AN v NA

[ZLF 274]

Adams did OK with a strong squad and decent investment in the summer.

However we fell 11 points of the pace because he was unable to instill the required discipline & organisation in the team to balance the attacking with the defensive elements of a game. This was evident in the incessant changes across the back four, rarely injury related.

The goals conceded as well as those points dropped could still prove costly given we are a point off top and now just a +1 goal difference from dropping back into the play offs.

[mrs miggins 0]

A Load of Squit wrote the following post at 12/04/2015 8:11 AM:

We sold quite a few players, Fer, Snodgrass, Pilkington etc.,the replacements we bought have done well, Cardiff (Pilkington) & Fulham (McCormack) bought players who haven''t done that well for them.

---------------------------------

What do you mean by et cetera as if there were more high profile players that we sold? The only players we sold that were in our 1st team were the individuals you mention, except RVW, but everyone wanted him to go. Like I said in my post, all we had to do was add to the squad, and that''s what we did, so credit to Adams and the board.

Cardiff got rid of their players and the core (very important) of their team, they tried to replace Bellamy with an always injured Pilkington. Fulham literally got rid of all their players (except parker) and bought much cheaper, sub-standard players to spend all their money (£11m) on Mccormack - who they don''t even play up front. It''s not that they''ve bought that bad, it''s that they''ve sold all their players, presumably because of high wages. But not us, that''s why we are where we are, and that''s why I disagreed with the people who said we should have a clear out.

-----------

On a side note, I think people are being extremely harsh on the Adams and Bassong scenario; none of us know what went on behind the scenes at the time. Also, at the time everyone was against Bassong as well. Turning around and saying Adams was wrong on this is a bit rich indeed. The reason why we are doing well now is not because of Bassong, he''s just 1/11 reason why we are where we are.

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

What a shame we have this instead of a thread to recognise what Adams''s achieved. When Adams resignded we were in a position to go on to do what we have. A much stronger position than Cardiff and Fulham who were enjoying similar advantages. The difficulties relegated have are well documented but Adams still managed to keep us in contention throughout the difficult Summer Window and the months leading up to January. In fact it wasn''t until the January Window closed that the togetherness of the squad really began to be apparent.

 

So we could reverse the question and ask if Alex Neil would have achieved this had he come in during the summer. And of course we can''t answer that question. Would we have got Dorans earlier. Or would Tony Andreu have been used instead of Wes had he been here earlier? Would Alex Neil have signed Cameron Jerome and Lewis Grabban? Maybe not or he may have signed people even better.

 

I''m grateful that Neil Adams guided us through the most difficult period for relegated clubs. I''m grateful that he managed to hold together a squad made up of some players on their best contracts and some enduring a 40% pay cut. Was that easy? I don''t think so. For David McNally to enthuse about Bradley Johnson''s loyalty means there must be a flip side. And the body language when this question was asked at the AGM suggested the flip side was a problem.

 

I''m sure whether we win promotion or just miss out Alex Neil will be the first to recognise Neil Adams contribution.

 

[/quote]

Very well said Nigel. [Y]

Adams was a strange appointment but gave it his best and outperformed the other relegated sides.

[mrs miggins 0]

*who sold all their players

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

Great posts by Nutty, Chicken and Zipper. Why some others have to celebrate our current success by turning on Adams is beyond me and I''m not a great fan of Adams.

If we bounce back after relegation we will have achieved a rare and notable achievement. It might be true that it is a far harder task than doing it any other way because of the disruption and fall out from relegation.

So we handled the relegation well. The Board stumped up and someone, probably Adams, kept the core of team spirit together.

We retained the players we wanted to retain and bought well other than looking after left midfield but then found a niche for BJ.

When it went wrong McNally made a bold appointment.

I don''t believe Adams would have got us promoted. A good player or coach is different to a good manager who might be neither.

Finally, for all the impact AN has had he has managed to have that impact immediately and with another manager''s players. His achievement is all the more outstanding for that.

But as for Neil Adams, for me he can always claim to have been the ''transition.'' And he had the selflessness to know when he had done all he could.

[Mello Yello 2,293]

AN v NA = NC.....(No Comparison).

