AN v NA

[ZLF 274]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]if you''re saying Alex Neil would have repeated his record in the games Adams managed then I can''t agree. [/quote]

Thats not what I was saying and I am not looking for you to agree.

My point is that we were in a downward slide with the root cause being the management teams inability to resolve the obvious weaknesses with the defensive part of the team. As such change at that point was needed and rightly made.

Any manager with a 1.5 ppg average is not a bad manager, I have not said, nor do I believe he was a bad manager. However 1.5ppg was simply below the level that the squad was capable of - as we have subsequently seen. He was simply not good enough at they stage of his managerial career.

That the results have improved so dramatically with the same squad highlights the different capability levels of each manager.

[Lessingham Canary 99]

IMO, the main difference was Alex Neil has got the players onside, they are buying (it seems) into everything he wants / asks. He captured both their imagination and respect very quickly, and every member of the 1st team squad seems to be enjoying life.

With NA, I don''t think he got the same level of respect, and wile Phelan was there I never saw him smile once, and haven''t seen his body language look any different on the rare occasion I have seem on TV with Hull, (compare that to McAvoy and Holt) the difference is massive in every way, even those that don''t figure have been told exactly where they stand (Murphy, Turner etc) rather than being left to drift along.

For me its not points per game, its where we are in the table, and the spirit emanating from the players, Lambert engendered that into his team, not many managers can do that to a high level and sustain it, OUR''s can, long live Alex Neil....

[nutty nigel 7,531]

All very good points just like Chicken and others are making very good points. There is no doubt that Alex Neil has proved himself by getting the results he has with this squad. Where I differ from a lot of you is that I believe Alex Neil has proved to be the Championship''s best manager this season. I don''t believe that ''just anybody'' could have done the same thing. Or that ''just anybody'' could have done better than Adams. So in my book Adams does deserve credit for  what he achieved. If I''m wrong and ''just anybody'' could have done better, or Alex Neil was available and ready in the summer, then it''s still not Neil Adams fault and the tone of this thread should be that if we aren''t promoted the Executive Board are totally responsible. But I don''t believe that. Do you?

 

 

[Highland Canary 76]

My view was that we always had the players capable of achieving automatic promotion under an experienced manager - my preference was Lennon but others had different suggestions. Equally, I suspected than an internal, inexperienced manager would lead us to a mid-table finish. That we were above mid-table on Adams'' departure was largely attributable to the positive influence of Phelan. Thankfully, unlike the previous season, the board have acted in a more timely fashion. But, to answer the question posed, should we fail to gain promotion the board are responsible for that and the unwinding of the squad that would necessarily follow. The task for Neil in year two would be just, or even more, challenging.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Well of course hind sight is a wonderful thing but since the summer the best clubs Lennon and Mackay could get, Bolton and Wigan, have hardly proved either would have been better than Adams. So the board at Norwich City are probably congratulating themselves for not listening to the good folk on here. Again!

 

 

[Highland Canary 76]

Adams didn''t last very long so, it could be argued, neither his initial appointment nor his subsequent appointment, points to strategic genius from the board.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

It could also be argued that Lennon & McCartney, sorry Mackay, wouldn''t have got as many points as Adams did. I notice the board werenempted with the choices of this message board after Adams either.

 

 

 

 

[mrs miggins 0]

nutty nigel wrote the following post at 15/04/2015 11:40 AM:

Thank you for being honest Miggo. So you really do mean anybody. Obviously I don''t agree but all credit to you. So just so that we can try and have some saving grace for our board who appointed him can you think of any managers who would have done worse, ie not kept us in the promotion hunt?

----------------------------------------

Being honest? Ive just stated my opinion thats all.

Its fine that you disagree but I still wonder why you think Adams is better than a manager that we could''ve got, e.g Lennon?

The point is that its not just anybody. If it was just anybody (in football terms, not literally just anybody as to not discredit assistant managers or coaches) then Adams would come into it along with people like Kit Symons, as I said before. So it''s not about just anybody as I''m being more picky and selective than you.

