We have the players but NOT the management

[Tumbleweed 106]

Right, so I ''m prepared for the flack about to come my way but I have felt this way for a while.

I sincerely feel that for several seasons now our management team have not beeen getting the best out of our available players. The key purposes of a good management team is to choose the right squad, instill and hone natural talents and work on tactics for match day situations.

A good management team gets MORE out of the team than the sum of their collective parts. Evidence: Dave Stringer in the late 80s, Walker in the early 90s, Bond in the late 70s.

I am concerned that we are increasingly getting LESS than the current collective ability of our team.

Yesterday was a good case in point. A 100% full strength side. Another big crowd. A key game against a promotion rival. An early goal. Look at the team sheet- 11 players who should be able to dominate a match and tear an opponent to shreds. Were we weak in any one area on paper? I would say no.

But yet again the same old things went wrong which allowed Palace to dominate more and more and we just slowly fizzled out of ideas, energy and inspiration. We wasted what should be the most potent attack in this league, and a hit post in the second half cannot deny the basic truth of this.

The passing was at times woeful, poor decison making at key times (particularly in attack), a defence sitting further and further back, a central midfield failing to support the front two, poor marking and closing down. And so on.

Why does this happen?  I can only conclude that its the backroom staff. Something, somewhere is not as it should be.

Moreover, this has been the case for a while now. The fact we won the Championship cannot hide the fact that we were second best in many of the games we won, Greeno often kept us in matches and we had two talismans hauling us through, plus we had fortune with injuries. It was why commentators felt it would be tough for us to stay up- they were able to see something without the right foundations.

I still believe we had players (including proven internationals) who could and perhaps should have kept us promoted. Those basic mistakes ran riot, we played people out of position or not at all and we failed.

This season has not started well. Granted it is only three games in. But the evidnce distressingly is already there that this is how it is going to be. Until something happens at management level we will simply NOT be the team we should be. We might get promoted, but with this squad we SHOULD be promoted.

I do not single out any individuals. The contenders are obvious. This needs to be addressed just as much as failings on the pitch are sorted ruthlessly. You cannot have a first rate team with second rate trainers.

We can do better. We SHOULD be doing better.

Now for my tin hat.................

[Mark .Y. 352]

Virtually identical (but longer) to a post I made not long ago Tumbleweed, a good manager/coaching team do get more out of their players than you would think - we seem to get less. My gripe is much the same as yours, this has been in evidence for quite some time it is not a new thing and it is not improving. Yes it is the beginning of the season but the old mistakes are still there.

And another thing (whilst I''m moaning), why the hell did we agree to play Coventry at home. We should have insisted on a neutral venue, I am sure it would still have been a draw and we would have the home game to come - WE ARE TOO NICE, it is the nice little Norwich syndrome.

Mark .Y.

  

[Trent Canary 0]

"And another thing (whilst I''m moaning), why the hell did we agree to play Coventry at home. We should have insisted on a neutral venue, I am sure it would still have been a draw and we would have the home game to come - WE ARE TOO NICE, it is the nice little Norwich syndrome."

I mentioned that last week. Id rather have one neutral and one home than one home and one away!

[gazzathegreat 0]

Tumbleweed, i agree with you on everything you say, yesterday (palace) was frustrating - looking around at all our players there wasn''t one who was genuinley playing poorly, but as a unit wer aren''t clicking or making progress. Yes, we have several new faces and they should be given time to blend in (as should have several of last years batch, ie helveg, johnson), but we have the best striker in the league, the best overall player and one of the best goalkeepers, plus a great prospect at centre half.  We also have a fantastic midfield player who can pass the ball (shock) and tackle.  So what is going on?  Three points from 3 consectutive home games is not promotion form.  It maybe on par with palace and other pre season favourites, but come on, who amongst you honestly thought we wouldn''t win at least two of the past three games?

Worthy and the back room staff need to radically look and overhaul their coaching strategies.  This doesn''t mean money, it means time and thought.  Where is the passing football Worthy keeps going on about?  Yes it was evident at times against Crewe, but they didn''t try to stop us playing.  The majority of the teams in this league are of the Coventry mould, and worse.  At this level I expect our team to be able to pass to each other, move into space for team mates and play until the final whistle.  No, I don''t expect much do I? 

