What the f*** is wrong with society? where did it go wrong and how do we fix it?

[kick it off 1,894]

Without digressing into politics as there''s plenty of that in other threads, I''m wondering what on Earth has gone wrong with society in a cultural sense and how the hell we fix it?

Since I was a kid, I have little doubt that despite the internet and smartphones etc, society has grown interminably more stupid generally, but reading the news last night I came across a story that Snap, the company that owns Snapchat, has had $1.3 BILLION wiped off it''s valuation because Kylie Jenner has tweeted she didn''t use it very much any more.

Grown men (and women) in the finance world, wiping nearly one and a half BILLION dollars from the value of a company because a pseudo-celebrity, famous for absolutely nothing, with no discernible talent whatsoever aside from having a sister who made a sex tape with a semi-successful music producer, says that she doesn''t use their product very often anymore. WHAT THE F*** IS GOING ON?!?!?!

I don''t get Snapchat, I don''t use Snapchat etc but I understand what it is and why it''s popular with kids. I also understand from the news they made some significant changes to the user interface 3 or 4 months ago which were badly received. That does not explain to me anything about how we''re wiping over a billion dollars off a company''s value based on some talentless moron''s tweet saying she doesn''t use it much. 

Picture the scene, it''s the mid-90''s and Michael Jordan says he doesn''t eat as many Weetabix as he used to, or Will Smith says he used to really like Apple computers but he''s moved to Windows based systems, or Sarah Michelle Gellar saying she has changed shampoo brands.... Can you comprehend that translating into those companies crashing on the stock market? I certainly can''t. It wouldn''t have happened. Maybe if it had emerged that Weetabix had been using Arsenic as a flavouring product or something, but not off the basis of one "celebrity" (and they were at least real celebrities back in those days) saying they no longer use a product.

What has gone wrong here? There is a serious disconnect between logic, reason, and what now passes for reality.

On top of the stock value nonsense, how the f*** has Kylie Jenner and her whole family made careers from being talentless nobodies with a sl**ty sister? How is that a job?

Something is seriously wrong here.

Rant over.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,115]

Good rant.I heard that on the new this morning and thought WTF!? as well.I fear for our children and our grandchildren.

[SHRIMPER 328]

It just shows the shallowness of the young (as I suppose most of them are) of today.

[Herman 8,558]

[quote user="SHRIMPER"]It just shows the shallowness of the young (as I suppose most of them are) of today.[/quote]Seeing the way the young are behaving in Florida, seeing Stormzy, hearing the students talk about the lecturers strike and seeing their voting records in the last couple of elections has given me hope for the future. Some are shallow,no doubt, but I have more faith in them than some of my contempories.Saying that, I still can''t see the fascination with the talentless people that are now classed as superstars.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 150]

good rant. never used snap chat or twatter, I can''t imagine how much time people spend chatting about this that or the other s..te when they''ve got no work/nothing to sort out or repair.There could be method behind the City''s madness and falling share/profit margins. Are they able to argue that this is down to a single comment by this not the known person, malicious and without reason, and then sue them for lost revenues? Just like Ineos lawyers are trying it on with a Scottish Government that banned fracking?Thirdly it could have been a costly advertising attempt and our City Gents didn''t spot it or ignored it, because there was an underlying financial weakness in this tripe generator.

[Rock The Boat 1,180]

Snapchat?

You can''t eat it or drink it. You can''t wear it. Or ride in or on it. You can''t build a chair or a table with it, let alone a house.

It doesn''t keep you warm in winter or cool in summer.

What exactly can you do with it, usefully that is? To be honest I''m amazed that anyone would think Snapchat is worth $1,3 million dollars, let alone losing that much in one day. And all the snowflakes that have it on their phone today will shift to the next ''big thing'' in a couple of months/years time.

Look at Pokemon. That lasted five minutes. Don''t lose any sleep over it, KIO. It''s unimportant and frivolous, just like the cabbage patch doll. Just console yourself that the inventors will have made a fortune and will be crying all the way to the bank.

[First Wazzock 768]

The more technologically advanced we get the further backwards we go.