I think we should have a minimum requirement. Alex Neil is that around that minimum requirement, having just over a year in management, and to me there''s no contest between the two.

If this was not the case and we dropped even further when Alex Neil came in i''d say that I am completely wrong and the criteria for the managers role that I said at the start and still now was wrong or a load of b0ll0cks. (This may seem like I''m just trying to be ''proved right'' but I''m just trying to explain my point in a different way because mistakes are still being made.)

I feel I''ve explained my opinion in the best ways I can, what I still don''t understand, and still hasn''t been answered is why people think the results were good enough and why he was good enough? Surely the results weren''t ''OK'' like a few people have said (however this depends on your expectations which are vastly different to the club), the results were poor when compared to the clubs expectation. I''ve heard about everything other than the results...in a results business.

I''d also like to know how Nutty can justify the following: nutty nigel wrote the following post at 15/04/2015 8:51 PM:"Well of course hind sight is a wonderful thing but since the summer the best clubs Lennon and Mackay could get, Bolton and Wigan, have hardly proved either would have been better than Adams. So the board at Norwich City are probably congratulating themselves for not listening to the good folk on here. Again!"

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="mrs miggins"] I''d also like

to know how Nutty can justify the following: nutty nigel wrote the following

post at 15/04/2015 8:51 PM:"Well of course hind sight is a wonderful thing but

since the summer the best clubs Lennon and Mackay could get, Bolton and Wigan,

have hardly proved either would have been better than Adams. So the board at

Norwich City are probably congratulating themselves for not listening to the

good folk on here. Again!"[/quote]

 

What do you want me to justify? We have the boards choice, Neil Adams, who resigned in January when we were 3 points off the play-offs. We have the two main choices on this forum, Mackay and Lennon, who have done nothing at Wigan or Bolton to suggest they''d have done better. Now we have Alex Neil who was derided by many (not you Miggo) and once again MacKay and Lennon showed nothing at their clubs to suggest they''d have done better.

 

Of course people can say that Lennon or Mackay would have got us promoted by Christmas or whatever. But in my opinion nothing either did in the Championship this season suggests that would have happened.

[mrs miggins 0]

I meant how can you justify saying a statement like that.

mackay got a team worse than us promoted to the PL. Lennon''s done a good job with Bolton this season.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]I meant how can you justify saying a statement like that.

mackay got a team worse than us promoted to the PL. Lennon''s done a good job with Bolton this season.[/quote]

Miggo, I love you to bits ''n''all but why do you continually want to debate with me things I don''t say.

 

Again - I don''t believe Lennon or MacKay did anything at Bolton and Wigan this season to suggest they''d have done better than Adams or Neil here. And I can justify that just as easily as you can justify your any manager scenario. Or others can justify their opinion that Lennon or Mackay would have done better. It''s the same rules for us all y''know....

 

 

 

 

[mrs miggins 0]

could you at least answer the question about why you think Adams'' result were not dreadful when our expectation is promotion, set by the club, who''ve also acknowledged that we''ve got the best squad. Thanks in advance.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Quite simply because I don''t believe that this league is the walk in the park that you do. If so then QPR would have won it by Christmas last year with Redknapp in charge of that squad.

 

Here''s one for you. If it was as easy as you make out, and all they had to do was appoint just about anybody, how did our board get it so wrong. McNally seems to make a lot of money through knowing a lot less than the posters on this message board. Or maybe it''s not really that simple...

 

 

[93vintage 16]

There''s a lot of ''little old Norwich'' syndrome on display. Nothing''s that bad or terrible or not good enough, we''ve done our best etc. Any constructive critisism however valid is likely to be argued against or picked apart by certain posters to make things appear less bad.It''s not just the results or league position under Adams that was at fault. For whatever reason the standard of play just wasn''t up to scratch. We had a good enough squad to improve the quality of our play while not falling from 1st to 11th and leaving ourselves with a mountain to climb.The club was always going to face criticism if we weren''t consistently up near the top, even more so if the manager was someone with no real experience. But then of course no one else but Adams was available or wanted to come here.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

"Little old Norwich syndrome" is in the house!