 

 

 

[YankeeCanary 0]

Gazza, you know that you and I are on the same page with respect to coaching deficiencies but I''m afraid time and thought are not going to get the job jone. We have been rattling away on this subject for the past two seasons. We need fresh faces and input. TIME has already passed us by and THOUGHT has failed to demonstrate a willingness to learn during that TIME.  

[Pyro Pete 1,897]

There are some good points being made here. But with there being 46 games to play this season, our poor form can be turned around if the management get back to basics. But like you, I am worried at what I''ve seen so far.

My main concern is that the team hasn''t looked prepared for the arrival of the new season, and that is the management''s failure. The pre-season warm up games went badly. And that lack of form has carried on into the new season.

Worthy has been indecisive on what is his best team is, with Doherty and Louis-Jean (rightfully) being discarded after just one or two matches. Injuries aside, the team selection issues should have been resolved in the pre-season friendlies.

Most worrying of all is the lack of teamwork that has been displayed so far in all departments. Our attacking players epitomised this yesterday. Ashton and Mckenzie looked like strangers, unable to link up at all. Despite Hucks yesterday having numerous runs down the left flank, he kept failing to service the strikers with quality passes or crosses. While his defensive contribution must have made Worthy fume, as Charlton was left marking two players again and again. Meanwhile Marney''s crossing, which looked quite good in the first match, became an aimless hit & hope affair.

All this stinks of players working as individuals, not as a team. It''s down to the manager and his coaching staff to resolve these issues, and fast. I believe they can do it, but first they need to recognise that there is a problem. Something that doesn''t seem evident from Worthy''s "pleasing workrate, good team effort, know what I mean? Game on!" interview comments.

[silver fox 0]

I have commented several times before that our manager and coaching staff stifle the natural talent we have in the squad. They also only appear to have one set of tactics, and if they don''t work they seem incapable of changing things. 

 I cringe when Worthy states that it is important to keep a good shape and that the energy levels were high.  To me this means that certain players are restricted to what they can do, they must not stray out of their position,  but as long as you run around a lot the manager will be impressed.

We all know that Worthy is a strict disciplinarian and therefore it is not in a players interest to do something different to what he has been told, or else he is likely to face being dropped.  I would love to listen in on the team tactics before the match just to hear what words of wisdom are passed onto the players. 

Palace and Crewe both looked very fluid in their play and seemed to be able to pass the ball quickly to their team mates who regularly made themselves available ( that means they don''t stand next to the person marking them).  We on the other hand seemed to have to stop and look for an option as our players are probably too busy keeping their shape for the manager and coaching staff.

The manager and coaching staff need to take a long hard look at themselves because I think the players we have in the squad are good enough to get us promoted. 

[carpio 0]

Please try to understand that just because Worthy does not have a go at the players in public He is happy with the perfomance. If you read Iwan''s book worthy is quite capable of "blistering the paint off the walls"! It is not good management to have a go at the team in the public domain and i for one would be disapointed if he did.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Ironically I feel that Worthy has and is doing a pretty good job so I am not (yet) in 1st Wizard''s camp. Doc has a shocker- in comes Jason. MLJ struggles so in comes Colin. Marney is an excellent capture, Safri a great buy last year and before that Hucks, Leon, Sven all turned us into Championship winners. Most of the substitutions make sense and Flem has been OK so far so probably has been the right choice to partner Shackell.

Pyro- you are so right. We are a team of individuals and have been for two or three seasons now. Good individuals, but still individuals.

My conclusion is that it can only be the Foley/Livermore work at Colney which is at fault. Trouble is that very few of us get to see this in evidence, we tend to all blame the manager rather than his "peers". Do Delia and Co know what goes on at training? We could blame the manager, bring someone else in and fail to change the others but be no further forward.

On Radio Norfolk someone said we would be better on the break. However all of the three sides so far have come to win. They exploited our weaknesses and grew in confidence.

I fear we are in for a long rough ride because the problems we all know exist and see every week have been there for so long.

The time for action is now Delia- make some key signings in the training staff and get us exploiting the fantastic potential that we have.