 

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]A Load of Squit wrote the following post at 12/04/2015 8:11 AM:

We sold quite a few players, Fer, Snodgrass, Pilkington etc.,the replacements we bought have done well, Cardiff (Pilkington) & Fulham (McCormack) bought players who haven''t done that well for them.

---------------------------------

What do you mean by et cetera as if there were more high profile players that we sold? The only players we sold that were in our 1st team were the individuals you mention, except RVW, but everyone wanted him to go. Like I said in my post, all we had to do was add to the squad, and that''s what we did, so credit to Adams and the board.

Cardiff got rid of their players and the core (very important) of their team, they tried to replace Bellamy with an always injured Pilkington. Fulham literally got rid of all their players (except parker) and bought much cheaper, sub-standard players to spend all their money (£11m) on Mccormack - who they don''t even play up front. It''s not that they''ve bought that bad, it''s that they''ve sold all their players, presumably because of high wages. But not us, that''s why we are where we are, and that''s why I disagreed with the people who said we should have a clear out.

-----------

On a side note, I think people are being extremely harsh on the Adams and Bassong scenario; none of us know what went on behind the scenes at the time. Also, at the time everyone was against Bassong as well. Turning around and saying Adams was wrong on this is a bit rich indeed. The reason why we are doing well now is not because of Bassong, he''s just 1/11 reason why we are where we are.[/quote]Go back and read what you posted; "How can anyone compare us with Cardiff and Fulham when arguing the

ability of managers? They sold all their players because the owners

buggered up, whereas we kept all our players."

[mrs miggins 0]

should i have said ''whereas we kept basically all our players''? would it then mean the sentiment of my post wouldn''t have been lost?

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]should i have said ''whereas we kept basically all our players''? would it then mean the sentiment of my post wouldn''t have been lost?[/quote]

No because we didn''t "basically" keep all our players, we sold players just like the other two teams did and the other part of the statement is wrong;How can anyone compare us with Cardiff and Fulham when arguing the

ability of managers? They sold all their players because the owners

buggered up, whereas we kept all our players.As we were the three teams that got relegated and each club kept the manager that they were relegated with it seems OK to compare the clubs and the ability of the managers.Adams did a brilliant job in stabilising the club and maintaining a push for promotion, he did so much better than the managers of Fulham & Cardiff.

[mrs miggins 0]

Norwich 1st team out:

Fer

Snodgrass

RVW (was always going to go)

Pilkington (when fit)

Notable additions: Jerome, Grabban

Cardiff 1st team out:

Bellamy

Campbell

Cowie

Caulker

Mendal

Mutch

Cowie

Notable additions: Manga, Morrisson, Pilks (but injured for a lot of the season)

Fulham 1st team out:

Dejagah

Diarra

Duff

Hangeland

Heitinga

Karagounis

Kasami

Mitrologou

Richardson

Riise

Sidwell

Stekelenburg

Stockdale

Reither

Notable additions: McCormack (£11m)....Fotheringham

I don''t like judging things that haven''t happened, but I wish Adams would''ve taken over one of the other relegated clubs, just to see if he could''ve done as well as he did with us.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]A Load of Squit wrote the following post at 12/04/2015 8:11 AM:

We sold quite a few players, Fer, Snodgrass, Pilkington etc.,the replacements we bought have done well, Cardiff (Pilkington) & Fulham (McCormack) bought players who haven''t done that well for them.

---------------------------------

What do you mean by et cetera as if there were more high profile players that we sold? The only players we sold that were in our 1st team were the individuals you mention, except RVW, but everyone wanted him to go. Like I said in my post, all we had to do was add to the squad, and that''s what we did, so credit to Adams and the board.

Cardiff got rid of their players and the core (very important) of their team, they tried to replace Bellamy with an always injured Pilkington. Fulham literally got rid of all their players (except parker) and bought much cheaper, sub-standard players to spend all their money (£11m) on Mccormack - who they don''t even play up front. It''s not that they''ve bought that bad, it''s that they''ve sold all their players, presumably because of high wages. But not us, that''s why we are where we are, and that''s why I disagreed with the people who said we should have a clear out.

