AN v NA

[king canary 7,606]

@Chicken

Sorry if they don''t make any sense to you. As I''ve stated on a few occasions not having players desperate to force their way out of the club is a fairly minimal requirement for me.

Also I''m confused- you''ve gone from saying that keeping these players from demanding moves is deserving of credit yet later saying players never kick up a fuss?

I dont argue that he is a good chap and also could well be a good coach- what he achieved with under 21''s was fantastic and that deserves credit!

I think where the disagreement lies is in what we think deserves credit- and that is fine.

As for Lafferty- I''m sorry but £3m (reportedly) for 18 appearances, 1 goal and gone 6 months later is clearly a failure to me. Again maybe we have difference standards.

[king canary 7,606]

Also @Nigel- I didn''t change my views halfway through- I just clarified them as you seemed to have some difficulty understanding.

[quentin 0]

Give it a rest ffs, there''s an important match on...

[king canary 7,606]

I''m alright thanks Quentin, I''m capable of doing more than one thing of an evening.

Your input to this thread has been fantastic though.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="king canary"]Also @Nigel- I didn''t change my views halfway through- I just clarified them as you seemed to have some difficulty understanding.[/quote]

 

What in heavens name is wrong with you? We are currently striving to achieve automatic promotion back to the Premiership, there''s three games to go after today. and you can''t give your cakehole a rest and enjoy it, but would rather dwell on some negative perspective about someone who is no longer managing us. As with life, enjoy the journey or you''ll turn into a miserable old git wondering why life didn''t treat you better. 

[quentin 0]

[quote user="king canary"]I''m alright thanks Quentin, I''m capable of doing more than one thing of an evening.

Your input to this thread has been fantastic though.[/quote]

Yeah thanks, my opinion regarding the topic of the thread was that AN is proving to be a very good manager and that NA should at least warrant some credit for his contribution to the cause.What else did you want to discuss?

[king canary 7,606]

@Quentin

How much I f*cking love Johnny Howson?

As long as that makes it through Yankee''s ''what people are allowed to discuss on a public forum'' filter though ;)

[Herman 9,764]

[quote user="quentin fulcher"][quote user="king canary"]I''m alright thanks Quentin, I''m capable of doing more than one thing of an evening.

Your input to this thread has been fantastic though.[/quote]

Yeah thanks, my opinion regarding the topic of the thread was that AN is proving to be a very good manager and that NA should at least warrant some credit for his contribution to the cause.What else did you want to discuss?[/quote]That''s basically what I wrote on the second page and you gave me one of these [:@] !?

[mrs miggins 0]

Add another win to that

WWLDWWWWWWLWDDWWWWW

P=19

W=14

D=3

L=2

amazing, I can''t imagine Adams under this sort of pressure...however, once again that''s subjective ;)

[quentin 0]

[quote user="Herman "][quote user="quentin fulcher"][quote user="king canary"]I''m alright thanks Quentin, I''m capable of doing more than one thing of an evening.

Your input to this thread has been fantastic though.[/quote]

Yeah thanks, my opinion regarding the topic of the thread was that AN is proving to be a very good manager and that NA should at least warrant some credit for his contribution to the cause.What else did you want to discuss?[/quote]That''s basically what I wrote on the second page and you gave me one of these [:@] !?[/quote]

You said Adams deserved a ''hint'' of credit which I saw as a tad harsh at the time, but hey! Great result tonight, so take one of these [:)] with a ''hint'' of kind regards.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="king canary"]Also I''m confused- you''ve gone from saying that keeping these players from demanding moves is deserving of credit yet later saying players never kick up a fuss?[/quote]No, I was reflecting on your opinion that apparently players only leave when the board wants them to. I stated that they had been informed of interested parties and that clearly they had seen enough of Adams and felt that he was offering them enough to warrant them staying. The fact that they didn''t push for any of those moves and that they have reflected upon them in such a way suggests that Adams did very well. If Hughton was still here at that point they may well have moved on. The point is Adams worked to keep as much of the squad together as possible and it was a success - and that deserves credit - which you clearly have issue to give.It''s about keeping players happy, and encouraged enough to remain and be part of a good thing. That isn''t easy - you say it''s a fairly minimal requirement.After relegation from the premier league, it can be an absolutely mammoth task. If it was so minimal - why did nearly everyone have this down as the most important thing to be achieved in pre-season? Suggests it has a lot more importance than you are prepared to warrant it.Mind you, it seems your understanding of how football works does seem naive. How much power the players have.