[Saint Canary 0]

[quote]Ironically I feel that Worthy has and is doing a pretty good job so I am not (yet) in 1st Wizard''s camp. Doc has a shocker- in comes Jason. MLJ struggles so in comes Colin. Marney is an excellent capt...[/quote]

I am like you Tumbleweed, I am very much Pro Worthy (for now) but that does not mean I am blind to his failings.  I agree with most of what is on here but I want to add something which I felt was a problem last year and looks to be continuing.

I am all in favour of changing players in the team when things are not going well but Worthy is far too fickle sometimes.  Last year Helveg & Jonson were dropped pretty sharpish and I believe this cost us as the season went on.  It''s debatable as to whether they ever actually settled in at all.  Worthy seems to already have dropped Lious Jean in favour of Colin after just 2 games, so why start with LJ if you are not going to give him at least 5 games to settle in?

It''s the thing that worries me most about Worthy, he seems to have no idea sometimes as to what is his best eleven.  Even with Chelsea''s massive squad I have no doubt that Mourinho knows exactly what his best side is.  I really think this cost us dearly last year, with the exception if injuries the team changed too much!  I hope he picks a team soon and sticks with it.

[First Wizard 0]

[quote]Ironically I feel that Worthy has and is doing a pretty good job so I am not (yet) in 1st Wizard''s camp. Doc has a shocker- in comes Jason. MLJ struggles so in comes Colin. Marney is an excellent capt...[/quote]

Not quite in my camp eh Tumbleweed?, well, you and the others are certainly bloody close to it in my opinion!.

Only now are you and the other posters finally grasping what I''ve said about Worthy since his appointment, he''s inept, slow to learn (if he ever does) and prone to panic buying.

Well now the chickens, sorry, canaries, are really coming home to rest.

I well remember a heated debate with Campbell, over the new signings, I said they were awful, and by and large I''ve been proved right so far!.

3 out of 9 points, all at home is shocking, especially with our strike force, add last season and our inability to defend a lead.....again, tells me its time for a change.

Yes, I know I said I''d give him 10 games, well stuff that, I''m now including last season and the warm up games too in that equation.

He has to go.........soon!.

[nolegs 0]

Forsooth thou dost changeth thy rules to suit thyself 1st Wiz,dost thy lieth like a cheap carpet!!

[FatMan Fat 0]

Good for you, Tumbleweed - a thoughtful post highlighting what is wrong at Carrow Road.

The fact is that as far as the playing staff are concerned we DO have the resources that should mean that we take this league by storm.

The fact that we are not doing this reflects upon the decisions taken by the management team at some level or other, be it training, coaching, selection etc etc.

The fact is that this problem has been ongoing for a long, long,time now and is not limited to this season. This was the reason why we were relegated last year when in truth we had a golden opportunity to stay up.

Changes DO need to be made.  Whether the Board will have the courage to insist on those changes remains to be seen.

[Salopian 1]

I have thought for some time that Worthy has generally done well in the transfer market, - his "cheap" and sometimes poor purchases are probably due to budget contraints. He has also been brave in getting rid of deadwood.

Against this I am concerned on a number of issues

- basic skills - mainly an inability to make even short passes to our own players, to bring the ball under control quickly, to run into spaces to receive the ball, maintaining shape and position. Energy levels are not enough on their own.

- motivation and effort - granted that some players are still short of fitness because of pre-season factors, but we still take our foot off the gas. We do not seem to be able to play consistently throughout a match or between matches. The most difficult to motivate has gone to Wigan, so things ought to improve, but on the basis of the past....

- team selection, which defies understanding at times, and tactics - we regularly see other teams who have countered what they see as our strengths by evident thought and preparation. When do we show the same imagination?

The best managers, because of their reputation, often have the better players, but their reputation was gained through producing skillful players, motivating them to play for 90 minutes and showing an intelligent and imaginative approach to team selection and tactics which can often overcome indiviudal deficiencies in their players.

[First Wizard 0]

[quote]Forsooth thou dost changeth thy rules to suit thyself 1st Wiz,dost thy lieth like a cheap carpet!![/quote]

Verily I mighteth nolegs!.

