Looks like we have no choice on RVW ?

[Lessingham Canary 99]

After Holt left, Snodgrass tried to be the dominant player in our team that third season in the prem. But for me it was like watching school football and seeing one kid trying to do everything himself and ignoring what was going on around him. Sometimes laying off good passes and crosses and scoring the occasional goal, but most of the time trying to do it all himself. I don''t doubt his ability - he showed great finishing that season - I doubt his team ethic - and I have ever since he arrived at CR. Holt was the main man previously, but when one big character leaves, another will take his place, in our case Snodgrass. What epitomised it was that penalty episode - but it wasn''t a surprise to me in the least that he did something like that. Selfish, poor decision making, trying to be the big man of the team actually made things worse overall. No-one came out if that season with much credit, from the manager downwards, Snodgrass tried, but took too much on himself - to the detriment of the rest of the team. RVW had a nightmare of a season, but he wasn''t the only one........................................

In defence of Snoddy, my view was after Holt went, a lot of responsibility was put on him by the then manager, Snoddy tried to step up to the plate, and be our talisman, he got frustrated with the way the team was set up and the way we were playing, he wore his heart on his sleeve as his spat with the snakepit showed, I don''t think he ever tried to be the big man of the team, it was poor man management by the manager, Howson used to pick the ball up would move forward and as soon as he hit the halfway line he would stop and look to play to anyone, that wasn''t because he made wrong decisions, but because he was obviously under instruction not to go any further forward and leave space behind him.

One game in particular springs to mind, Southampton away, when Snodgrass turned to the bench and was quite vocal in the way the team was playing, I believe he described it as "crap" , Snoddy was a great player for us, and Holt going certainly made life harder for him, IMO.

[lake district canary 4,540]

[quote user="Lessingham Canary"]In defence of Snoddy, my view was after Holt went, a lot of responsibility was put on him by the then manager, Snoddy tried to step up to the plate, and be our talisman, he got frustrated with the way the team was set up and the way we were playing, he wore his heart on his sleeve as his spat with the snakepit showed, I don''t think he ever tried to be the big man of the team, it was poor man management by the manager, Howson used to pick the ball up would move forward and as soon as he hit the halfway line he would stop and look to play to anyone, that wasn''t because he made wrong decisions, but because he was obviously under instruction not to go any further forward and leave space behind him.

One game in particular springs to mind, Southampton away, when Snodgrass turned to the bench and was quite vocal in the way the team was playing, I believe he described it as "crap" , Snoddy was a great player for us, and Holt going certainly made life harder for him, IMO.[/quote]

Its a fair point that he got frustrated, but he''s not paid to be frustrated. Watching him weeek in week out - and it is the same whether at the match or watching on TV - was the seeing him constantly falling over, the constant running into dead ends when there  were options ahead of him, the angst that he appeared to suffer from every time something didn''t work out, the amount of sheer wasted effort - mental and physical -  was actually painful to watch.  Seeing someone suffer so much playing football is not entertaining - some people think he was wearing his heart on his sleeve but actually, to me, he was just trying to prove something to himself all the time. Not a team player imo.  Would be better off playing an individual sport like tennis, where you can rant and rave at your own performance as much as you like, without affecting those around you.

[Lessingham Canary 99]

LDC, unfortunately he didn''t get the opportunity to prove either of us right or wrong, whenever he played for Scotland he always looks very much a team player, as he did the season previous for us, and the way Leeds fans talk about him, probably did there also. As has been said many times on here already no one really covered themselves in glory in our relegation season, in his defence it must be hard (I played football at a decent non league level and can relate, without the financial reward, to playing for "good" and not so "good" managers), maybe his ranting was his way of saying to the watching world (fans , team mates, coaching staff, board etc) HELP we are going nowhere playing the way we do. I do accept that he did not always react in the most positive way to those around him, but he suffered because he cared, IMO.

[wcorkcanary 4,336]

Good points Lessingham. He drove me mental that last season but i reckon he was driven mental himself with the cautious, hold what we have, tactics.

[Yellow Wal 314]

Lessingham Canary wrote the following post at 01/06/2015 11:04 AM:

LDC, unfortunately he didn''t get the opportunity to prove either of us right or wrong, whenever he played for Scotland he always looks very much a team player ....................

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The difference being that Gordon Strachan played him centrally whereas the inept Hughton played him wide where he was the opposition''s best defender, slowing down and negating most of our attacks on our right.

He could have been a far better player if he was not played on the right wing but more centrally. I have seen very few effective right footed left wingers and, in Snodgrass'' case, very few good left footed right wingers.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,566]

"...very few effective right footed left wingers and, in Snodgrass'' case, very few good left footed right wingers."

