GJP

[quote user="silver fox"] Can I assume that you don''t watch many games if you think Colin and Shackell are the weak links?  You must surely be in the minority if you think Doherty is a better defender.  Could you remind me the last time that Doherty played with any confidence.[/quote] Unfortunately many Norwich fans, yourself included it would seem, think Jason Shackell is something he''s not. The Doc was playing with confidence at the start of the season, when Norwich actually made quite a bright start. Following on from him being our player of the season. Obviously you have quite a short memory. Now if you watch Jason Shackell play closely you''ll (hopefully...if you know your football) notice the number of times he''ll lose out in the air to a player a few inches short than him, how often he lets an opposing striker bring the ball down in his own time and how often he''ll lose a forward who makes clever runs. I mean sure he''ll happily hoof the ball clear when it''s sitting there and everyone will think he''s defended like Fabio Cannavaro. With a bit of confidence the Doc is comfortably a better defender than Shackell. He''s been at Luton, he''s been at Spurs (and that is what you''d call a big club) and he''s played for his country. Now will Jason Shackell ever be wanted by a club bigger than Norwich? absolutely no chance. As for Colin...nice and tidy on the ball, he''s an intelligent player. But he is definitely not the strongest defender the world has ever seen.

[quote user="Snakepit boys"]He was the driving force of the Reading midfield last season! So yeah, definately crap Jas? Would certainly rather have Robbo and Etuhu than Oster! [/quote] Really? I think you''ll find the Reading key midfielders are/were James Harper and Steve Sidwell.  

Have to blame Worthy for the lack of depth really, he''s the one who wanted a small squad. I still think he was a good manager for Norwich but I always thought his small squad was foolish. You need to have a strong squad at this level because you can''t afford to be carrying anyone.

[quote user="koimatsuba"] IMO - No we don''t need any midfielders, We have Safri, Etuhu, Robinson, Hughes all of these players may not be brilliant but IMO there isn''t much out there IN THIS LEAGUE that are better. Safri and Robinson are both internationals, Etuhu was once rated at 5 million by Everton. Also not forgeting the wingers of HUCKS, CHADWICK, CROFT. Yet our defense is a joke. -10 Goal difference is CRAP.  The Doc is at time too shaky and indesive, Dury has been at the club too long and shouldn''t be the captain, Coiln and Shacks are just about at the corect level. Both need help around them. As for fleming hes one season too many. I never rated him anyway, too small for a defender. We Need A NEW DEFENSE AND AN EXTRA STRIKER TO HELP OUT BROWN NOW EARNIE IS INJURED. [/quote] See I actually agree that it''s the defence that needs the work more than the midfield but I see Shackell and Colin as being the weaker links. Fair enough the Doc isn''t playing with any confidence at the moment but when he does he''s a better defender than Shackell.

[quote user="wood 4 the trees"] The other point I would like to make is how many times recently have I seen and then read comments like yours on ETUHU.  How is it he still gets in the team??? [/quote] I suspect it''s probably because he is quite a good footballer who is just struggling for a bit of confidence and form at the moment. And there''s not enough strength in the squad to leave him out.

[quote user="Snakepit boys"]I am going to have to agree to disagree on this one! He was negative, Our away form was terrible, the youth provided nothing and he signed many average players. I am not saying that we did not have some good times with him, what I am saying, is that his 5 year plan totally failed and we won roughly 1 cup game during his reign!!! We are now in possibly the worst position we have been for a long long while! Good managers are people like Martin O''Neill, Alan Curbishley, Mark Hughes (remember the awful team that Souness brought to Carrow Rd) etc... I fail to see how from his takeover to his end you can say he was a good succesful manager! A nice, dignified and pleasant chap Yes!! [/quote] Because I''m just a bit more realistic than yourself. Interesting that you include Curbs and Hughes as good managers yet what exactly have they won that Nigel hasn''t?      And that''s not me saying I don''t rate them Anyone with a bit of common sense will look at Norwich before Nigel was there, during his reign and then after his reign and say ok he got it wrong towards the end and he made some mistakes but all things considered he did pretty well. Because, whether you know this or not, Norwich aren''t exactly Barcelona, Real Madrid or Man Utd. We''re not going to have the best of the best and so we need to do as well as we can with what we''ve got and Nigel Worthington definitely did quite well with what he had. Many many years from now when Norwich have been promoted and relegated a few more times, had some more successes and lots more struggles, people will look back and realise that actually Nigel did alright.