[ZLF 274]

I have to agree that the management side of things is not helping the players on the pitch.   Although we are three games into this season the fallibilities of last season are still there to be seen despite having had ample time to address them, no organisation in defence and limited passing, tackling or creating ability in central midfield. 

To compound this Worthy has selected three different defence combinations and 3 different midfield combinations in those three games.  This cannot help create any understanding between the players especially when the defensive changes have not been due to injuries. 

To compound his errors Worthy continues to focus his energies on players who run like paula radcliffe and have the tenacity of a pit bull terrier - all very admirable but if they cant do didley squat with a football its no good to a team with prmotion aspirations.

Like last season Worthy does not appear to have assessed what the sides best team or has judged incorrectly that the current squad is good enough. 

Hughes is a poor mans holt and already seem to hold the same affection in Worthys heart for the effort he puts in; but he is not good enough support for Safri, just as Holt was not last year.  He is a sound squad player but no more  Jarrett sadly does not look up to it either; he had 15 mins on sat and was as ineffective as he was against crewe; however he should be started with safri as its a combination we have not seen - and there is no other alternative; which is a ludicrous situation to be in - which other club only has three cntral midfielders two of which want collecta  yellow card a game, 2 of which are injury prone and 1 who will miss 4-6 wks playing for morrocco.  Who will play there in Jan/Feb - starting with Hughes and Jarrett is bad enough but to have no cover - thats just poor planning.

At the back doc became the paul mcveigh scapegoat for a poor performance; against coventry doc played far far better than captain fantastic or MLJ and his only error were clumsy tackles outside the box.  Frustrating but they did not contribute to a goal conceeded and for that he gets dropped.  The poor bloke deserves a chance even if I dont really beleive he is good enough.   Its amazing some players only get picked on training ground effort yet perform poorly on the pitch and never get dropped but players who have done a reasonable job get dropped after a game or two because their face does not quite fit... 

Again shacklell needs to be tried with other defenders, Flem is past his best despite his best game in months on Sat; where again he was slow leaving the box for their goal and played people on side (the goal was not his fault tho) and he failure to close players down well enough was shown by AJs last effort that green tipped over; shacks or a defender on top of his game would have been far closer to prevent even any thought of a shot on goal.      

Marney looks like a boy learning a mans game and we do not have any over for him that worthy trusts, and we have a midfield that used to contribute 15-25 goals a season that will be lucky to add 10 this.

Until worthy learns the value of footballing ability this club will continue to under perform with the squad of players available to them.

All of the above is easily solved by some resolve from the manager - but he has to see it before he cant act on it and strangely he seems blinkered to what the fans have seen for months.

There is no alternative to worthy as far as our manager is concerned; but he has a thousan options to change his own cracked record - please try one; its like Vimto; whats the worst that can happen?   Performances cant get mich worse can they??

 

OTBC

[beelsie 0]

Good post Tumbleweed, although Worthy, for me is still a manager that we can work with and IMO has made minor mistakes that he should learn from quickly!!! I believe that there is a poor training staff at this club who are not either working together or have the right agenda to work to. The agenda should be of Worthy''s choosing. I get the feeling that there is something unhealthy going on in the training camp and until something drastic is done, the mistakes of the last two and a half seasons will continue to arise.

Although Worthy is the manager and is I trust the sort of man who is putting his 100% in, I still say that it is his staff who are not pulling their weight.  The results he is getting from them and the team would worry me greatly if I were in his shoes. I am not quite in YC''s camp yet, but I must say I''m getting closer to the point where I feel that he must stir up the mixture to obtain a more cohesive unit. The ingredients are there but the individuals are not playing for one another. It is the motivation and the overall off the ball running that bothers me more than anything, plus the habit of falling back too deep from midfield, and standing off opponents too readily, it has also been said that support from midfield to assist the front men is lacking, is this a result of bad feeling that may be created by individual font men who persistently fail to take on their defensive duties.  I would add that some of the media clips that have appeared show a very lack lustre effort being put in on the training ground and a definite sullen look on the faces of some of training participants, who seem to be reluctant to put on a show for the camera. Fitness is a priority, but it is in the direction of that elusive condition, we must produce the mental awareness on the pitch.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Wizard- regarding your view on Worthy I think I''ve bought a ticket, but I haven''t boarded the train!! I still believe that his support team is more to blame than him for these deficiencies.

