Do Norwich's fans need re-structuring?

[Lewis DW 30]

I was talking to a colleague at work earlier. We were discussing a head coach suggestion that I had made. He response was to flag up a game from earlier this month that his current team didn''t win - which got me thinking... do Norwich fans expectation need re-structuring like the rest of the club?

His comment insinuating that we should only look at a head coach that only ''wins'' really baffled me... even Sir Alex''s managerial win rate wouldn''t be enough for some Norwich fans... Are NCFC fans patient enough to give this new structured club a go, or are the majority going to expect an instant rise up the league/divisions...

Talking to some canaries they talk about Norwich like a Chelsea or Manchester-sized club, where did they get this expectations from.... Norwich have under performed for years, yet people still talk like they expect them to win...

Do we as fans need re-programming? We clearly demand a lot of our club with "manager out" and booing when we''re unhappy, but maybe we''re just too expectant?

[toftwood 4]

Good O.P. We are what we are, at present a top 10 Championship team, if things go well we may end up as a bottom half Premiership team. Realistic expectations! We win some we lose some.

[king canary 8,757]

Not at all. If anything we''re intrinsically more patient than other fans. I can only imagine how Leeds/Wolves/Newcastle fans would have reacted to the run Neil took us on earlier in the season or the second season under Hughton.

I think (for me anyway) is the frustration from the fans comes from a sense of missed opportunities.

[lake district canary 4,830]

The expectation has increased over the years. Such was the success of the club in the seventies and eighties and early nineties, that being in the top division became seen as being the norm for our club, even though our relative resources were less than many other clubs.  But that success over twenty plus years from 1972-1995 (despite the odd bad year) changed the expectations. That expectation has not been met - mainly because of money.  Once we lost the financial battle in 1995, we struggled badly.  Even so, we managed through sheer creativity with finances to get the players necessary to see us up to the top flight - but every time we have done that, finances have got the better of us. However many millions we spent, other clubs had many more millions spent, making our task even harder - every time.  The Lambert/Holt era was an execption beyond normality which yes, got us back to the top, but we were still punching way above our financial weight and Hughton was not able to sustain that with the resources available.  We spent plenty on players, but other clubs spent plenty more. Such is life for our club.   Success in the future - imo - will be based on getting a consistent playing ethos at the club which builds a way of playing that will stand the test of time - such as Swansea have done. A recogniseable and established style.  That is what we should be doing imo and that should be the expectation of the fans (imo).   Get a way of playing that is attractive, passing, controlling the ball and that is pleasing on the eye - and promotion will come along as things build.  We are on that track, with young players coming through and a DOF and coach system to be in place that should make the football a lot more enterprising and consistent. The Gunn experiment and the Adams experiment were attempts at the same kind of thing - a collective approach - but the pressure of the need for more immediate success got in the way.   Lambert and AN were irons pulled out of the fire which gave us that instant success, but they were not sustainable.  Lambert would (in a lot of people''s opinion) have struggled that second year in the PL.  Hughton was on a hiding to nothing and a manager tasked with changing the whole club - which was too much for one man.  So we are where we are - and I think a lot of people are recognising it and that has been a hard pull to swallow.   Neil proved not up to the task - too old fashioned an approach in the end.  So this brave new era of DOF and head coach is finally upon us - and the expectation - I hope - is that we start to see a better and more consistent style of play, bringing the youngsters through and not making promotion the absolute target. Yes, I know aout parachute payments etc etc  and the need to get promoted asap, but there is something more important - sustainability - and there is no point in getting promoted if we do not have a consistent style and way of playing that we stick to.  What experience has taught us is that you can''t change things once you are up there - you have to get it right before you go up - and stick to it - again, like Swansea did.  The Lambert period was a one off.  Hughton failed to establish the club. The Adams period was a temporary explosion of positivity - and the Neil success a half season wonder (he will prove himself elsewhere though imo).   A roller coaster of success and failure, but underlying it there is something I think most of us can agree on - we still need a style and approach we can all believe in and buy into - and that should be the expecation.  Give us that and at least we can enjoy watching the football and see a sense of progression, rather than what we have seen in recent years, which has been stuttering and unconvincing a large part of the time. The last promotion season was amazing, but it needed a manager change to do it.  That should not be necessary in the new system. Apologies for the ramble.

[Lessingham Canary 108]

@LDC, good ramble, but in answer to the OP ?

Do Norwich''s fans need re-structuring?

Think the question is probably do football fans need restructuring? even apply that to our home nations sides, England getting beat by Iceland at a major tournament, where the fans expectations were a place in the final ?

Scotland cant even half fill Hampden for a world cup qualifier, and booing a player taking to the pitch, who goes on to become the hero of the hour.

Something is far from right?

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

Funny, I''ve never spoken to any of these canary fans who think we should be like a Chelsea or Manchester-sized club.

 

At the moment we''ve one of the strongest squads in the Championship and most fans expectations come from that, which have been sadly disappointed this season.  Next season, our squad may be relatively weaker but hopefully still strong enough for a top 6 finish and maybe competing for top 2 if reasonably well managed.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

Surely we all want Norwich to win every game?

Anything less than a win is a disappointment...isn''t that the whole point of football?

Who has been happy after walking out of Carrow Road after a defeat? (i''m sure some people have...)

[Crafty Canary 547]

The answer to this is obvious. We should expect to lose every game. That way we can never be disappointed and will often be delighted with a draw and be ecstatic when we win. Simples!

[OldRobert 38]

Not a bad ramble at all LDC.As has been said, nobody wants their side to lose but surely it''s the manner of the loss which is what can hack the fans off.  Often I have read on here ''they didn''t seem interested'' or, ''they couldn''t even complete a 5 yard pass'', stuff like that.  That''s what pi$$es off the crowd.  If we lose but every effort can be seen to have been put in to win, fans will grin and bear it.  Every team loses after all.

[Coq au vin 0]

Great post LDC, encapsulates exactly was gorn ahn and the future road ahead. I completely agree with your points.

Anyway as fans we should welcome change, be critical of poor results on the filed if consistent, but ultimately accept the club is what it is and try to enjoy the ride that is NCFC!

[Mello Yello 2,572]

No, Norwich fans'' certainly don''t need re-structuring.......Norwich fans'' should be praised for their patience, tolerance, loyalty and commitment.......

Instead of being taken for granted........by the flimsy structure at the helm......

[Nuff Said 5,963]

I''m sorry, I do think you get a lot of sh*t on here LDC because of the reputation you have somewhat unjustifiably acquired which often leads to people automatically shooting you down, but there is some utter nonsense in your ramble IMHO."Get a way of playing that is attractive, passing, controlling the ball

and that is pleasing on the eye - and promotion will come along as

things build. " - why *will* promotion come? It might be more enjoyable to watch, and I''m sure most of us would like to see the team play this way, but does it automatically guarantee sucess? Does it ****. Success is more guaranteed by a cautious, defensive style that plays the odds, minimising the likelihood of conceding, as I believe Parma has been advocating (I probably don''t do his theories justice, for which I apologise). This was Hughton''s philosophy, and is how Pulis gets his results - and do supporters enjoy it? I think we all know how most people view this way of playing, but pound for pound it has been more effective than an "attractive" style. And sadly, as you acknowledge, we have to look at the return on investment of what we spend as we are relatively underfunded for the level we want to be at.Stablity, as the new structure should encourage, is a good thing, yes. Attractive football - another good thing as it''s entertaining, and that''s a big part of why we watch games. But does it mean we will be successful? I don''t see any correlation.Also - Swansea? Yes, they have currently been in the PL for a few years, but remember the "Charlton model" we aspired to not that long ago? I would bet good money that whoever you pick as an example of "good practice" on a budget in the PL, Swansea, Southampton, Watford, whoever, won''t last ten years without experiencing at least a year of two of relegation.

[Canary Jedi 610]

This assumes we fans all have the same expectation. Speaking for me only, my expectation is for the team to be well organised, not to make stupid mistakes and to try their hardest. That''s it, nothing more. If every fan thinks that then no, we don''t need restructuring. The issue is that the team is not well organised, makes stupid mistakes and players stop trying. So we are right to demand more.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

Swansea aren''t established. They are among at least half the league who just aim for 40 points every season. That''s ok the first couple of years but after that it becomes soul destroying. If you only enjoy it when your team wins the PL is not the place to be.

[Coq au vin 0]

Swansea are also in a relegation mire. I think that last place is between them and Hull. So in that sense Swansea aren''t a role model to aspire to. I don''t think you should aspire to be anyone but yourself. Ultimately we''re Norwich, we''re the nearer major football team for a lot of people in the area, we pack out C R every week, and we do things the way we do them. I would say over the past few years we''ve done very well. Whether people like the slings and arrows is another matter. Whatever it may be you can''t say it''s been boring. The only boring part is the now where we find ourselves drifting towards this stagnant end of season run but even then the excitement of speculation remains: who leaves who comes. Maybe some fans got comfortable riding that Lambert/1st season Hughton wave, I know I did but here we are. My one concern, and I think I find myself amongst friends here, is slipping into a mid table champ team if things don''t come together. Am I being snobby? A touch, but I think we''ve come a long way now to expect more than that given, as a club, we''re moving forward.

[Dorset Canary 0]

Personally I don''t think Norwich fans do set their sights too high, by now we should have been fairly consistent in the Prem.

Unfortunately the clubs foundations were built on quicksand and couldn''t sustain success in the Prem.

I hope the club stick to their guns and continue down the route of SD & HC because that, in my opinion is where we can become successful.

Build a decent youth structure and slowly but surely bring them through the ranks (as and if they are good enough) sell them and repeat.

Not many people will agree with this post but we will never become a top six but we should aim to be a shop window and profit from younger talent.

We should be aiming to sign second tier top six kids and promise them a dream move if they become successful. Win, win for all concerned and yes that might only be one player sold every two years and will in all probability mean a few sold further down the food chain.

My two cents worth :-)

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

The reality is that the Prem is made up of two distinct groups of teams.  At the top are teams that are in reality at no real risk of relegation at the start of the season.  Then there''s a cut off and below that level, every team can have a bad season and end up scrapping it out to avoid the drop.  If you''re in the latter camp, sooner or later the odds will catch up and you''ll go down.

For example, take Fulham - in the Prem for ages but this didn''t stop them getting relegated.

 

The cut off for this divide IMO at the moment is 7th place - the teams above it are ok, everyone below it is at risk of going down every season.  As for Everton, they''re pretty much on the dividing line I''d say - probably too good to go down on one season of bad performance but I''m not completely sure.

The trick is to move up from below into the top end category, but as Leicester have shown, however good you are one season, you can still have a problem in the next one.  vice versa, a team at the top can have a few bad seasons and then find they''re no longer immune to the threat of relegation.  Just look at the teams now in the Championship.

So to get really established in the Prem, in this sense, is a massive challenge for any team like City.

[Mello Yello 2,572]

Shall we therefore blame the NCFC fans'' that consistently turn up in numbers both home and away and have done so for many seasons for our relegation?.......

Is it the fans'' fault for not being ''fan enough'' that we therefore aren''t a regular mid-table Premiership Football Club?.......

Damn those NCFC fans'' expectations.......If you want footballing success, go and support a successful club.......

[lake district canary 4,830]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]Shall we therefore blame the NCFC fans'' that consistently turn up in numbers both home and away and have done so for many seasons for our relegation?.......

Is it the fans'' fault for not being ''fan enough'' that we therefore aren''t a regular mid-table Premiership Football Club?.......

Damn those NCFC fans'' expectations.......If you want footballing success, go and support a successful club.......[/quote]

Our club is mentioned around the football world for several reasons.  Delia. Fry. Balls. Living within it''s means. A large fanbase. Yo-yo-ing. But it is also - and some of you won''t like this - talked about for fans not being realistic about expectations.  I''m as guilty as anyone because I hankered after us making a run for the top half of the premier league table and staying there...definitely not realistic! But the point is there. Our expectations outweigh our resources - or have done in the past. But that is changing. There is a bit of a reality check taking place atm imo - and we need to come through this transition period well so that other clubs and fans look at us with admiration again. Swansalona and B''nmuff in their time in the lower leagues had that admiration as attractive footballing sides with a refreshing and identifiable style of play. That is what we should aspire to and that is the first step.  Get that right and promotion will follow. 

[Mello Yello 2,572]

Reality check? I think you require a reality check.......In my employment and travels, I ''mix & fraternise'' with a multitude of many other club supporters and regularly discuss football.

Regarding NCFC, they occasionally mention our Euro ventures in the 1990s, our Wembley play-off final v Boro, Delia''s on pitch waddle and passhionate shupport rant v Man City, our successful rise from the 1st division to Prem with Lambert, our relegation, the club''s patience with AN''s tenure, Ed Balls strictly ventures, Grant Holt and other players, current form, wins draws & losses etc etc......etc......No mention of me requiring a ''reality check'' for thinking I''m not being ''realistic'' about our expectations......I think you just made that up.......

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

Yep, that''s exactly my experience too.  Most other footie fans in my experience have absolutely no idea what City fans'' expectations are, never mind whether or not they are realistic.

[Nuff Said 5,963]

I think Mello''s list is pretty much spot on, I hear more about the older stuff sadly.

[Guest]

I must admit, apart from a few snotty kids who have never been to any match, most people in Cornwall speak favourably of our club and its supporters.

And I think most would like to see us as a permanent member of the Prem.