Really? Really?

I suggest you look at the two most effective players in world football right now.

Or look at Hazard at Chelsea, or Sanchez at Arsenal, Robben and Ribery at Munich. The inverted winger, a term which became hated on this board, is pretty much the most sort after attacking player in European football right now - pretty much every team who went deep into the Champions League had at least one - Barcelona use Messi and Neymar to both cut in from the wings onto their favoured foot.

Norwich didn''t deploy the system well and Snodgrass probably isn''t a great example of one (although he was signed from Leeds due to his ability to cut inside) but there are many, many effective inverted wingers.

[Lessingham Canary 99]

I guess a good question would be then, Now with AN firmly in place, and we have an understanding of how he wants to play, and what he expects from his players, who would fit for us now, ?

RVW, doubt he has the work rate, tenacity or attitude.

Fer, a skilled player, but lazy, especially when things not going our way.

Snoddy, a work horse, who likes a moan, can slow play up a bit, has an eye for goal.

Only one I would like to see in yellow and green, and that''s Snoddy.

[Jammy Yellow 0]

Dont shoot the messenger but one of my close friends who is currently a developmental coach for the US youth set up recons his agent has been putting his name about around the MLS.

Can actually see some truth in this however much i would love him to come back and give it another go

 

What you guys think?

[PurpleCanary 5,573]

If van Wolfswinkel is in our 25-man squad named at the beginning of September I will send nutty £25 for the PUPs.

[nutty nigel 7,555]

Beth is correct. Another example of a winger who cuts inside is Robben. Its a tactic that has been used at the very too of the game for a long time. I have great hopes for and great faith in Redmond who has more strings to his bow than Snoddy. Interestingly his developement has been largely down to Hughton and that rather exposes the myth that a defensive manager ruins an attacking player.

Its also a myth that Snoddy wasn''t a team player. He very much was and was a popular member of the squad. Still popular with them now he''s been seen supporting his ex team mates regularly in games up north while he was injured. I will always look out for his results and performances and never forget how good he was with my grandson and all the kids in that massively long queue to meet him at last years open day.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Jammy Yellow"]

Dont shoot the messenger but one of my close friends who is currently a developmental coach for the US youth set up recons his agent has been putting his name about around the MLS.

Can actually see some truth in this however much i would love him to come back and give it another go

 

What you guys think?

[/quote]For me, no.And not because I don''t rate him, but I''m not sure he is better than what we have right now.Also I would be cautious about how close he would be to his best, after such a terrible injury.

[Yellow Wal 314]

Bethnal Yellow and Green wrote the following post at 01/06/2015 11:31 AM:

"...very few effective right footed left wingers and, in Snodgrass'' case, very few good left footed right wingers."

Really? Really?

I suggest you look at the two most effective players in world football right now.

Or look at Hazard at Chelsea, or Sanchez at Arsenal, Robben and Ribery at Munich. The inverted winger, a term which became hated on this board, is pretty much the most sort after attacking player in European football right now - pretty much every team who went deep into the Champions League had at least one - Barcelona use Messi and Neymar to both cut in from the wings onto their favoured foot.

Norwich didn''t deploy the system well and Snodgrass probably isn''t a great example of one (although he was signed from Leeds due to his ability to cut inside) but there are many, many effective inverted wingers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think much depends upon what is termed a winger.

I think very few people will regard Hazard, Sanchez, Ribery, Messi and Neymar as wingers whereas Snodgrass was generally termed a right winger.

[Tetteys Jig 830]

I heard Ricky talking about America in that interview he did not so long ago on french TV, so perhaps there''s an element of truth there...

As for the inverted wingers, I agree they can be effective, but it depends what you are after. We were obviously stuck between two styles of attack under Hughton and achieved none of them. On one hand, he had the cutting in wingers, on the other, he had RvW who is a traditional striker who likes traditional byline wingers putting balls into the box for him to steal half a yard. Ironically, Jerome and Grabban are more suited to that system as they have a bit more hustle about them (i.e.making it stick and bringing the midfield into play).

The styles badly clashed and the rest is history we can thankfully now forget but make sure we don''t do again. Redmond has shown he is far better on the right (allbeit a league below) as he can be unpredictable there, he has the skill to either go to the byline and cross or to cut inside and cause havoc. Hopefully he keeps this up next season. I doubt he could operate from the left and get to the byline as effectively so he is more predictable there.

Another thing about the great inverted wingers you mention, they play most of their games on the front foot. We will be on the back foot more often than not next season and need players that can cut their cloth accordingly. That''s not to say we can''t successfully deploy them, but it makes it a lot harder.