[quote user="Snakepit boys"]How was he a good manager? Just look at the ridiculous wage bill, side and position he has left us in! He was poor! Fact! [/quote] Well let''s just think about this seeing as you clearly need the help. After Norwich being a fairly mediocre side ambling around in the depths of the First Division: He took Norwich to the play-off final, we lost but it should still be seen as a great memory for City fans. He then won the league with a side playing stylish football and thusly took us into the Premiership. We got relegated but had the board put up the dosh for Ashton at the start of the season then we''d probably have been ok. Norwich were also frequently praised during their stint in the Premiership for trying to play good football. Even the great José Mourinho had kind words to say. And along the way he signed some absolutely quality players for this club. Yes, I know there is a list of duffers too but everyone makes mistakes - eg Fergie lashing £28mil on Veron. Yet Fergie is still one of the best managers ever. The signings of Earnshaw and Huckerby (although there are several other good signings) are a tribute to Nigel Worthington. Because thanks to Nigel we have the best goalscorer in this league and a player who could quite easily play for any number of Premiership sides. Those 2 quality players aren''t going to come and play for just anyone - if they didn''t like what Nigel Worthington was about then they wouldn''t be at this club. As for the wage bill and what not I fail to see how that''s his fault - he''s not the man who controls the finances. Frankly if you don''t think Nigel Worthington was a good manager for Norwich then you really have absolutely no idea about football.

Nigel Worhtington was a good manager for this club, absolutely no doubt it. If Peter Grant does as well as Nigel did for Norwich then I''ll be quite impressed.  

[quote user="jjblyss"] ryan jarvis, rossi jarvis, halliday and ian henderson....don''t write these 4 off they are all talented players who just lack exposure to playing week in week out, i believe PG rates all four but also he realises that especially in the case of ryan jarvis and ian henderson they were mis-used by his predecessor, henderson often played out of position and jarvis jsut put under either to much pressure or lost confidence either way lets support these guys they are young and whether you realise or not they are inexperienced and a stadium can be a daunting place when fans go against you. [/quote] While I agree with some of the comments you made later on in the post about the senior players I really think you''re giving some of them youngsters a bit too much credit. Giving people games or playing them in their favoured position doesn''t suddenly mean they''ll become quality professionals. Those 4 particular players would never make the grade at a club which has a stronger acadaemy system.Nigel Worthington realised they weren''t up to it and PG will be exactly the same. They have to give 1 or 2 a run every so often as a token gesture but aside from Joe Lewis there aren''t any young players at the club who stand out as being good enough to make the grade. We need to be more ruthless with the academy....players that just aren''t cutting it need to be kicked out rather than just letting them sit on the fringes of the first team for 4 years.

[quote user="Matt Hudson"]I thought this might happen when adams left. I know worthy is happy and settled in the area with family and so a move to coventry would mean he wouldnt need to move. Coventry are in a very similar position to norwich were when worthy took over, and remember he did take us to the play offs and the premiership, and just think a more ambition board signing ashton 6 months earlier and we probably would have stayed in the premiership, and worthy would have been worshipped, the rest is history but i reckon he could do a good job at coventry.[/quote] Yeah, I agree. It was time for him to go but overall Nigel Worthington did more good than bad for this club. He made mistakes but all managers do, he got us to a play-off final and then later into the Prem and signed come quality players in his time here. I know there is a lit of duffers he signed but if you can get the likes of Hucks and Earnie to Norwich and actually wanting to play for the club then you''re definitely doing something right.