Unlike Zipper who I think sees this early chopping and changing as purely disruptive (which to a certain extent it is) I praise Worthy for having the balls to make changes when a player doesn''t perform. Perhaps Doc was unlucky but any player who gives away three or four freekicks dead centre just outside the penalty area is a liability.

Regardless of whether we have Hughes, Jarrett, Safri, Damien Francis, Steve Gerrard or Patrick bloomin'' Viera it won''t make much difference if we aren''t a team, and that''s where the coaches come in and why they are at fault.

However I did say in the off season than I would give Nigel 10 or 15 games before making a  judgement, so they are now running out......................

[Mello Yello 2,295]

Regarding our ''current'' manager and our inability to ''charge'' up the league. I can at this moment in time, see only ''negative'' and no ''positive'' improvement to this squad. Hucks has ''electric'' pace, but our midfield and back 4 remain ''static'' at times. We need to ''recharge'' our ''batteries'' and, as the management and coaching staff have the ''power'' to change things around, it now needs to be done sooner than later, if the Club wishes to drag us from our ''ohms'' and down to Carrow Rd.

Thought; "Says a lot when Worthy''s mentor was Howard Wilkinson!".....;~)

[First Wizard 0]

[quote]Wizard- regarding your view on Worthy I think I''ve bought a ticket, but I haven''t boarded the train!! I still believe that his support team is more to blame than him for these deficiencies. Unlike Z...[/quote]

I assume Tumbleweed, that Worthy had some input into the selection of the coaches did he not?.

If so, its his responsibility to sort it, and as you rightly say, he clearly hasn''t!.

[FatMan Fat 0]

Mello Tello''s comment about Howard Wilkinson is something I have pointed out before.

Anybody who takes his lead from Wilkinson is going to be lacking in any form of creativity - Wilkinson was the arch exponent of "coaching by numbers"

[Plastic Scouser 0]

Some interesting points here...I think that you have to lay the problems at Worthy''s feet.   He is the manager and as such should have the biggest input into the coaching,  if he felt there was an issue with coaching then he should be the man responsible for sorting it.   Incidentally it would be interesting to hear from anyone who''s actually witnessed a full training session at Colney?   What do they actually do?

 

Personally speaking I think that we''d be better off without him - as a previous post points out he did buttons as a player for Wednesday and his major influence is Howard Wilkinson - enough said.   I''m sure he''s a nice enough bloke but he doesn''t have the ability or the passion to manage at the highest levels.

[Yellow Rider 0]

This is one of the best topics yet to be posted on this site with loads of sensible comment (with some rants!).

Totally agree with Plastic Scouser and this is the area we really need some good INSIDE INFORMATION on. I am not that close to the club to know what actually happens at Colney but someone on this board must have a good idea.

To me as I said in an earlier post today (''Lets get constructive'' - sorry that got put on the transfer talk section, should have been the main site - how can I get it moved??), I think there are justifiable reasons for the disjointed showings and that is mainly down to the high turnover rate but many of us have had concerns about the coaching for years now.

So lets'' try and get DETAIL. For example, what do we really know about the skills and attributes of the management staff i.e the following:

Worthington, Livermore, Foley, Webb and Holman (this guy is a goalkeeping coach - alledgedly).

In the European season (and season before) it was well known (or rumoured) that Walker was the man manager and inspiration with Dehhan being the tactician and doing most of the real work with the team on the training ground.

All that I know about Foley (apart from his Colchester background) is that he ''has a laugh with the lads'' - GREAT! I hope we don''t pay him an undoubtedly very fat salary just for that!!   

As well, what is actually done to IMPROVE players techniques where shortcomings are apparent to the fans e.g. Leon''s first touch? Or is the training just, hard running, press ups, sit ups, running around hoops, some ''keep ball'', a bit of work on a free kick and then that''s it for the day?