[Jammy Yellow 0]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Jammy Yellow"]

Dont shoot the messenger but one of my close friends who is currently a developmental coach for the US youth set up recons his agent has been putting his name about around the MLS.

Can actually see some truth in this however much i would love him to come back and give it another go

 

What you guys think?

[/quote]

For me, no.

And not because I don''t rate him, but I''m not sure he is better than what we have right now.

Also I would be cautious about how close he would be to his best, after such a terrible injury.
[/quote]

 

Morty, i was referring to RVW. Although some may argue that he must have been injured having gone missing for the last two seasons.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Jammy Yellow"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jammy Yellow"]

Dont shoot the messenger but one of my close friends who is currently a developmental coach for the US youth set up recons his agent has been putting his name about around the MLS.

Can actually see some truth in this however much i would love him to come back and give it another go

 

What you guys think?

[/quote]For me, no.And not because I don''t rate him, but I''m not sure he is better than what we have right now.Also I would be cautious about how close he would be to his best, after such a terrible injury.[/quote]

 

Morty, i was referring to RVW. Although some may argue that he must have been injured having gone missing for the last two seasons.

[/quote]Ah sorry, suddenly the thread was about Snodgrass!If Ricky goes to the MLS at his age, he is pretty much accepting defeat in regards to playing football at the highest level.

[tricky974 61]

I am unsure about RVW i personnally think that AN will have a look at him unless he thinks that he has seen enough from watching dvds of what he has achived from previous seasons, i dont think it really works looking at scoring records from other leagues at times there have been plenty of players with great scoring records who have come to the premier league and not been able to score Forlan and Falco to name a couple.

I think that some of what happens is obviously going to down to what Ricky wants to do himself does he feel he has the attributes to compete in the premier league, or would he rather go back to Portugal or Holland, if there are interested partys or could he be used as a make weight im sure that within Holland there would be a team interested in him, that may suit his style of play and how he needs to be managed.

[wcorkcanary 4,336]

On the MLS thing, most of the US players are huge athletic guys, with a strong running game, not dissimilar to Germany(though not as good at it...yet).

Yet Robbie Keane, a striker with no great pace, or upper body stregth has made a fine career out there, he is a finisher though, as Ricky once was, so maybe there could be a place for him there.

Would still love AN to rebuild him though, imagine the ''Bionic Wolf'' bristling with confidence, the Flemish Fowler, the Lowland Lineker.

Now that would truly prove our Managers ability to bring out the best in a player, Up for the challenge Alex?

[jaemae2 0]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Parma Hams gone mouldy"]Morty,

If better can be obtained - easier written than realised - then you can expect a striking addition.

RVW as - say - fourth choice, should not be taken as an indication that the three in front of him will be Jerome, Grabban and Hooper as now.

At least one of those will have to show more professionalism, hunger and off-field discipline than they do currently.

Parma[/quote]Without looking at any of their contracts, I wouldn''t assume that any of them would want to leave though.And, to be honest, although they all have their shortcomings, there isn''t one in particular that you would point at and definitely say "Yeah, he''s definitely not good enough for the Premiership, and has to go" , apart from Ricky which, we are all concluding, that we will have no choice on.[/quote]

It''s pretty clear to ANYONE with a brain that Hooper is DEFINITELY not good enough for the PL. Unless you forget 3 goals from play in 32 games (24 starts, 8 MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE).

[Tetteys Jig 830]

I see Hoopers jilted ex is back...

[Miss Bum Bum 0]

The mood music from Carrow Road doesn''t sound good for rvw. No reassuring words no he has as much chance as Anyone else. No comment at all!

[kick it off 1,952]

Alex Neil is on holiday so pretty hard to judge the "mood music" really until he returns and has a chance to say something either way.

To the Snodgrass points, the one thing all those top inverted wingers have in common is they are all pretty quick. Snodgrass isn''t. Redmond is, that''s why Redmond is emerging as a player who can take a game by the scruff of the neck (over the last month or two) and why Snoddy never had that impact on a game. He was influential at times but for an Inverted Winger to do damage consistently in the top leagues, they need to be substantially quicker than he is.

Having said that, it''s sad to see so many bashing Snodgrass. Sure the penalty incident hardly covers him glory, but he was one of very few players who looked like he genuinely cared about the club, and about staying up in those last few months.

[kick it off 1,952]

Also, whoever said much of Redmond''s development was done under Hughton proving attacking players can develop under a defensive manager, I disagree. I think Redmond developed in spite of Hughton due to his natural ability. Sure Hughton gave him first team football every week which undoubtedly helped the cause, but aside from that, I don''t think he nurtured Redmond well at all. In January I was saying that if Liverpool or anyone offered 10mill for Redmond we should snap their hands off, however he is getting better and better under Alex Neil and now I wouldn''t sell him unless it was stupid money. I think AN is proving what a bad job Hughton did with Redmond''s development.

[nutty nigel 7,555]

But I remember when Redmond signed how he spoke about the great influence Hughton had on his early career and how he gave him his the chance to play and the chance to express himself every time he took the field.

He didn''t say that was in spite of Hughton. But I guess haters have to hate...

[The Great Wall Of Tettey 0]

If Alex Neil wants to give him a go for his own reasons then bring it on.

There''s no coincidence that you can look at the majority of our top 12/13 players this season and say they''ve arguably had their best year for us, some even in their careers (Jerome springs to mind). I know it''s a different division but the majority of them are the same players who had arguably their worst seasons for us. Confidence is a massive factor in football and Neil has obviously reinstated that into the squad. Players in recent weeks have gone out of the way to speak about what a great man manager he is during interviews, what''s so say he can''t motivate Ricky.

Hughton isolated the striker and Ricky is a box/shoulder of last defender forward. He''s always going to be hopeless playing in that formation??? If hughtons main aim was to play 1 forward he shouldn''t have even purchased him. he missed some easy chances but it wasn''t as if he was getting 5/6 a game like he should have been. We''re a completely different football team coming back up this season and I honestly think it''s worth persisting with him, IF Neil thinks he can do it.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,566]

Redmond only signed for Norwich due to his relationship with Hughton - Birmingham had also accepted a bid from Swansea and all things being equal, you would have imagined they would have been the more attractive offer.

To start to say, in hindsight, that everything Hughton did was bad is ridiculous and plain wrong. He got it wrong in the second season, but it doesn''t mean he is ''clueless'' or ruined players careers.

[Syteanric 1]

its very harsh to say Hoots "ruined his career"... Chris Hughton left this football club a long time ago and Neil Adams, who would have watched Ricky from Afar, decided he was surplus to requirements.

It would have been easy for Adams to have taken RVW to one side and build his confidence up, or work with him to get him to be the player so many fans wanted him to be when he first joined (myself included until I saw him in action).

Instead the club went out and bought Jerome, Grabban and Lafferty, Bought Jama Loza into the first team set up and stuck with Hooper.

A striker bought for 9 million pounds found himself 6th choice behind a kid and a player with an average at best record (laffs).

The only person who has ruined his career is Ricky himself... no stomach for a fight to try and force Adams (and AN''s to a lesser extent) hand to give him a chance... given a golden opportunity in France, barring 1 or 2 clubs, a poor division. He didnt take the opportunity and was outscored by a winger who spent most of his time at Leeds on the bench...

Was Ricky ever good enough? I dont think he was... some strikers go through purple patches in their careers, Danny Graham being one, but ultimately despite being handed the chance never take them and the past glories are what keep managers coming back.

If he''d been playing in Scotland or League 1 Ricky would be a 30 goal a season striker... but it''s too late now.. maybe America will be a better option for him, the "yesterdays men" of Gerard, Keane and Cahill, with the lower quality on offer and the big time lifestyle may suit...

but the world watching, high pressure, world of the top leagues in Europe is not Ricky''s game...

we took the risk, he never gambled...

c''est la vie.

[kick it off 1,952]

Actually, I don''t believe I ever did say everything Hughton did was bad, nor did I say he ruined Redmond''s career (??!). I stated an opinion that I think Hughton did not develop Redmond to his full potential, and that he would have developed better under a different manager.

That has nothing to do with Hughton giving Redmond first team football which I already accepted was a positive in Redmond''s development. Nor does it have anything to do with Redmond''s personal relationship with Hughton influencing his decision to come to us over Swansea (again, another positive although not related to his development).

[nutty nigel 7,555]

I find it incredible that you think, having nurtured his talent for so many years, Redmond only progressed in spite of Hughton. Like Isaid haters will always hate...

[kick it off 1,952]

If you want to keep spouting childish catchphrases then feel free, but it''s really not relevant, this isn''t "hating" on Hughton, it''s saying Redmond''s development would have been accelerated under a different coach in my opinion. Your opinion differs clearly, and that''s fine, you''re entitled to it.

[Lessingham Canary 99]

The problem with Houghton is we all are stuck with the image / haunting of relegation and that woeful 2nd season, (for the 2nd half of that season I was a hater of the way we were setting up and approaching games),

To be fair to him his sides are generally hard to beat, he took Newcastle straight back up after their relegation, as we know that''s not an easy feat, with any club. Brighton with their obvious lack of quality did give it a go at the end of the season against the likes of Watford and Bournemouth, but like most of his sides couldn''t score the goals. Hate is a strong emotion and not a nice trait,