[mrs miggins 0]

Do you think the reason why these players stayed was simply because of Adams? Surely there''s more to it than that, it''s naive to credit him with the whole squad staying, it''s not just down to him, there are many factors that play a part, he is a part of that no doubt, but lets not assume things we don''t know. Player happiness has little to do with it if they''re under contract and ''we don''t need to sell'' as Tettey found out in the summer. We have genuine quality in our team which we cannot replace easily as we''re in a lower league. I''m not saying lets not credit him with keeping the squad, but come on, it doesn''t take a genius to say ''i think I''ll stick with this squad made up of premier league players which Mcnally said I can keep because every player had a relegation clause in their contract''. The (majority of) players wanted to stay it seems, for many different reasons, and Adams should be credited as part of that process, but lets not assume he''s the reason for why they are here and haven''t all flocked to PL clubs, If you''re the best team in the league on paper tipped for an immediate return to the PL and you''re settled, like BJ for example, would you want to go? It''s not as if he''s some saviour of our club, as proved this season, quite the opposite. With every win we get, it just proves his incompetence as a manager to handle the squad ''he kept.''

[chicken 0]

Nope - I never said ALL. Others have been saying he deserves NONE.I really do wonder why people support a club and can''t just move on, accept the good and move on."Every win just proves his incompetence" - every post on this subject just highlights yours. If he was incompetent what does that make Malky? And my word people were calling for him to be manager.Adam''s wasn''t incompetent, he may not have been what we needed to see out this season, but he was far from incompetent and again, your arrogance shines through. Balanced opinion - nope.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

So another arrogant opinion is changed mid thread. So Miggo, if you didn''t mean "any manager who had been in the job for a year" what did you mean?

 

 

[mrs miggins 0]

What are you on about Nutty, I said I hold the view that any manager who had been in the job for at least a year would be a good criteria to have, in my post I said I stand by this. What don''t you understand?

Chicken, why are you bringing up Malky for? What has he got to do with us? He took over a struggling Wigan side and couldn''t help them along with Rosler who also had a great season with them the previous year, does that make him a bad manager? Is his promotion with Cardiff irrelevant? I don''t like Malky, but I''m not seeing the relevance here. It''s subjective whether he''d do well here or not, who cares?r

''Accept the good'' - that is exactly part of the discussion. Neil wasn''t good for the club in his time as manager here. By saying this it doesn''t mean he didn''t do anything good, I accept the good, but by the same token, accept the bad which you and Nigel don''t seem to do whilst ironically hating on pervious managers such as Roeder. Before Roeder came in we looked dead and buried, he came in and saved us that season, then he totally ruined everything worse than anyone could''ve ever imagined.

The results weren''t good enough under Adams. This hasn''t been acknowledged. I''ve acknowledged the good and the bad. You two seem to think because he ''loves the club,'' ''bleeds yellow and green,'' you seem to want to censor this and to not acknowledge this. We could''ve been buggered this season. If we don''t go up this season the players are more likely to leave, we have less money as a club. It doesn''t matter if ''he tried his best'' his time here wasn''t good enough. If it''s arrogant to think that then you don''t know the meaning of the word.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

I don''t understand how you can believe that any manager who''d been in a job for a year would have done better than Adams. Did Adams do that badly? Lets''s have a think. Hughton? Mackay? Lee Clark? Sami Hypia? Russell Slade? Felix Magath? Mark Robins? Ian Holloway? Stuart Pearce? Streve Evans? are just a few who qualify and have managed in the Championship this season. So are you saying that each and every one of those would have done better up to January than Neil Adams did? because it appears you are and the many dozens more who have managed at least a year in the lower leagues. And given that what is your opinion on the board who appointed Adams when any one of a hundred or so others would have been better?

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

And Miggo, I don''t think Ihave said because he ''loves the club,'' ''bleeds yellow and green,''. I don''t know who made those quotes but it wasn''t me. I pay you the respect of commenting on what you actually do say and would appreciate the same consideration back.

 

 

[king canary 7,606]

@Chicken

In my opinion players remaining depends on multiple factors that all add up to ''what is the best chance of playing Premier League football?'' Clearly players thought with tall things considered staying at Norwich gave them a better chance of that. Does some of that come down to Adams? Sure.

I''m of the belief that one of the reasons for Adams leaving when he did was that if promotion slipped any further away we were going to find it very difficult to hang on to players in January.