[quote user="Saint Canary"] [quote user="GJP"] I don''t think the Lucas Neill example is anywhere near as bad as you seem to think. It''ll be the last big move of his career and he won''t want to run the risk of not playing regularly, Steve Finnan is obviously very much part of the setup at Liverpool. Also Neill hass played for a London club before and has commented in the past (way before it was ever mentioned that he''d leave Blackburn) that he didn''t like the area he was living in - so maybe he fancied a move back to London. West Ham are also a fairly big club and in the grand scheme of things they''d still be considered a bigger club than Blackburn who he has left. So add a massive wage packet to that and I don''t think he''s done too much wrong. [/quote] Sorry but I disagree with just about every word of that.  West Ham are a fairly big club I agree but Liverpool are massive.  One is fighting relegation, the other qaulifies for the Champions League every season.  In the last decade Liverpool have won the FA Cup and two Eurpopean tophies.  West Ham have won jack and spent two years in the Fizzy league.  Add in the fact that Liverpool are the club you have always supported and the move to West Ham seems more and more motivated by money and nothing else. You mention Finnan is a fixture at Anfield but he is hardly a world class player and Neill should be able to win a place there, he just doesn''t want to.  He is not up for a challenge, he wants the easy life of a promised starting place and more money.  He could have gone to Liverpool and won something, instead he has gone elsewhere for a quick buck. I also cannot agree with the last big move theory either, if West Ham go down you watch him activate his "release clause", or do you think he will stay because he wants to live in London?  What I will agree with is that he has done nothing wrong.  What he has done though is added to list of reasons why fans are being turned off Premiership football because it''s all about money and football is secondary. [/quote] Steve Finnan is not a world class player but he is a very consistent player in what is a pretty tight back 4. He never lets Liverpool down and I''m sure he''s a very valued part of the team. Therefore I don''t think Rafa would be particularly keen to mix things up just because Lucas Neill is available. I''m sure if Liverpool really wanted Neill then they would have got him. West Ham clearly really really wanted him and they''ve got him. The Premiership is pretty much the best league in the world so I can''t see why money issues would stop a real football fan watching it. Just because Lucas Neill is pocketing £70k a week isn''t going to stop me watching Ronaldo, Henry, Rooney, Essien and the rest.

[quote user="jas the barclay king"][quote user="GJP"][quote user="Hump"] At present if you were a young lad why would you sign a Pro contract for Norwich? [/quote] Because you realise that you''re not very good and Norwich is the biggest club you''ll have to play/sign for. No matter how much some fans of the club believe you to be better than you really are. [/quote] Sutton, Eadie, Bellamy, Green .. all "not very good" then GJP? jas :) [/quote] What have they got to do with anything? They''re all in the past.

[quote user="Hump"] At present if you were a young lad why would you sign a Pro contract for Norwich? [/quote] Because you realise that you''re not very good and Norwich is the biggest club you''ll have to play/sign for. No matter how much some fans of the club believe you to be better than you really are.

It''s no real surprise... our academy products are fairly poor. The only one at the moment who looks like having a chance of making it is Joe Lewis. The club make a lot of the players out to be something they''re not. Some people don''t appreciate the massive leap in quality between being a decent youth player and maybe playing for one of the mickey mouse international ranks (eg U19 or U20 as opposed to U21) and being a fully professional senior footballer.

[quote user="Saint Canary"] For those amongst us who wonder just how our highly (and over) paid footballers just don’t perform how they should then we only need to look at Lucas Neill to see why.  He and our sorry lot are clearly in it for the money and have very little personal pride, they are just happy to draw their massive wages at the end of each week.   When you look at Neill’s choice to go to West Ham over Liverpool it is absolutely ludicrous and the reasons he gives are pathetic.  Despite Liverpool being the club he has supported since he was a boy he chose not to go there because….  West Ham made him feel wanted, offered him £70k a week and guaranteed him a starting place.  Liverpool reportedly only offered £30k (how could you live on that eh?) and would not guarantee first team football.  I just can’t understand why anyone would not want to play for one of the best clubs in the world and FIGHT for a place in the side, especially one you claim to support!!!  Why does he not want to test himself by playing with and against the best?  Where is his ambition?   I think Neill sums up the modern footballer well.  Football, winning, achieving something whether it be avoiding relegation from League 2 or winning the Premiership are all secondary to “How much am I getting paid?”. [/quote] I don''t think the Lucas Neill example is anywhere near as bad as you seem to think. It''ll be the last big move of his career and he won''t want to run the risk of not playing regularly, Steve Finnan is obviously very much part of the setup at Liverpool. Also Neill hass played for a London club before and has commented in the past (way before it was ever mentioned that he''d leave Blackburn) that he didn''t like the area he was living in - so maybe he fancied a move back to London. West Ham are also a fairly big club and in the grand scheme of things they''d still be considered a bigger club than Blackburn who he has left. So add a massive wage packet to that and I don''t think he''s done too much wrong.