But using the phrase "certain posters" is the sign of the cowardly.

When has our club ever been "little old Norwich"? Certainly never in my time supporting. WWhere''s your pride man??

[king canary 7,605]

@Nigel

Thinking we should have been doing better than we were doesn''t mean thinking we would walk the league. I always knew it would be tough but that doesn''t make underachievement ok.

[Duncan Edwards 2,231]

We''ve got our Norwich back...

[morty 0]

[quote user="Pauls Ferry"]We''ve got our Norwich back...[/quote]Again[;)]

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

I would say this is great banter, but it''s really not.

[Duncan Edwards 2,231]

Not sure it''s supposed to be, is it?

[mrs miggins 0]

nutty nigel wrote the following post at 15/04/2015 11:10 PM:

Quite simply because I don''t believe that this league is the walk in the park that you do. If so then QPR would have won it by Christmas last year with Redknapp in charge of that squad.

-----------------------------

What an incredibly poor answer, if you can call it an answer.

"Quite simply because I don''t believe that this league is the walk in the park that you do."

The question- "why you think Adams'' result were not dreadful when our expectation is promotion, set by the club, who''ve also acknowledged that we''ve got the best squad?" this hasn''t answered it. Although I''ve always said, and you can also see it in this thread, that it would be a hard season, this doesn''t explain why you don''t think our results were poor. You''ve obviously tried to turn the question around to put words in my mouth to draw the attention away from what your opinion is. Luckily my words are there to see in this thread. I now see why you made a point that I was being honest. You clearly see honesty and opinion as separate.

"If so then QPR would have won it by Christmas last year with Redknapp in charge of that squad."

Doesn''t make any sense what so ever and doesn''t have any relation to Norwich, and of course, doesn''t answer the question.

I stopped reading your post after that as I believe you had the cheek to ask me a question following the statement dressed up as an answer you made. My question still stands. Of course you don''t have to answer it but its a simple question and I feel, and as you''ve said, I''ve been honest with my opinions (which to me is just stating my opinion), I at least hope you''ll state yours. Saying that you "don''t believe that this league is the walk in the park that you do" makes it seem as if you''re content with calling everyone else out on what you think their opinion is, branding them arrogant and lacking in any pride, but you seem to be hiding behind a wall of other people opinions you disagree with, not behind able to justify your own.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Well now Miggo. What Redknap(supposedly the best manager in the Champs) did with QPR (supposedly the best squad in the Champs) is a lot more relevant than you warbling on about Mackay getting a Champs team promoted. Especially as that same Mackay seems to have got a Champs team relegated. Parachute payments ''n''all.

I would guess, if you look back through the years, that the best squad has rarely walked out of the Champs. And relegated clubs usually take time to adjust.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

[quote user="93vintage"]There''s a lot of ''little old Norwich'' syndrome on display. Nothing''s that bad or terrible or not good enough, we''ve done our best etc. Any constructive critisism however valid is likely to be argued against or picked apart by certain posters to make things appear less bad.It''s not just the results or league position under Adams that was at fault. For whatever reason the standard of play just wasn''t up to scratch. We had a good enough squad to improve the quality of our play while not falling from 1st to 11th and leaving ourselves with a mountain to climb.The club was always going to face criticism if we weren''t consistently up near the top, even more so if the manager was someone with no real experience. But then of course no one else but Adams was available or wanted to come here.[/quote]Your idea of "constructive criticism" seems to be that blatantly misleading post that attempted to show Watford''s early season managerial merry-go-round in a good light in contrast to what you were trying to portray as our indecision. You are right in one thing - that kind of fraudulent and one-eyed negativism will be picked apart, but only because it can be and deserves to be.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Oh and Miggo, bless your cotton socks, I''ve branded nobody as arrogant. I said some of the opinions are arrogant. Particularly yours that any manager, who''d been in the job a year, would have got us promoted.