[simmo_2 6]

The difference is under AN Colney is run like a football club and under NA it was run like a holiday camp with NA as a redcoat. Look how the U18''s have improved also.

[mrs miggins 0]

All of those names you mention I would''ve preferred over Adams for the norwich job, I don''t know why anyone wouldn''t. You look at someone like Magath for example, now he''s managed some really big clubs, doing especially well with Stuttgart, yet you perhaps think he would''ve done a worse job than Adams because of his time spent at fulham where the context is totally different? I think Adams could''ve done a better job than Magath could''ve at Fulham but not at Norwich. The Norwich job this season is completely different to any other this season. We have the best squad in the league and we have the greatest of expectation, we didn''t need a youth team coach, we needed a manager.

Does this make Magath a bad manager? It makes him a bad manager at Fulham, but does it make him a bad manager?

But now instead of going back at the end of this season into our set-up once again, if I were Adams I''d try and get a job in the lower leagues to build up some much needed experience, like all ex players wanting to become managers.

From the people you''ve mentioned I think they would''ve done a better job than Adams. Do you think Adams would''ve done a better job than any of these managers in the Norwich job?

Now of course within this broad criteria (of ''at least one year as manager'') there are mangers better than others so I don''t expect a manager from League 2 or the scottish leagues to be anywhere near the top of the list if they''ve only been managing for as little as a year or two, however ironically enough that''s what we have.We are testing this theory by scraping towards the bottom of this list with Alex Neil yet he''s coming up trumps so far. If there was a list of all the managers that have been in the job for at least a year and put them in order of who''d come and be the right man for the job, not many people would''ve had Alex Neil very high up on that list, not many people knew who he even was.

On the subject of the board, I said before, it''s not that I want to ''be proved right'' so I don''t think it''s relevant to what we were discussing, yet nor is what i''ve said throughout the post. I could give you a list of all the managers who i''d rather have as manager than Adams but as I said before, it would take a while.

[ZLF 274]

Using the data provided earlier in this thread

NA

1st 19   LWWWWDWWDLWLDLDDWLL                      29/57 points - 50%         

Last 19  DLWLDLDDWLLDLWWDWLL                         21/57 points - 37%

AN       WWLDWWWWWWLWDDWWWWW              45/57 points  - 78%

 

All with the same players and opportunity with the one exception of Dorrans. 

              

As I said before Adams did an OK job,   he did no damage with the players signed under his watch and, together,  he & the club retained the core of a good champs squad.  

 

Unfortuantely it was clear that Neil Adams was unable to sustain our early season performance and did not look capable to maintain a position of a minimum of play offs, especially around defensive resiliance where a lack of structure and the negative impact of constant changes took its toll.     

 

That, & the subsequent results,  show how much potential was not being obtained from a powerful squad by Adams.  He did an ok job, did nothing to harm the club,  but got enough wrong to need replacing.

 

People are right - there is only one clear winner of POTS - and that has to be Alex Neil.

 

[mrs miggins 0]

''did no harm''

we''ll see zipper. We''ve had to be in extraordinary form just to get in amongst the 4 likely to go up. Just think if we gave Adams one more game to lose against Bournemouth. 3 points at this stage costs you promotion, money, players.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

neil adams had a lot of pressure to quit and if you knew one of the reasons you would all have done the same and walked away

alex neil has shown he is a better manager but neil adams had a lot of pressure inside and outside the club

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]All of those names you mention I would''ve preferred over Adams for the norwich job, I don''t know why anyone wouldn''t. You look at someone like Magath for example, now he''s managed some really big clubs, doing especially well with Stuttgart, yet you perhaps think he would''ve done a worse job than Adams because of his time spent at fulham where the context is totally different? I think Adams could''ve done a better job than Magath could''ve at Fulham but not at Norwich. The Norwich job this season is completely different to any other this season. We have the best squad in the league and we have the greatest of expectation, we didn''t need a youth team coach, we needed a manager.

Does this make Magath a bad manager? It makes him a bad manager at Fulham, but does it make him a bad manager?

But now instead of going back at the end of this season into our set-up once again, if I were Adams I''d try and get a job in the lower leagues to build up some much needed experience, like all ex players wanting to become managers.

From the people you''ve mentioned I think they would''ve done a better job than Adams. Do you think Adams would''ve done a better job than any of these managers in the Norwich job?