-----------

On a side note, I think people are being extremely harsh on the Adams and Bassong scenario; none of us know what went on behind the scenes at the time. Also, at the time everyone was against Bassong as well. Turning around and saying Adams was wrong on this is a bit rich indeed. The reason why we are doing well now is not because of Bassong, he''s just 1/11 reason why we are where we are.[/quote]I am only going on Wiki but that seems not entirely to be the case. It is true Fulham offloaded a vast number of players (I make it a total of 48 in transfers and loans) and some were plainly worth keeping.But most of the big names were very much at the veteran stage, such as Sidwell, Duff, Heitinga, Berbatov and Riise, whose commitment to a slog in the Championship would have to be questioned. And Wiki has Fulham actually spending more on transfers in than they received. As for Cardiff I roughly make it that they received £25m in transfer fees and spent £15m of that. Less than they received, to be sure, but still a very solid amount of expenditure.It seems we spent pretty much all we received for Fer, Snodgrass and Pilkinton, but  there is not such a great contrast between us and the two other relegated clubs. A much more telling point is that Cardiff chose as manager Russell Slade, who seems never before to have managed in the second tier, let alone the first, while Fulham held on to the discredited Magath before eventually replacing him with someone who''d never managed anyone, apart from on a caretaker basis.

[mrs miggins 0]

Steve sidwell is playing for stoke i think

Duff is playing in Melbourne

Berbatov is playing for Monaco

Riise plays for Apoel in the greek league.

Although I suppose it is subjective, these are players who would be good enough for the championship. Personally, I expect wages to be the issue

[mrs miggins 0]

not Greek, Cyprus.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]*who sold all their players[/quote]Prove it.Three teams relegated at the end of last season from the premier league: us NCFC, Fulham and Cardiff.Fulham arguably lost the most players - but the reality is most of them were youngsters that were released or the likes of Duff, Hangeland and Berbatov who are nearing the end of their careers. You could argue that they needed to keep a couple of experienced heads for the overal good of the squad but Berbatov is not one of those you want around really.Cardiff lost a number of players, but again, how many were key players in the first place? I''d say their key losses were Caulker, Mutch, Medel and Campbell. Perhaps Bellamy through retirement as well? But they also signed a lot of players to replace them and kept other key players for them like Marshall in goal, Gunarsson, Turner and Whittingham. I''d say on paper, they were just as competitive.And that''s before you throw in the likes of Bournemouth, Derby and Middlesborough who have all spent reasonably well and other teams like Blackburn who have the ability to have performed better than this season.As I have said before, to think that any team should just walk this league is just arrogant, naive and foolish.We said the same of the likes of West Ham and Leeds a few years ago, bemoaning their fans for possessing such arrogance. It''s a dangerous path to tread when you throw all respect for the opponents to the wind. It breeds complacency and an unfounded sense of entitlement.

[mrs miggins 0]

You wouldn''t want Berbatov, who is no doubt earning over £80,000 a week at one of the richest champions league clubs in the world.

I don''t think anyone said we were going walk it. My point is that whilst the other two clubs were selling their best players and ripping the heart out of their teams, we''ve kept them. I said at the start of the season we have the best team and squad in the league, but everyone knew how hard it was going to be this season.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user="chicken"]It''s threads like this that occaisionally make me feel a bit embaressed to be a Norwich fan if it means being lumped in with some really quite poor attitudes.I detailed at the beginning of the season that this league was no ''walk in the park'' which is exactly what other people thought it would be. That our team on paper should be thumping everyone else. Mainly by people who have no clue as to who plays for the opposing teams, what their form is or where they finished last season.All of this discussion about AN Vs NA and not one person has layed any king of reflection upon the players.Bassong - why are people blaming NA for this? If the rumours are true, he is damned lucky to still be at this club - he really is. I doubt very much that Adams would have shipped him off on loan for thinking he was rubbish. I suspect, as he did with all of the squad, he asked the likes of him, Pilkington, Snodgrass etc if they wanted to remain.Hindsight is a brilliant thing, but I think anyone that labels NA''s appointment as "stupid" needs to go on loan to another club where there are plenty more exampls of what "stupid" is. Blackpool anyone?Give it a rest. Football is all about calculated risks. Sometimes for whatever reason it just doesn''t quite work out. And as I have said before, NA would have been fine if we were where we were a few seasons ago and prepared to give a manager a couple of seasons to get there. Perhaps he could have done a Lambert had he had taken over in League 1 - who knows. But it was by no means disasterous.Again, I said at the beginning of the season, minimum expectation is the play-offs, automatics preferable. As the table suggests, this has been a tough old season for every side whether they stuck with their manager (Bournemouth, Derby, Middlesborough) or whether they opted to change things. All have had a dip in form.That is life. Looking back to lay blame is moronic. Comparing the success of two managers at this point is also a bit premmature. AN is succeeding with pretty much the squad that NA assembled or managed to retain. And we know for a fact that NA managed to keep hold of some players - and by that, I mean persuade them to remain here and fight for NCFC. Hoolahan signing a new deal, Redmond, Ruddy strongly rumoured with moves away and Johnson even saying that he had premier league clubs after him.Lets just put this rubbish to bed, once and for-all and concentrate on what''s next for our club. Otherwise I''ll start throwing Roeder and Grant comparisons into the mix for those that clearly can''t remember what "stupid" and "disasterous" appointments are.[/quote]

Erm. Hindsight? Most people thought it a completely unnecessarily risky appointment at the time.

I also think you will find that since we''ve had a proper manager this league has been a bit of a "walk in the park." We are averaging 2.3 points a game and if you extrapolated our form under Neil across the whole season would be about 10 points clear.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Norwich 1st team out:

Fer

Snodgrass

RVW (was always going to go)

Pilkington (when fit)

Notable additions: Jerome, Grabban[/quote]Out:End of loans/short contracts - Elmander, Yobo.Permanent players sold/loaned out - Fer, Snodgrass, RVW, Pilkington, Surman, Fox.For me, you cannot discount Elmander who was more or less our preferred striker last season, or perhaps second to Hooper? Or Yobo who was one of our first choice centre back pairing by the end of the season.Surman had been injured before being loaned out last season but very influential in our first season in the premier league and in our promotion. I think we missed his abilities last season. And NA clearly wanted to keep him and saw him as an integral part of what we were trying to do. He has gone on to be one of Bournemouths regulars both last season and this season. I suspect had we had retained him we may not have seen O''Neil signed and perhaps not Johnson on the left - it''s worked out ok maybe? Fox is quite similar, like many others, I feel he still could have given us something at this level and had been a big part of the team from league one through until the begining of last season really.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]You wouldn''t want Berbatov, who is no doubt earning over £80,000 a week at one of the richest champions league clubs in the world.

I don''t think anyone said we were going walk it. My point is that whilst the other two clubs were selling their best players and ripping the heart out of their teams, we''ve kept them. I said at the start of the season we have the best team and squad in the league, but everyone knew how hard it was going to be this season.[/quote]I wouldn''t deny that we started the season with one of the best squads in the Championship, and possibly the best. But as far as Fulham and Cardiff are concerned it is, from the statistics produced, a serious exaggeration to say they both had the hearts ripped out of their squads without reasonable replacements being brought it.The truth is that with all the advantages of the parachute payments and reinvesting money received from transfers Fulham are still in a relegation fight and Cardiff have never threatened even to get near the play-offs. Those are worse under-achievements than anything we managed earlier on this season, and the blame has to lie with bad managerial choices. Magath? And then Symons?? Russell Slade???Which brings me on to a general point I have made a few times before, but bears repeating, to give the lie to the frequent mantra that "if only we had appointed an experienced manager [almost invariably unnamed apart from Neil "Train-wreck interviewee" Lennon] we would be walking the league."It is not surprising this mantra almost always fails to mention even one or two names, because the choices made by Fulham and Cardiff and the other  Championship clubs last summer and later on show just how limited is the gene pool from which we get to pick. Stuart Pearce? Chris Powell? Neil Harris? Steve Clarke? Dougie Freedman? Gary Caldwell? Malky Mackay? Bob Peeters? David Hockaday? Darko Milanic? Gary Rowett? Neil Redfearn? Slavisa Jokanovic?With the exception of the last one, who has plainly done well but was hardly obvious choices last summer, it is a pretty disheartening list of managers with very spotty track records, none of whom would have garnered anything like universal support here and some of whom would have been treated with derision.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="mrs miggins"]You wouldn''t want Berbatov, who is no doubt earning over £80,000 a week at one of the richest champions league clubs in the world.

