongoing debate. 

Actually I'm fine with anecdotes. It's people little Dan and yellow fever who start claiming they're made up or aren't of significance when they don't like what they're hearing. You should pay attention more before putting out accusations like that.

Edited June 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,525]

42 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You should pay attention more before putting out accusations like that.

I don't do accusations LYB...not my style, if you're looking for a fight. I was referencing a comment I think you made in reply to Yellow Fever about his anecdote in a recent post. So, I remembered that and hence tried to qualify my comment about my own so as not to annoy you. To head that off at the pass as it were.

I tend to be mindful of what angers people. So, rather than accuse you perhaps you'll see it was instigated by quite a different intention. If I was to be more direct then you'd surely know about it. I would be very explicit in my criticism.

If you remain aggrieved then my apologies.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

54 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I don't do accusations LYB...not my style, if you're looking for a fight. I was referencing a comment I think you made in reply to Yellow Fever about his anecdote in a recent post. So, I remembered that and hence tried to qualify my comment about my own so as not to annoy you. To head that off at the pass as it were.

I tend to be mindful of what angers people. So, rather than accuse you perhaps you'll see it was instigated by quite a different intention. If I was to be more direct then you'd surely know about it. I would be very explicit in my criticism.

If you remain aggrieved then my apologies.

My response to yellow fever was an allusion to a criticism he made previously dismissing an anecdote I'd provided previously when he was being argumentative for the sake of it. That's what I mean about paying attention before getting on my case when others are actually the root of something.

Edited June 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

18 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

My response to yellow fever was an allusion to a criticism he made previously dismissing an anecdote I'd provided previously when he was being argumentative for the sake of it. That's what I mean about paying attention before getting on my case when others are actually the root of something.

I might dismiss an anecdote as an anecdote LYB but it was however you, nobody else, that called an anecdote from my personal experience on private education 'made up'. Nobody else.

anecdote : a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person

[sonyc 5,525]

23 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's what I mean about paying attention before getting on my case

Apologies then. But truly, I'm not getting on your 'case'. And I'm happy not to respond to any posts by the way. That way, no room for misinterpretation.

I don't agree by the way with avoidance as a method for going about life but sometimes it's a necessary strategy if folk feel 'got at' and I'm sensitive enough a person to do what I think is right - rather than what I feel. Feelings can mislead anyway. Happily, feelings pass and are temporary. Life is far too short for falling out - with anyone. I think I've mentioned before I just slipped away / became more remote from two Brexit and racist friends. I reckon everyone is happy and all can lead their respective lives and not one cross word has been spoken. Avoidance has its place. It's just not useful in the longer term.

And I'm not someone either who gives it back (i.e. in kind ...of the stuff they receive). I'm not into internet forum battles or angry exchanges. I tend to absorb stuff and then let it just fall away, dissolved. It's my expertise really and have had a lot of practice. It's a  rare occurrence to be annoyed by anyone. 

Have a lovely day in France anyway. The weather here has been wonderful for many weeks and I cannot wait for rain. Sunday looks hopeful.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

three years to wait for a covid inquiry? we'll have another pandemic before that comes to pass. Brexit proponents use every trick in the book to make out that the problems we are having are not due to the actions of our politicians, from an unfair referendum right through to the failure of Lib Dems who did not realise the importance of rejecting a referendum, or thought that nobody would listen to sirens like Farrage and Ree smoog, not to mention the rest of them hanging on to power like limpets to a rock.

Blaming Brexi for, the war we are involved in in Ukraine, the cost of living crisis, inflation, and the state of our economy, is the best our self servers and journo hacks can come up with to save their lucrative jobs and the rabble they move amongst.

Time to stop have a central Government,  lets have independent counties that organise their central international needs and obligations as THEY need it, not hanging on the strings of vested interest self servers.

Try protesting about rogue countries who chose to build their killer drones in this country, try telling councils to use their power to instigate more sustainable building regs and energy generation on every new built roof, try stopping climate criminals from ignoring their own words and carrying on as usual and you will see how political policing works. You end up in court with a cangaroo judging you according to what it is told by politicians on strings.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

3 hours ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

Brexit proponents use every trick in the book to make out that the problems we are having are not due to the actions of our politicians, from an unfair referendum right through to the failure of Lib Dems who did not realise the importance of rejecting a referendum, or

This has been corrected so many times on here that I can only assume you're intentionally lying.

The referendum legislation was introduced and passed by a Conservative majority government. The Lib Dems had nothing to do with it; no party was in a position to stop the referendum other than the Conservatives themselves.

Edited June 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,776]

 

[Barbe bleu 826]

12 minutes ago, Herman said:

 

So imports from Germany are down over the period of study and exports to Germany are unchanged. 

Our balance of trade with Germany has moved towards the positive but other than that what point are you making?  I get that the general point you'll be making is brexit=bad but in what way do these figures demonstrate that?

[Herman 9,776]

Well, Blue, as you should know by now, I tend to make no comment on whether brexit was a good or bad decision. I tend to post interesting threads, with stats, tables etc. and leave you to decide.👍

[Barbe bleu 826]

14 minutes ago, Herman said:

Well, Blue, as you should know by now, I tend to make no comment on whether brexit was a good or bad decision. I tend to post interesting threads, with stats, tables etc. and leave you to decide.👍

Fair enough.

I'm not sure what to make of it.   If this pattern were reflected across the board I'd be inclined to say that it suggests that brexit has been a good thing for average jo;  Offers a degree of protection to domestic producers without overly affecting our ability to export.

But it's daft to conclude anything on a fraction of the facts.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

8 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I might dismiss an anecdote as an anecdote LYB but it was however you, nobody else, that called an anecdote from my personal experience on private education 'made up'. Nobody else.

anecdote : a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person

That comment was sarcasm regarding Dan the tw4t's 'more made up stuff', which everybody else was happy to let slide; I was just making a general point that if everyone's going to be a d1ck and accuse people of making stuff up then it's a slippery slope.

My point about your own slipperiness in dismissing my own anecdotal observations while obviously viewing your own as important stands. But above all else, suggesting someone you don't know is stupid and autistic really marks you out as a c*nt of the first order.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie