I know better than, Alex Neil, Neil Adams, Chris Hughton, Paul Lambert & Gordon Strachan because…

[hogesar 9,672]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="Ray"]Mind the gap,

Thanks, I agree stats in and of themselves prove nothing, just because the average temperature on Jan 1st is 5 degrees doesn''t mean it will be 5 degrees next Jan 1st, in fact probably very unlikely to be, just as all the stats Prozone, etc. produce for all Prem clubs (and many others) don''t prove anything, however they do give a picture over time, insomuch we can probably predict next Jan1st will be colder than next July 1st, just as mamagers get a picture over time of who is the most likely to perform better at ''x'' or ''y''.

I think he gets adulation, as you call, it from many, as a rebuff to the scapegoating and abuse he receives from many, as Whitts does too.

I agree, a good defender but one of our greats, possibly not, however I do think he will talked about as an ultimate professional and a great club man. I also have a feeling he may just may be talked about as one of our greatest managers, time will tell on that one.[/quote]That statement is just plain wrong. The stats that I gave earlier show that over 100 games Norwich are more than three times more likely to keep a clean sheet with Martin playing at right back, than we are with him at center back. In fact we have even kept more than clean sheets in the 20 Premier League games than he has not played in at all than when he has played in the center.And I expect that if we are to keep our Premier League status for next year we are going to have to keep more than two clean sheets this season. I hope that we can do it with Martin playing at center back because it looks like he will have to play the majority of games there this season, but history does not fill me with confidence. This is why I think we should have put more effort into signing a central defender this season than we did trying to sign a striker. After all we play with only one striker and now have 5 in the squad (with 1 more out on loan), where as we play with 2 center backs and have only 4 (two of which, Wisdom and Martin, I would argue are right backs) in our squad.[/quote]

Unless you''ve hit your head really, and I mean, really hard, surely you can''t honestly claim to believe that your selective stats prove such a thing.

It would only work if for those 100 games, the rest of the team were exactly the same. No different midfielders, defenders or strikers for that matter. Oh, and I presume we played the same teams with the exact same 11''s?

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Yes Hoggy. Saved me the bother and said it so much better and clearer than my muddled post would have been. Just to add stats are more useful, not 100%, but more useful if you set the criteria before before considering your own opinion of what the outcome would be. If you go looking for something to prove Russ can''t hack it you will find it.

[R Mellie 0]

Hogesar is spot on, as was Ray, when it comes to stats, context is everything. This is why in the world of robust analysis it is necessary to factor in good raw data or information and wherever possible as much other data that can be far harder to collect and / or measure.

Some of the best (non football) analyses I''ve read contained not only statistical based analysis but lots of patterns, trends, forecasting and inferences. Stats are great and I love them, but they have to be placed in context with everything else to be meaningful.

Though easy to bat away with via another nonsense statistic, there is nothing worse than the selective statistic picked purely to support a point of view.

[R Mellie 0]

Ps. Meant to add that I know better because 100% of people I asked, said that I do...

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

What absolute twaddle, but I would expect nothing less from the "stick my head in the sand" brigade. The fact of the matter is that over 120 top flight games, which is not a small amount, we have been more defensively sound with Martin either at right back or not in the team at all. Yes other players have come and gone from that defence at the same time, but the fact remains that in three seasons and 4 games we have kept an entire of 2 clean sheets when Martin plays in the middle. That means that we have had to score two or more goals in pretty much every game when he has played at center back. I''m sorry that our clean sheet stats don''t support your "Russ is the best central defender in the world" view. Would you like me to buy you a sand pit?

[hogesar 9,672]

Would you like me to buy you this?

[IMG]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yPaoceAjL._SX395_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg[/IMG]

[Tetteys Jig 830]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]If only they had used that Football Manager game thingermebob they would see that Martin is crap. [;)][/quote]

Ironically, hes actually pretty good on that...

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="hogesar"]Would you like me to buy you this?

[IMG]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yPaoceAjL._SX395_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg[/IMG]

[/quote]

I''ve just ordered this, where would you like it delivered?

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="Iwans Big Toe"][quote user="hogesar"]Would you like me to buy you this?

[IMG]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yPaoceAjL._SX395_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg[/IMG]

[/quote]

I''ve just ordered this, where would you like it delivered?

[/quote]Wee that didn''t work. I meant this........

[ruthers1 0]

Re the sand Iwan''s BT - is that really for the posters to bury their heads in or is it for Russell (donkey) Martin to play on lol!

Well done on the stats on clean sheets - can''t say I''m surprised though.

You won''t be popular publishing them on here though - they hate being proved wrong about anything!!

[hogesar 9,672]

[quote user="ruthers1"]Re the sand Iwan''s BT - is that really for the posters to bury their heads in or is it for Russell (donkey) Martin to play on lol!

Well done on the stats on clean sheets - can''t say I''m surprised though.

You won''t be popular publishing them on here though - they hate being proved wrong about anything!![/quote]

He should be fine then, seeing as he''s not proven anything.

[westcoastcanary 173]

I have never read any post on here the tone of which could be correctly described as adulatory towards Russell Martin.

I have never read any post on here which has sought to make out that Russell Martin is a "great" CB ) or a "great" RB for that matter).

I have never read any post on here which said Russell Martin bears comparison with the best CBs to have played for NCFC.

The tenor of the posts I''ve read in defence of Russell Martin is not that he is a better CB than he is but that he is a better CB than the criticism levelled at him gives him credit for.

The fact is that every single one of the players in our squad could be replaced by a better player, and every aspect of our play could be better than it is. Defending is not a one man show, nor even a four man show. To attribute primary blame to Martin for the reduced number of clean sheets is quite simply ludicrous.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"]I have never read any post on here the tone of which could be correctly described as adulatory towards Russell Martin.

I have never read any post on here which has sought to make out that Russell Martin is a "great" CB ) or a "great" RB for that matter).

I have never read any post on here which said Russell Martin bears comparison with the best CBs to have played for NCFC.

The tenor of the posts I''ve read in defence of Russell Martin is not that he is a better CB than he is but that he is a better CB than the criticism levelled at him gives him credit for.

The fact is that every single one of the players in our squad could be replaced by a better player, and every aspect of our play could be better than it is. Defending is not a one man show, nor even a four man show. To attribute primary blame to Martin for the reduced number of clean sheets is quite simply ludicrous.[/quote]Completely agree with your point that defending is not a one mans show. Successful teams defend as a unit, all 10 outfielders. As such I have never once put the blame of conceding goals solely at the feet of Russell Martin, the same as I have never once attributed keeping clean sheets down to just him. What I have constantly tried to explain is that no matter what the posters on here, the management of Norwich City, the pundits on Sky TV or  the player himself claim, the fact remains that we are more solid defensively when Martin plays at right back. We concede less goals and we keep more clean sheets, it is a fact, not something that is even up for debate. That is because Martin is no more than an average center back but VERY GOOD RIGHT BACK! He has more in common with Gary Neville than he does Gary Cahill.We should have spent more effort on signing a better center back than the ones we currently have at the club so that Martin can be played in his best position. If Norwich City are going to survive this season they will need their best players playing in their best positions. Which means Martin at right back, Brady left midfield, Howson in the center and Mulumbu in front of the back four.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="ruthers1"]I can''t speak for the other posters on here but I

am a qualified level 2 football coach, not great I know and not up to

the names you tout here but still better qualified to have an opinion

than a lot on this message board I would imagine.[/quote]Wow!  I''m impressed ruthers.[quote user="ruthers1"]is it for Russell (donkey) Martin to play on lol![/quote]And an eye for donkeys too!  Is this the course you took?Yep, I''m impressed ruthers. [:D]

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

Well Russ is playing for Scotland again tonight, so it seems even when ''refreshing'' things Mr Strachan still rates him as one of his best two cb''s

[Indy 3,300]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="TCCANARY"]

[quote user="Indy"]I know more about subsea engineering than any of the mentioned above....[/quote]

 

Stick to subsea engineering forums then.

 

 

[/quote][:D]Thats my line of work, I wonder if such forums exist?I don''t think I''ll bother to find out.[/quote]

So you based in Yarmouth or Norwich or elsewhere?