Society is broken, and, I don''t think it can be fixed. At the risk of being a dinosaur, I''ve got to say the lack of respect for authority is the start. there''s no respect for teachers, or the Police - the people who start you off in life and uphold the law. Kids know that teachers and the Police can''t discipline them. Moving on from that, manners and respect for people has gone out of the window. The fact I had to give my seat up on the bus to a lady who was older than me - but I''m no spring chicken - while the youngsters all sat there with their headphones on and gawping at their phones says it all. Once the cork is out of the bottle there is no getting it back in. The amount of violence on our streets is alarming, how do you stop it? Personally I''d treble the sentences and no getting out early. I think a stronger deterrent is needed.

In days gone by a mother would stay at home to look after her children, not have to go back to work after a short break and pass their kids on to someone else. Family life has disappeared, virtually everyone works seven days a week. There is no time together at a time where parents can start instilling whats right and wrong to youngsters.

I could go on...

[SHRIMPER 328]

You have said it all mate, spot on.

[KiwiScot 1,176]

Since I have not installed snapchat yet I''m not sure, but I''ve seen plently of attractive girls with instagrams advertising premium snapchats for videos and pics of themselves. Allowing themselves to be sell sex to to thousands without having to get thier hands dirty. Snapchat surely takes a fee. Its also probably thrives on advertising and must be voitatile to other apps becoming more popular. Whoever the young or trend setters are tuning into if they use a product it will sell. Hell if miss Jenner wears a dress, Primark probably sell a copy of it in a month.

Educate, adapt or die.

[kick it off 1,894]

So it turns out that just when you think society has hit rock bottom, new ways are found to plumb further depths.

I am of course talking about new reality TV show... The Circle. I haven''t watched it (due to having an IQ over 10) but the premise alone is enough to make me question the very fabric of society.

It''s basically big brother (which is utter sh** anyway) but the contestants never meet. They only interact through social media (despite literally living in the same block of apartments). The winner is the one with the most likes at the end.

Who the **** thought this was a good idea? Who the **** is watching the advert going "Oh my god, that looks amazing, i really want to watch talentless, narcissistic attention wh0res sitting on a computer/tablet doing absolutely nothing"?

[Herman 8,558]

I thought you youngsters were into that sort of thing.[:D]

I gave it a few minutes because the hosts looked attractive, (Stormzy has beaten me to one), but the hosts didn''t show while I was watching, and I didn''t have a clue what else was going on.All it seemed like was twitter shitposting being read aloud. What they have managed to do is raid a stereotypes agency and filled up a house with them. There''s overly-camp gay guy, cool black guy, overly confident pretty-boy and shrill overly groomed pretty girl.

Well I lasted about ten minutes or less, definitely not aimed at me and I wouldn''t want to know the people it was aimed at.

[Badger 2,270]

KIO - I don't disagree with you about the irrationality about how people behave today.

However, i would argue that you probably exaggerate the rationality of behaviour in the past!

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

[keelansgrandad 6,341]

Driving back from Windsor yesterday, my wife and I got into yet another discussion about current moralities, importances, role models etc.

Of course it is easy to say the past was better and today is beyond comprehension which is not right because there are many things such as NCFC which are constant. And of course, many things were dead wrong in the past. Listening to parents of stabbed youngsters pleading for someone to tell the police shows how wrong the "we don't snitch" attitude was and is.

But accepting the convention that when you get older you can moan, groan and rant, we waded into so many things that we could not understand.

Money was never so important as it is now. And the measure of a person's importance is now either judged on wealth or how many tweets or hits they have.

But not just money. "Reality TV" has made untalented, moronic, rude, thick people not only wealthy but important in this world. And their influence is reflected in how people speak, behave and view their peers.

This post could go on for paragraph on paragraph with individual dislikes. And what annoys me may be someone elses interest. But I do believe the values of this world and those of us currently occupying the current times are getting worse. are false and shallow.

I do honestly believe we have to put some sort of fear back into life. Maybe fear is wrong but it worked for me as I was afraid to upset my parents and thus avoided trouble and while I experimented with life as a teenager, I knew that it was a temporary thiong and I would eventually adhere to the correct values in life.