I don''t think anyone said we were going walk it. My point is that whilst the other two clubs were selling their best players and ripping the heart out of their teams, we''ve kept them. I said at the start of the season we have the best team and squad in the league, but everyone knew how hard it was going to be this season.[/quote]I wouldn''t deny that we started the season with one of the best squads in the Championship, and possibly the best. But as far as Fulham and Cardiff are concerned it is, from the statistics produced, a serious exaggeration to say they both had the hearts ripped out of their squads without reasonable replacements being brought it.The truth is that with all the advantages of the parachute payments and reinvesting money received from transfers Fulham are still in a relegation fight and Cardiff have never threatened even to get near the play-offs. Those are worse under-achievements than anything we managed earlier on this season, and the blame has to lie with bad managerial choices. Magath? And then Symons?? Russell Slade???Which brings me on to a general point I have made a few times before, but bears repeating, to give the lie to the frequent mantra that "if only we had appointed an experienced manager [almost invariably unnamed apart from Neil "Train-wreck interviewee" Lennon] we would be walking the league."It is not surprising this mantra almost always fails to mention even one or two names, because the choices made by Fulham and Cardiff and the other  Championship clubs last summer and later on show just how limited is the gene pool from which we get to pick. Stuart Pearce? Chris Powell? Neil Harris? Steve Clarke? Dougie Freedman? Gary Caldwell? Malky Mackay? Bob Peeters? David Hockaday? Darko Milanic? Gary Rowett? Neil Redfearn? Slavisa Jokanovic?With the exception of the last one, who has plainly done well but was hardly obvious choices last summer, it is a pretty disheartening list of managers with very spotty track records, none of whom would have garnered anything like universal support here and some of whom would have been treated with derision.[/quote]To prove the point, while I was typing this the mantra reappeared and, as usual, without  even one name being suggested as the experienced manager who would have been willing to join us who would have had us comfortably ahead of the rest.

[king canary 7,606]

Yeah I''m not going to be one of those joining a queue to hand Neil Adams credit. Just because Cardiff and Fulham have had poor seasons doesn''t mean Adams wasn''t underachieving.

He started well no doubt from October to when he left we won only 4 league games from 14. We had a slight pick up in December but the overwhelming feeling was that under Adams we were only going to get further away from the play-offs, let alone automatic promotion. As Alex Neil has shown, with a strong manager this squad is easily one of the best in the division. Leaving us 11 points off the top with half the season gone was not an achievement just because Cardiff and Fulham were further behind us.

He was heavily backed in the transfer market and I''d argue only Snodgrass and Fer were big losses to the squad. We kept the core of the team, including several proven Championship players (Howson, Johnson, Hooper etc) and added several more. Of the signings he bought in only two can be said to be unqualified successes (Jerome and Grabban) while the jury is out on most of the others for a variety of reasons.

Finally on the Bassong thing- we don''t know the ins and outs of what happens but the fact of it is we spent half the season with our best centre back on loan to a promotion rivals while the three (three!) other CB''s we signed failed to impress.

There is no way of telling if appointing any other manager in the summer would mean we''d have done better but I can''t understand the idea that Adams did a good job here.

[Baracouda 47]

My comparison of the respective managers...

NA -- It seemed a large proportion of the squad was under the microscope (i.e Whittaker). Your constantly checking whose available, the starting 11 and having a debate about whether that''s right.

AN -- No player seems to be out of his depth and under scrutiny from the fans. I don''t look at the team selection these days, under complete faith that whoever he picks is going to do a job. Sure players make mistakes from time to time that''s always going to happen.

The conclusion is AN has worked out what his players can do, and more importantly what they can''t do. Plays to their strengths and we don''t see their weaknesses.

[mrs miggins 0]

Sorry chicken, I don''t agree that Elmander (3 goals, and old and slow), Yobo (old,slow, only made less than 10 appearances) and Surman made the heart of the team. Surman''s a good player to have in the squad, but is he better than BJ, Howson, Tettey, Dorrans, Hoolahan? A good player, but he wouldn''t have gone if Adams didn''t allow it.