Me thinks we need to keep (assuming Drury does have 18 months left) Dion, Doherty and Joe Lewis. Not too fussed about the rest. Although it would be good if PG could get McVeigh fit and motivated as there''s no doubt that he''s a quality footballer...when he''s up for it.

[quote user="Evil Monkey"]Someone certainly saw you coming, Wiz, that''s for sure... [:P] I''m getting a little nervous, I must admit, as its starting to have echoes of the Worthy regime, but if you consider that Grant has already made two permanant signings this transfer window then he''s already matched what Worthy mananged in his part of the season! A quality midfielder could solve many of our problems as our defence is getting battered due to the massive hole in the middle of the park where Robinson/Hughes/Etuhu regularly sit picking their noses.  A decent partner for Safri and suddenly we could be in business. Maybe not play-offs, but at least to climb the table and salvage some pride from the season... [/quote] I don''t think we''re doing too badly for midfielders. I just think we''re weak in defence. The Doc isn''t playing with any confidence (personally I think he''s lost a lot of confidence since PG has been here) and Shackell and Colin are both weak defenders. I think having a couple of rock hard defenders in the team would make everything else look a lot better.

[quote user="Evil Monkey"] Jarvis was never given a sustained run in the team, and he looked like he could have been quality if he''d have been given a proper chance, rather than the odd cup game and sub appearances here and there.  Worthy ruined him, as he did with Hendo and most other youngsters.  Shackell was lucky to get a run, and even then Worthy was too late in bringing him into the defence in the Prem. [/quote] Worthy didn''t ruin them, they''ve never been good enough. Worthy knew that and that''s why he used them very sparingly. I imagine Grant will do the same. You say Jarvis could have been quality but he hasn''t got any pace, he''s not very strong and he''s generally quite lazy. He doesn''t have what it takes and no matter how many games in the first team you give him it''ll never change.  

That''s a really good point in my opinion. The academy is praised up a lot but it really doesn''t produce much, most of the youth players on the fringes of the first team squad are miles and miles off being good enough. Having said that...I think there''s various restrictions on how far young players can travel for training etc  Making it difficult to have a wide catchment area as Norwich is so far out of the way.

I fail to see why anyone would swap Drury for Ziegler or Boyle... Bobby Hassell at Barnsley would make a good right-back for us.

I''ve always thought we should go after Tiny Taylor at Birmingham...although I can''t see him signing for Norwich these days.  

For me it was aiming to be a Charlton. Nice cosy little idea and everything...but lets face it...Charlton aren''t going to win anything. I''d rather we were a Bolton or a Reading or even a Sheff Utd - in other words not scared to have a bloody good go at it.  

[quote user="Fat Barman"]I''m not an expert on City youth players, but I think GJP is being a bit harsh here. Jarvis does appear to lack application (not ability), Henderson''s had a really rough time. We have highly motivated, quality young players who are being selected to represent their national squads - Cave-Brown, Spillane, Renton and Lewis - and a manager who actually watches them play (unlike his predecessor). Don''t write off the Academy. [/quote] I don''t think I am really, I think I''m just a bit more realistic. Jarvis clearly lacks ability, he lacks pace and strength. If he had what it takes he''d have done something by now, I think most City fans would accept that. Hendo...I like him because he''s not afraid to work hard but he does lack that cutting edge. Where you''d see Hucks or Crofty drop a shoulder to beat a man and show a bit of guile Hendo doesn''t really have that in his locker. Do any of them boys play for their U21s? When they start playing international U21 football then you know you''ve got a bit of quality on your hands. When it''s just U19 and U20 etc it''s not the same standard. To describe our current academy products as being ''highly motivated, quality young players'' is completely over the top. It''s building them up to be something they''re not. I will say though...I rather like the look of Joe Lewis and I actually think Grant should have given him a go by now.  

[quote user="Rupethebear"]Instead of signing new players what about giving the kids a chance.[/quote] Most of the kids are no-way near ready/good enough. We need proven quality.

Norwich probably could have had Davenport but at the time the coaching staff thought Jason Shackell was a better player... ha!