[Badger 2,270]

6 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Driving back from Windsor yesterday, my wife and I got into yet another discussion about current moralities, importances, role models etc.

Of course it is easy to say the past was better and today is beyond comprehension which is not right because there are many things such as NCFC which are constant. And of course, many things were dead wrong in the past. Listening to parents of stabbed youngsters pleading for someone to tell the police shows how wrong the "we don't snitch" attitude was and is.

But accepting the convention that when you get older you can moan, groan and rant, we waded into so many things that we could not understand.

Money was never so important as it is now. And the measure of a person's importance is now either judged on wealth or how many tweets or hits they have.

But not just money. "Reality TV" has made untalented, moronic, rude, thick people not only wealthy but important in this world. And their influence is reflected in how people speak, behave and view their peers.

This post could go on for paragraph on paragraph with individual dislikes. And what annoys me may be someone elses interest. But I do believe the values of this world and those of us currently occupying the current times are getting worse. are false and shallow.

I do honestly believe we have to put some sort of fear back into life. Maybe fear is wrong but it worked for me as I was afraid to upset my parents and thus avoided trouble and while I experimented with life as a teenager, I knew that it was a temporary thiong and I would eventually adhere to the correct values in life.

Peoples' wealth has always been something that they have been judged on. Even into my lifetime people with "posh voices;" public school backgrounds and family wealth were automatically assumed to be "better;" more suited to be officers; company directors etc.

Poorer people were considered to be "factory fodder" or at best a skilled tradesman (don't even start to talk about the position of women until recently). Less intelligent rich people got a "Gentleman's degree" from Oxford or Cambridge, before getting jobs from other "decent chaps." Even in my lifetime it has happened and I know people who have benefited from "the old school tie."

In addition in my parents' lifetime, and probably yours, your wealth determined weather you could afford to call a doctor; stay on to the sixth form, go to university etc.

I could go on as well...

[keelansgrandad 6,341]

Peoples' wealth has always been something that they have been judged on. Even into my lifetime people with "posh voices;" public school backgrounds and family wealth were automatically assumed to be "better;" more suited to be officers; company directors etc.

Way back, many of the plum in their mouths didn't have money, not anymore. They had lost a lot of it. But they had the old school tie and were able to get jobs in the civil service etc, with its tasty pension and still maintain their belief in their superiority.

Sir St John Tosspot Wankstain was outraged that the Beatles, paying 19s 6d in the pound tax were awarded the MBE. Not that he had ever done anything to deserve his title. But the hoi polloi were just not entitled.

Now we have Robbie Williams, **** of the highest order going to Royal Weddings. And coke sniffing, back scuttling chancers are considered top people because they have money.

Exactly how many people do you know who have received a medal or title because they give up their weekends to help people or sell poppies? But Sir Effing Rod Stewart or Eggs Benedict Cucumberpatch get acknowledged for doing what they enjoy and get well rewarded for. At least Lenny Henry got his for charity work. And the week the trains just stopped runnng, the chief of Network Rail gets honoured.

And the last Royal Wedding saw a bouncer marrying the Royal and people were fawning over it.

Goodness, I'm ready to explode.

[KiwiScot 1,176]

On 06/11/2018 at 20:48, keelansgrandad said:

Goodness, I'm ready to explode.

Did you you enjoy the Reverand Currys speech(or is it a sermon) in the royal wedding before the last one?

[keelansgrandad 6,341]

Did you you enjoy the Reverand Currys speech(or is it a sermon) in the royal wedding before the last one?

I didn't see the wedding and as an atheist I am not likely to concur with any pious sentiments. But I have read his sermon and I admire what he is preaching. I can enjoy such sermons for the interpretation I take from each one.

Nothing wrong with a bit of love but so much is false and unrequited by many who should know better I'm afraid.

Funny how an atheist such as John Lennon can echo the same sentiments as a servant of god. I put a lower case g so not to offend anyone.