Is your point Purple that other managers out there who would come to us would''ve done a worse or similar job to Adams?

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Well we only had that squad because Neil Adams was here through the summer. Either that or the failings of the Fulham and Cardiff were counteracted by the foresight of ours. So step forward Neil Adams or Delia Smith. You pays your money and makes your choice. I''m more than happy to give credit to both. Just as I''m happy to credit Alex Neil for the fantastic job he''s doing now.

Why does nobody else comment on the effect the closing of the January window had? The unsettling nature of the windows is probably the biggest obstacle for relegated teams to overcome.

[king canary 7,606]

@nigel- I don''t quite understand what you are getting at there. The majority of the squad we have playing for us at the moment was assembled under Lambert/Hughton (in fact yesterday we had as many Glenn Roeder signings in the starting 11 than Neil Adams). The best players in this team had nothing to do with Adams and as I mentioned one of them was out on loan due to falling out with Adams.

I''d give quite a bit of credit to the board- it would have been easy for them to cash in on Redmond, Johson, Howson etc but they didn''t and that is one of the big reasons we were able to kick on when Neil arrived.

[mrs miggins 0]

What have I just been saying - well done Adams and the board for keeping our players whilst the others sell all of their best players.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Sorry chicken, I don''t agree that Elmander (3 goals, and old and slow), Yobo (old,slow, only made less than 10 appearances) and Surman made the heart of the team. Surman''s a good player to have in the squad, but is he better than BJ, Howson, Tettey, Dorrans, Hoolahan? A good player, but he wouldn''t have gone if Adams didn''t allow it.

Is your point Purple that other managers out there who would come to us would''ve done a worse or similar job to Adams?[/quote]Nothing is certain, Mrs M. Like the directors, I wanted Mackay, who was the obviously best-qualified experienced manager. He was a disaster at Wigan, but perhaps Wigan are on the slide, and he might have been fine for us.But, allowing for nothing being certain, absolutely that is my point. I am indeed saying that in the pool of talent, such as it is, from we get to pick there are several experienced managers on that list I have posted who have worked in the Championship this season, including for some of the big clubs, who probably would have only done as well as Adams or even worse. Russell Slade? Stuart "Dionsaur tactics" Pearce?This is not to praise Adams; only to put myself in the position the directors found themselves when Mackay turned us down. They looked at the alternatives and were almost certainly far from impressed, knew all about Alex Neil but needed to see how he got on in the Scottish Premier League, and so did what other clubs have done in similar circumstances - take a chance on the in-house candidate (while doing exhaustive due diligence on Neil).

[chicken 0]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Sorry chicken, I don''t agree that Elmander (3 goals, and old and slow), Yobo (old,slow, only made less than 10 appearances) and Surman made the heart of the team. Surman''s a good player to have in the squad, but is he better than BJ, Howson, Tettey, Dorrans, Hoolahan? A good player, but he wouldn''t have gone if Adams didn''t allow it.

Is your point Purple that other managers out there who would come to us would''ve done a worse or similar job to Adams?[/quote]Then you are exactly what I was suggesting you and the others on here who go on about how poor a job NA did are.You can''t pick and choose who you feel suits your argument - Elmander can''t not be included because you felt he was crap and then talk about first team regulars and then bring up players from elsewhere who were not 1st teamers and claim they were.Elmander played 28 games for us last season, in a league which has 38 fixtures plus cup games. He was also one of three strikers of which only one remained for this season. That to me, made him an important part of the squad last season, all be it not one that helped us stay up. He still went, we still had to replace him.Essentially, without replacing the strikers that left we had Hooper and Loza.Yobo, last season proved to be decent, he was a first team regular for most of the time he was with us bar injury. Again, with him leaving it left us short. And with Bassongs ''alleged'' attitude towards Adams.As for Surman yes, I believe he has some qualities that are better than those of some of the players you mention. His passing is brilliant, in our first season in the prem, I believe he covered more ground than most of our squad, had goals in him and a number of assists as well. And left us short on the left hand side this season when he left - something a lot of players were bemoaning. Again, Adams wanted to keep him and he was offered a new contract and played a large part in our pre-season games.Why am I arguing this?Don Cowie made 17 appearances last season for Cardiff. If he is a 1st teamer considered for your argument so is Elmander. Bellamy made 22 appearances for Cardiff last season - if 28 isn''t enough to be considered a first teamer than neither are 22.Is the picture a bit clearer now? No.Diarra - according to everything I can find, he made all of 4 appearances last season and 8 the season before, notably only one more than Boateng who you don''t list at all. Duff - made 18 appearances last season.Heitinga made 14 appearances after his January signing.Berbatov made 19 appearances for Fulham last season.Karagounis