TO TAKE OUR CONCERNS FURTHER WE MUST KNOW WHAT ALL THE COACHES ACTUALLY DO AND WHAT THEIR PRINCIPLES ARE IN TERMS OF EFFORT, QUALITY etc. And,a final thought, if Worthy had the misfortune of a Foley like illness which sidelined him for a few weeks, what would happen, who would take over and what changes (if any) would we see??? 

   

[Tumbleweed 106]

Absolutely YR- if anyone knows what goes on in detail (maybe ex-players or ex-staff) it would be great to know.

I sometimes wonder why players frequently cease to develop when they arrive. Look at some selected recent evidence:

Mark Rivers

Phil Mulryne

Paul McVeigh

Leon McKenzie

All four are pretty solid players and all showed bags of potential. The first two seemed to go backwards, at different rates but definitely back. The third had a couple of good seasons but the "Spurs effect" rubbed off and he''s now at best a bit part player struggling for fitness and probably confidence. The last is a current squad member but has he actually got better since arriving? He has great commitment and good pace and harries defenders, but I would say that he is at the same level as when he came here- with erratic finishing and a poor first touch.

The conclusion can only be that its not happening at Colney. Whoever is paid to take these players and hone their skills and technique does not seem to be doing their job.

Did Damien Francis see this? Will Dean Ashton end up as a Keith Robson or Kevin Scott?

[Mook 0]

Nail on the head, tumbleweed.

A perfect example is McVeigh. He starts as the best striker we have. He then gets moved on to the wing. He then starts to lose his scoring touch, and his confidence goes. Then he''s dropped. Then his confidence disappears.

And now look at him!! He''s a shadow of the player he was two and a half seasons ago. Surely someone at the club can do an Allardyce and rescue him?

I fear that this will happen to Hucks. Watch this space.

McVeigh, Rivers, Hendo, Heckingbottom, Jonson, Crow, Bentley, Brennan - all players played out of position on the wing, and it didn''t do much for their game/career did it? Beware, Hucks...

[Putney Canary 0]

Have to disagree with some of that Tumbleweed and Mook!

Mark Rivers - not a worker, not a regular starter for Crewe now either

Phil Mulryne - not a worker, put on weight

Paul McVeigh - too often in McDonalds with Mulryne. Hopefully will re-apply himself now Mulryne has gone.

McKenzie - never had a great first touch, went from League 1 to Premiership in 1 year and didn''t look *too* out of place. He isn''t firing right now, but had some good games last year and saying he is

Worthy likes grafters, hence Rivers/Mulryne leaving and McVeigh being transfer listed. This doesn''t mean he likes plodders though, Ashton is both gifted AND a worker, so is Hucks. I think Worthy has the right work ethic. These players have gone backwards because of their attitude and work rate, I think its unfair to blame Worthy!

I agree that a lot of those players are out of position on the wing, but take Rivers, Jonson, Crow and Brennan off the list (Rivers plays there for Crewe and didn''t he do that before he came here? Brennan can play there, Jonson does for Sweden, I might be wrong but Crow has not been played there) and add Hucks to it. Also I think Bentley HAS played on the right for Arsenal, but I agree its not his natural position. It certainly isn''t Hendo''s!

Worthy has his issues tactically, but he is an excellent man manager. He demands high work ethics, but so would I in his position - these players are paid huge amounts, they should be keeping themselves in top class shape. If they don''t, they deserve to see their careers go backwards.

Yellow Rider, I would also like to see the CVs of the coaching staff and hear some detail as to what the day to day training routine is. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[Mello Yello 2,295]

It''s just been reported on Sky Sports, that Greeno is playing at right-back against Denmark......Well it wouldn''t surprise me if Worthy was the England coach......

On a more serious note, I wonder if anyone has been down to Colney and witnessed- a start to finish training session (including tea & Donuts or cream cakes, & squad members comparing flash motors etc&nbsp. Reason I ask, is that everytime Anglia or the Beeb are down there, all the player''s seem to do is run round in circles ''throwing'' balls to each other, shuttle runs, or piggyback racing!

I would love to see a ''Dario Gradi'' type coach take the squad through their paces. It''s definitely an area where we seem to be weak, and maybe Mr Williams the youth team coach, could be elevated to the senior squad?

;~)