[KiwiScot 1,176]

I just figured you might not like the sermon as it was unconventional and you had mentioned royal wedding and being annoyed. Was it the fact they fawned over it? I'm more curious though why is using a lower case g not offensive? Is it offensive to athiests to see God. written captialised?

[keelansgrandad 6,341]

I'm more curious though why is using a lower case g not offensive?

There seem to be so many Gods in action at the moment and I didn't want to just select one. Who is the supposed real one or do people genuinely believe there are more than one.

If there is one then it is not a nice one. Bit of a bully. Seems to pick on the unfortunate a lot.

 

Was it the fact they fawned over it? 

Just not a royalist. Would prefer a republic. But that is another story of course.

[Bagster 101]

In my opinion, you have to go back to the very basic question of "why we are here" 

At the moment we have the belief that we are born, we live and then we die. Prof Brian Cox and others have confirmed this theory but they are wrong! 

It is no suprise to me that when confronted with this reality people grab what they want and don't give a fig!! Why should you care , you'll be long gone!!

It is this misconception that is the building block of our society, greed and short termism are king!!

Reality is however in my opinion very different, death is not and has never been the end, rather the beginning. You will be recycled but into what? Well anything is the only answer I could give 

The mere fact that you will not escape your irresponsible behaviour, should I hope be enough for people to look after our beautiful planet and learn to share it's bounty 

As an intelligent species we have a job to do, unfortunately we don't seem to understand what that is!!

But this is the starting point of any changes you seek to make.

[king canary 6,448]

Without trying to sound like a raging communist (because I'm not) I believe most of the problems in modern society come down to capitalism (or the particular brand of capitalism we have now).

Capitalism has encouraged us to become more individualistic and more materialistic and fundamentally makes us more selfish and more shallow. The pursuit of wealth has been elevated above all else so it is hardly any great surprise to see young people now idolizing people like the Kardashians or similar- beautiful, moneyed people living the dream that we're all told we should be chasing.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,017]

I do find it all pretty depressing to be honest. Most of what you lot are saying on here about people my age could be seen as stereotyping but in my experience most of it is spot on. I agree with what king canary has said as well and in my experience of not having that mindset is that you're made to feel like a weirdo.

People look at me funny when I say i don't have snapbookchat or whatever, i know pretty much nothing about any celebrities personal life, I don't care how much money I make as long as I'm not homeless, I don't feel the need to flaunt a car or designer clothes to people, I hate most methods of online communication, I hate taking and looking at other people's selfies, I hate how everyone has to photo diary social occasions to show all their online friends how cool and popular they are, I hate the online dating aps - pure hollow vanity etc. I so don't fit in with the generation I've grown up with. I'm not proud of that either, despite how it may come across, i don't particularly want to be relatively unique in this way, I'd much rather most others were like me. 

 

What made society get into this state? Started with the natural human instinct of greed and self interest, things kicked up a gear with neoliberalism which basically told people to embrace their worst instincts and it's all been exacerbated by countless other factors, mainly the explosion of the internet and all that brought and the 2008 economic crisis. The solution? There isn't one, or one big one anyway. A slightly fairer economic system and Rupert Murdoch and his ilk finally kicking the can would be a good start, but ultimately i think the horse has bolted and things are on an unstoppable downward trajectory. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Christoph Stiepermann

[king canary 6,448]

1 hour ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

I do find it all pretty depressing to be honest. Most of what you lot are saying on here about people my age could be seen as stereotyping but in my experience most of it is spot on. I agree with what king canary has said as well and in my experience of not having that mindset is that you're made to feel like a weirdo.

People look at me funny when I say i don't have snapbookchat or whatever, i know pretty much nothing about any celebrities personal life, I don't care how much money I make as long as I'm not homeless, I don't feel the need to flaunt a car or designer clothes to people, I hate most methods of online communication, I hate taking and looking at other people's selfies, I hate how everyone has to photo diary social occasions to show all their online friends how cool and popular they are, I hate the online dating aps - pure hollow vanity etc. I so don't fit in with the generation I've grown up with. I'm not proud of that either, despite how it may come across, i don't particularly want to be relatively unique in this way, I'd much rather most others were like me. 