at 37 - 19 appearances.Mitrologou

who is on a season long loan and made 3 appearances last season.Stekelenburg - 12 appearances.Stockdale

who was only really 2nd choice keeper for his time at Fulham which is probably why although he made 26 appearances last season, this amounts to almost half of the total number of appearances he has made for them.Which leaves Hangeland (25 appearances), Riise (at 33-34 made 25 appearances), Sidwell (41), Kasami (35), Richardson(32), Dejagah (24 appearances) and Reither (31). So, as you can see, it seems like one rule for slating Norwich City FC and another for building further evidence.My point re Surman and Fox is that the first had been restricted by injuries and had prior to that been an important first team member as stats prove (appearances, goals and assists) and that the then manager and club wanted to keep on board. The latter had been an important player at this level and in our first premier league season and could have been again at this level.So, again, use the same method of comparison or don''t at all.

[chicken 0]

My reflections upon this worth considering:[quote user="Baracouda"]My comparison of the respective managers...

NA -- It seemed a large proportion of the squad was under the microscope (i.e Whittaker). Your constantly checking whose available, the starting 11 and having a debate about whether that''s right.[/quote]Took over when there was great unrest within the support. Upon relegation there were a number that felt that his appointment wasn''t of the caliber of Makay, Zola or one or two of the other well publicised options (of which Lennon was not one). As such, he took on the challenge of writing the slide, balancing the squad and getting them into shape for challenging for promotion. Expectations were of a top 6 finish if automatics proved a bit beyond recovery and pushing on.No one appeared to be moaning when we looked really good.Which ever way you look at it, something needed to change. I feel for Adams because he was trying to give the fans exactly what they had wanted the season before - attractive and entertaining football. By and large you could see he was trying to do that. He did deal with the major issues in our squad, in that we had one senior striker. Jerome and Grabban have been brilliant. O''Neil was a good signing as well. And despite what some feel, I felt that Hoiveld and Cuellar were only ever meant to add competition for Turner and R.Bennett. Injury and lack of form really highlighted those.However, like I say, a change was needed.[quote user="Baracouda"]AN -- No player seems to be out of his depth and under scrutiny from the fans. I don''t look at the team selection these days, under complete faith that whoever he picks is going to do a job. Sure players make mistakes from time to time that''s always going to happen.

The conclusion is AN has worked out what his players can do, and more importantly what they can''t do. Plays to their strengths and we don''t see their weaknesses.[/quote]Neil took over with us in 7th and a gap of 11 points. He was a nobody, he inherited a solid squad but little in terms of expectation considering what had gone before him and a great many knee-jerk fans who were saying that the best we could hope for was scraping into the play-offs. As a result, the pressure was off him and the players. As it was when Lambert took over in League 1 and how the general feeling was when we returned to the Championship the season after. No one expected us to come 2nd.Neil Adams is a top chap, the only thing that was really against him was lack of time. For me, he was the right manager at the wrong time.Alex Neil is the right manager at the right time.Roeder was the wrong manager at the wrong time (ie - EVER).

[mrs miggins 0]

I agree with your point on Elmander, I thought he only made about 10 appearances for us, but in fact made nearly triple that, therefore you are correct in saying that he was indeed a key part of the team last season. Surman and Fox didn''t even get a look in when they were available.

Using the same method, Fulham ripped their team apart and started from scratch, buying a cheaper, younger side, something I''m glad we didn''t do.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

I think its mainly arrogance that prevents any credit going to Neil Adams. But his contribution has already been publicly praised by Alex Neil and probably will be again at the end of the season.

Anyway, good thread that''s given my buddy Jim Smith a reason to post amongst great wins and BJ cementing his place in our hearts by winning POTS......