[Herman 9,756]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="93vintage"]There''s a lot of ''little old Norwich'' syndrome on display. Nothing''s that bad or terrible or not good enough, we''ve done our best etc. Any constructive critisism however valid is likely to be argued against or picked apart by certain posters to make things appear less bad.It''s not just the results or league position under Adams that was at fault. For whatever reason the standard of play just wasn''t up to scratch. We had a good enough squad to improve the quality of our play while not falling from 1st to 11th and leaving ourselves with a mountain to climb.The club was always going to face criticism if we weren''t consistently up near the top, even more so if the manager was someone with no real experience. But then of course no one else but Adams was available or wanted to come here.[/quote]Your idea of "constructive criticism" seems to be that blatantly misleading post that attempted to show Watford''s early season managerial merry-go-round in a good light in contrast to what you were trying to portray as our indecision. You are right in one thing - that kind of fraudulent and one-eyed negativism will be picked apart, but only because it can be and deserves to be.[/quote]Amen to that Purple.

[mrs miggins 0]

You suggested Malky, which is why I talked about him.

Btw, in what way is it arrogant? Is it arrogant to want someone who has been a manager and has at least a bit of experience as one instead of being happy with a youth team coach and just expect him to be good. That ones a rhetorical question, I don''t expect you to answer that one, just like you didn''t answer the question I posed to you.

I''m glad you''re now not using the word ''anybody'' at least, which is good as I previously stated, the championship is a hard league and we wouldn''t do very well if we just had anybody.

Shall I bother asking the question about Adams'' result again, that is the topic after all.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Miggo old darling, the thing about Mackay is that he was the choice of half this message board, fitted your example of anybody who had at least a years experience, but did nothing at Wigan to even hint he would have bettered Adams record here.

The question you continually say I haven''t answered is answered in full on page one of this thread. Go have read and you will see exactly what my opinion is on Neil Adams performance as Norwich manager this season.

The example of Alex Neil suggests he may have got better results over that period. The example of Malkey Mackay suggest he may not have done better over that period. Malkey fitted you''re criteria without a doubt and was championed by many. Alex hardly fitted your criteria and was championed by nobody. Thank goodness that our Board know best...

[mrs miggins 0]

What do you mean he hardly fitted my criteria? I said as long as we had a manager who''d been in the job at least a year he''d get us up. Alex Neil had been in the job with Hamilton for over a year so how is this ''hardly fitted your criteria''? He did fit the criteria. If you''ve written it wrong and actually your trying to point out that he''d be low down the list of the criteria, well this only demonstrates my point more perfectly than I could''ve put it.

Why you compare wigan with us is mental, absolutely mental. If we are going to go into Wigan though, if I was a Wigan fan looking for a manager to save our club from relegation, I would''ve been happy enough with an Adams character, but as I say, nothing to do with Norwich and certainly doesn''t mean that because Malky didn''t save Wigan he would''ve done worse than Adams, an inaccurate and ill thought out statement.

I''ll give up on the question as you aren''t gonna answer it.

Although generally I like our board and think Mcnally overall has been the best thing for our club, it doesn''t mean they haven''t made mistakes, Adams being a prime example. Everyone makes mistakes and i''m glad we''ve got the board we have as they know best most of the time and are better than you or I would be. But surely you can agree that appointing Adams was a mistake?

[chicken 0]

I have done this before so perhaps worth doing again? A bit of scaling.1 being brilliant, 5 being woeful, 3 being middle of the road - good, solid, but maybe unspectacular.5 - Roeder4 - Grant, Hamilton3 - Adams, Rioch2 - Worthington, Alex Neil2.5  - Lambert. 1 - Walker (first time), Brown, Stringer.

[mrs miggins 0]

Did Nutty write that list?