 

What made society get into this state? Started with the natural human instinct of greed and self interest, things kicked up a gear with neoliberalism which basically told people to embrace their worst instincts and it's all been exacerbated by countless other factors, mainly the explosion of the internet and all that brought and the 2008 economic crisis. The solution? There isn't one, or one big one anyway. A slightly fairer economic system and Rupert Murdoch and his ilk finally kicking the can would be a good start, but ultimately i think the horse has bolted and things are on an unstoppable downward trajectory. 

I think it is important to remember that culture isn't created in a vacuum- you can see direct lines from the millennial generations perceived selfish and shallow nature to the 80's 'greed is good, no such thing as society' economic outlet.

An increased focus on the individual definitely has it's benefits- see the progress in gay rights, rights for people of colour, rights for women. Yet there is also a hugely negative aspect as it seems too many people believe their individual rights automatically trump any wider social contract or sense or society. You can see it in small nonsenses like people listening to music without headphones on public transport ('I want to listen to this, **** anyone who doesn't) to much bigger issues like people worth millions of pounds doing what they can to pay less tax as if taking home £1m less when you're taking home £15m a year is some great affront to them. You can also see it in our political discourse where people are far to often viewed as economics units, rated by their productivity rather than actual people with hopes, dreams and ambitions.

I don't really know what we can do about this but I do agree it can all be profoundly depressing.

[Jools 584]

12 hours ago, king canary said:

Without trying to sound like a raging communist (because I'm not) I believe most of the problems in modern society come down to capitalism (or the particular brand of capitalism we have now).

Capitalism has encouraged us to become more individualistic and more materialistic and fundamentally makes us more selfish and more shallow. The pursuit of wealth has been elevated above all else so it is hardly any great surprise to see young people now idolizing people like the Kardashians or similar- beautiful, moneyed people living the dream that we're all told we should be chasing.

Believe me, King canary, Capitalism works and Socialism doesn't and history proves that -- There's nothing in society that a good dose of Rightwing policies can't put right.

If you think Socialism is the answer, you need to change your name to Queen canary 

[king canary 6,448]

Ahhhh my first use of the mute button...

[Jools 584]

17 hours ago, king canary said:

Ahhhh my first use of the mute button...

 

[king canary 6,448]

48 minutes ago, Jools said:

 

Unhid this post out of morbid curiosity. 

If you want to know actually why I've muted you, it is because the level of debate you provide is not worth the time. 

Your first response to me basically said 'right wing good, left wing bad, if you disagree with me you're a gay.'

You've further validated my decision my responding with a boring meme that isn't really related to anything (and also shows zero understanding of what the word 'liberal' actually means outside of the US). 

I'm happy to discuss things with people who have differing views to myself if they actually debate in some form of good faith. You don't, hence why nobody takes you remotely seriously. 

Also, double points for the fact you've just blocked someone on another thread- taking pages from the 'Liberal playbook' are we now?

[Jools 584]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

Unhid this post out of morbid curiosity. 

If you want to know actually why I've muted you, it is because the level of debate you provide is not worth the time. 

Your first response to me basically said 'right wing good, left wing bad, if you disagree with me you're a gay.'

You've further validated my decision my responding with a boring meme that isn't really related to anything (and also shows zero understanding of what the word 'liberal' actually means outside of the US). 

I'm happy to discuss things with people who have differing views to myself if they actually debate in some form of good faith. You don't, hence why nobody takes you remotely seriously. 

Also, double points for the fact you've just blocked someone on another thread- taking pages from the 'Liberal playbook' are we now?

Do you know what, King Canary, you're right and I shouldn't have butted in on this thread with such flippancy -- I've read through the thread and much of its content is interesting -- My superfluous remarks certainly added nothing to the debate and I apologise.

As you were

[Rock The Boat 1,180]

On 13/05/2019 at 08:57, king canary said:

Without trying to sound like a raging communist (because I'm not) I believe most of the problems in modern society come down to capitalism (or the particular brand of capitalism we have now).