[westcoastcanary 173]

Iwan''s Big Toe wrote:

"Completely agree with your point that defending is not a one mans show. Successful teams defend as a unit, all 10 outfielders. As such I have never once put the blame of conceding goals solely at the feet of Russell Martin, the same as I have never once attributed keeping clean sheets down to just him."

Glad we can agree on that much at least, and I''m happy to accept that you are not one of those who apparently believe that if a goal is conceded it must be the fault, if not of Martin, at least of someone in the back four.

"What I have constantly tried to explain is that no matter what the posters on here, the management of Norwich City, the pundits on Sky TV or the player himself claim, the fact remains that we are more solid defensively when Martin plays at right back. We concede less goals and we keep more clean sheets, it is a fact, not something that is even up for debate. That is because Martin is no more than an average center back but VERY GOOD RIGHT BACK! He has more in common with Gary Neville than he does Gary Cahill."

Previous posters have pointed out that your use of that statistic is methodologically unsound. Put simply, you cannot attribute the difference in clean sheets to one particular factor (RM at CB v RM at RB) unless you first eliminate alternative explanations. There are many other possible contributory factors the existence of which you ignore.

"We should have spent more effort on signing a better center back than the ones we currently have at the club so that Martin can be played in his best position."

We don''t actually know how much priority was attached to strengthening different elements of the squad. We don''t know whether, in so far as any priority was given to signing a CB, it was simply to replace Turner, or to bring in a first choice replacement for a current first choice CB. You are clear about what you think the priorities should have been, but such evidence as we have suggests that AN saw things differently and prioritised strengthening the strike force and midfield above any rejigging of his first choice back four.

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="Branston Pickle"]Well Russ is playing for Scotland again tonight, so it seems even when ''refreshing'' things Mr Strachan still rates him as one of his best two cb''s[/quote]Well what a shocker. When the competition is Christophe Berra what do you expect? It''s not like Scotland have an abundance of world class center backs to pick from is it?

[TIL 1010 4,746]

[quote user="ruthers1"] I am a qualified level 2 football coach,[/quote]What a coincidence ruthers as i remember Smudger used to tell us exactly the same. How spooky is that unless of course........No you can''t be because you have denied you are one and the same. [;)]

[Iwans Big Toe 312]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"]Iwan''s Big Toe wrote: 

"What I have constantly tried to explain is that no matter what the posters on here, the management of Norwich City, the pundits on Sky TV or the player himself claim, the fact remains that we are more solid defensively when Martin plays at right back. We concede less goals and we keep more clean sheets, it is a fact, not something that is even up for debate. That is because Martin is no more than an average center back but VERY GOOD RIGHT BACK! He has more in common with Gary Neville than he does Gary Cahill."

Previous posters have pointed out that your use of that statistic is methodologically unsound. "Put simply, you cannot attribute the difference in clean sheets to one particular factor (RM at CB v RM at RB) unless you first eliminate alternative explanations. There are many other possible contributory factors the existence of which you ignore."To put it as simply as I can, and what people who have been posting seem to be ignoring is that when Martin plays right back we concede less goals than when he plays as a center back. Yes there are other players that contribute, there are tactical changes and the quality of opposition goes up and down. But at a very simple level, and football is a very simple game in as much as you try to put the ball in the opponents goal more times than they put it into yours, WE CONCEDE LESS GOALS WHEN RUSSELL MARTIN PLAYS AT RIGHT BACK. Check the history books. I don''t know how much clearer I can put it, so I will not say any more on the subject because I feel like it''s groundhog day.

[/quote]

[nutty nigel 7,534]

How far back have you been checking these history books?

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

Unless the same defence plays in these phantom 100 games there''s no other way of knowing and breaking down into stats whether RM is better at right back or centre back. Although, this has been explained several times on this thread, and let''s be honest you''re bending the stats to meet your agenda. Maybe you''re just too dim to realise this.

[Mr Angry 1,561]

To be fair, he''s not bending any stats, they speak for themselves, it''s how he''s interpreting them.

Perhaps he would have been better off finding out how many games we won, drew or lost with RM at right back compared to at centre back.

But then again, in all likelihood, most of the Prem games he played at right back were probably under Lambert and most of the games he played at centre back were under Hughton. So did we keep less clean sheets because RM was at centre back, or because Hughton was manager?