Now of course within this broad criteria (of ''at least one year as manager'') there are mangers better than others so I don''t expect a manager from League 2 or the scottish leagues to be anywhere near the top of the list if they''ve only been managing for as little as a year or two, however ironically enough that''s what we have.We are testing this theory by scraping towards the bottom of this list with Alex Neil yet he''s coming up trumps so far. If there was a list of all the managers that have been in the job for at least a year and put them in order of who''d come and be the right man for the job, not many people would''ve had Alex Neil very high up on that list, not many people knew who he even was.

On the subject of the board, I said before, it''s not that I want to ''be proved right'' so I don''t think it''s relevant to what we were discussing, yet nor is what i''ve said throughout the post. I could give you a list of all the managers who i''d rather have as manager than Adams but as I said before, it would take a while.[/quote]You get credit for being prepared to name names. Pretty much everyone else on this message-board who comes up with the "experienced manager" mantra when pressed as to specific people quietly slinks away from the thread.Leaving aside the fact that Magath was still Fulham''s manager in the summer and so presumably not available, to be clear - if asked by our directors in early May for your written recommendation you would have told them to tempt Magath here. Someone who had taken Fulham down. And who has not since, as far as one can tell, been offered another managerial job in English football.Failing that you would have recommended Sami Hyypia, who quickly managed to turn Brighton from a play-off team into one fighting relegation. Failing that you would have recommended Russell Slade, who has never managed in the top two tiers and who with Cardiff has not remotely threatened the play-offs, despite spent the majority of the money they received in the summer. Failing that etc etc etc.Of course Adams was a risk, because of his lack of experience, but the reality is that once Mackay turned us down the realistic alternatives were all to a greater or lesser extent damaged goods. Adams could easily have turned out better than any of them. In practice some might have done as well as he did. Some might have done better. One or two might even have fulfilled the mantra by having us clear at the top and home free. But there is not one name that would have been a guarantee at the time Adams was chosen of even just doing better than Adams in practice managed.

[mrs miggins 0]

Apologies if i''ve interpreted that wrong but, with that though you assume that the first names I''d go for would be the ones mentioned; if the club came to me and said; "we''re thinking of hiring Adams to be manager, but who would you like to see in charge" the names I''d give wouldn''t be them, yes I think they''re better candidates than him.

My point on this matter is that adams in fact could not have easily done better than any of these names shown because of the nature of the job to do here. If we were a club like Fulham for example, I wouldn''t have said that, I wouldn''t really have minded Symons or Adams. However, we are a very different prospect to Fulham, our requirements are much different.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

Appointing Neil Adams was a calculated risk, like appointing Alex Neil was a calculated risk.

If AN hadn''t worked out everyone here would be screaming how stupid the board were to appoint an unknown 33 year old and they should all be shot and hung from the Carrow Road floodlights.

In hindsight Adams looks like a mistake, but in reality he was probably about par. Relegated teams always find it harder in the first half of the season compared to the 2nd half due to low confidence/moral and uncertainties over who will stay and who will go.

Adams did a great job in guiding Norwich through these difficult times and seemed to avoid the relegation hang-over - probably due to being a pretty positive manager and putting his arm around the players. The problem was once it started to go a little wrong he didn''t know how to turn the ship back around, something many managers struggle with.

There is the feeling that Adams is a Norwich man and his name doesn''t carry outside the county, but he is very highly regarded in coaching circles and always impressed at St George''s Park when attended courses etc. The board weren''t totally stupid to appoint him as he is someone who is seen to have big potential.

Obviously Alex Neil has come in and improved things greatly and looks a very promising manager - would be foolish to make too many judgements after 15 games though.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Thank you for being honest Miggo. So you really do mean anybody. Obviously I don''t agree but all credit to you. So just so that we can try and have some saving grace for our board who appointed him can you think of any managers who would have done worse, ie not kept us in the promotion hunt?

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Its all very well comparing those records but if you''re saying Alex Neil would have repeated his record in the games Adams managed then I can''t agree. The two periods are different. In fact after Adams recruited Phelan they were averaging 2 points a game. Something Alex Neil didn''t improve on until after the Jan window shut.

I give Alex Neil huge credit for what he''sdone here. But what i won''t do is use his record as a stick to beat the previous managerwho I believe handled most of the difficulties that relegated clubs have very well.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Who switched that light on??? Where''s Warden Hodges when you need him....

[ZLF 274]

As a matter of accuracy, and before a myth grows, Phelans first (and last with Adams) league game was against Reading (at home) - as a combo the were in charge for 6 league matches gaining 10 points - an average of 1.7ppg, not 2.