Capitalism has encouraged us to become more individualistic and more materialistic and fundamentally makes us more selfish and more shallow. The pursuit of wealth has been elevated above all else so it is hardly any great surprise to see young people now idolizing people like the Kardashians or similar- beautiful, moneyed people living the dream that we're all told we should be chasing.

The target of your ire is misplaced. The real, deep problem in society is that people do not behave morally.

Capitalism has brought you a thousand, million benefits. You are going to live longer, healthier with more freedom, choice and enjoyment than at any other time in the past. A lot of that is due to capitalism and more precisely due to those who implemented  capitalism in an ethical and moral way. But we don't need to overstress the benefits of capitalism when we would be much better using our time to consider the importance of morality.

The guy sitting next to you on the bus listening to music without headphones isn't doing so because the fact that he lives in a capitalist society, it's because he is acting irresponsibly. He is a man-child who has yet to grow up and behave like an adult in an adult environment.In other words he is lacking a moral framework.

I think you are mistaken if you believe that the pursuit of wealth has been elevated above all else. Consider who you admire the most in the world. I doubt you will answer someone like Mark Zukerberg, and Kim Kardashian will be way off your radar, I suspect. And even if you were to admire a very wealthy person such as Bill Gates, his charitable work probably has a lot to do with it.

This holds true for left-wing figures, too. I don't think many people revere someone like Nelson Mandela for his socialist economic policies. He is remembered for his courage and bravery during imprisonment and for ending apartheid in a peaceful manner. In other words we elevate those who behave morally, especially when under duress.

Capitalism hasn't made people more selfish, and the core point from Solzhenityn's Gulag Archipelago is that Marxism doesn't make people more corrupt. The point is that we all as individuals make individual choices, and we can be either moral or immoral and that choice is up to us.

And because it is true, it is totally ridiculous to throw out generalisms such as the person taking home £15 million a year is somehow a bad guy. Because you make no distinction about how he made £15 million (perhaps he employs a thousand people?), or how he spends £15 million (perhaps he makes large donations to charity?). So instead of being overly stretched by a large amount of money, isn't it more important, from the chav on the bus to the rich guy in his Bentley, to consider that they (and by extension, we) are behaving in a moral manner?

[Jools 584]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

The target of your ire is misplaced. The real, deep problem in society is that people do not behave morally.

Capitalism has brought you a thousand, million benefits. You are going to live longer, healthier with more freedom, choice and enjoyment than at any other time in the past. A lot of that is due to capitalism and more precisely due to those who implemented  capitalism in an ethical and moral way. But we don't need to overstress the benefits of capitalism when we would be much better using our time to consider the importance of morality.

The guy sitting next to you on the bus listening to music without headphones isn't doing so because the fact that he lives in a capitalist society, it's because he is acting irresponsibly. He is a man-child who has yet to grow up and behave like an adult in an adult environment.In other words he is lacking a moral framework.

I think you are mistaken if you believe that the pursuit of wealth has been elevated above all else. Consider who you admire the most in the world. I doubt you will answer someone like Mark Zukerberg, and Kim Kardashian will be way off your radar, I suspect. And even if you were to admire a very wealthy person such as Bill Gates, his charitable work probably has a lot to do with it.

This holds true for left-wing figures, too. I don't think many people revere someone like Nelson Mandela for his socialist economic policies. He is remembered for his courage and bravery during imprisonment and for ending apartheid in a peaceful manner. In other words we elevate those who behave morally, especially when under duress.

Capitalism hasn't made people more selfish, and the core point from Solzhenityn's Gulag Archipelago is that Marxism doesn't make people more corrupt. The point is that we all as individuals make individual choices, and we can be either moral or immoral and that choice is up to us.

And because it is true, it is totally ridiculous to throw out generalisms such as the person taking home £15 million a year is somehow a bad guy. Because you make no distinction about how he made £15 million (perhaps he employs a thousand people?), or how he spends £15 million (perhaps he makes large donations to charity?). So instead of being overly stretched by a large amount of money, isn't it more important, from the chav on the bus to the rich guy in his Bentley, to consider that they (and by extension, we) are behaving in a moral manner?