Apologies Due

[crabbycanary 2]

unbeaten ''for'' 17 days

[nutty nigel 7,536]

[quote user="Matt Juler"]It''s clear I''m not going to win this argument, but lets just put it this way...

How many supporters were concerned about relegation on the 1st Jan 2013, I''d say very few.

Now how about 1st March, 1st April and 1st May, the evening of the 4th May after we lost at home to Villa?  I''d bet my bottom dollar that the proportion of City fans concerned about relegation increased at all of these dates, it''s only after Swansea beat Wigan on the 8th that the trend would have reversed.

I am incredibly happy with how we played against WBA and Man City, it''s great to see us playing some decent attacking football, but my concern is how we approached games 20-36 of the season.  That''s what I''m trying to discuss, that''s what I''m concerned about. 
[/quote]

 

In October we were 4/6 to be relegated. Huge favourites with the bookies. That was of course in the first half of the season and at no time after did we get anywhere near those short odds. But then we had a good run and became 20/1 outsiders for relegation. Then we had a poor run and probably dropped to 8/1 before having another good run and getting safe. That''s a football season for you Matt. Full of ups and downs. And I would suggest that apart from the top six most clubs seasons are like that. I doubt anyone gathered their points at the exact same rate throughout.

 

 

[Mr Brownstone 0]

My point is simply this gentlemen, after a shaky start Hughton took us on a fantastic run which saw us sitting 7th in December, a fantastic achievement. However what followed that was a dire sequence that saw us win just 2 games in the next 19, culminating in us being favourites to be relegated with the bookies at half time in the Wigan v Swansea game.

Obviously Swansea did us a favour and we then went on to turn in 2 fantastic performances against WBA and Man City, would those 2 games have turned out differently if WBA had been in with a chance of Europe and City had a chance of wining the title? Maybe, maybe not, but it should never have got to the stage that it did. Our players are better than 2 in 19.

As I''ve said, Hughton achieved his goal for the season and deserves to stay, but showing concern that that form might carry through to the start of next season doesn''t make me a pant wetter, a binner, an idiot, a HOBNOB or whatever other insult you care to through in my direction. It makes me a Norwich City fan who wants the best for my club.

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="Matt Juler"]It''s clear I''m not going to win this argument, but lets just put it this way...How many supporters were concerned about relegation on the 1st Jan 2013, I''d say very few.Now how about 1st March, 1st April and 1st May, the evening of the 4th May after we lost at home to Villa?  I''d bet my bottom dollar that the proportion of City fans concerned about relegation increased at all of these dates, it''s only after Swansea beat Wigan on the 8th that the trend would have reversed.I am incredibly happy with how we played against WBA and Man City, it''s great to see us playing some decent attacking football, but my concern is how we approached games 20-36 of the season.  That''s what I''m trying to discuss, that''s what I''m concerned about.  [/quote]I would suggest we approached those games in much the same manner as we always do. There have been very few games where CH departed from his normal 1 up front formation. I just don''t buy this "going for it" nonsense. Each game has to be taken on its merits and sometimes it goes for you and sometimes it doesn''t. We pressured Everton and won, we pressured Villa and lost. I think you are allowing the results to dictate your opinion of what CH''s approach was.I am sure we try to win every game but sometimes that means making sure that you don''t fall behind. If that happens you have to adjust your game plan accordingly. The manager also has to assess who is playing well and who is off the pace at the moment. Players are not chess pieces, their form goes up and down as indeed does that of the opposition. Over a 38 game season all these things even out and your final position reflects your full seasons form. City finished up the 11th best team in the Premier League and that is established fact and won''t be changed by ignoring games that don''t fit your agenda.

[nutty nigel 7,536]

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]My point is simply this gentlemen, after a shaky start Hughton took us on a fantastic run which saw us sitting 7th in December, a fantastic achievement. However what followed that was a dire sequence that saw us win just 2 games in the next 19, culminating in us being favourites to be relegated with the bookies at half time in the Wigan v Swansea game. Obviously Swansea did us a favour and we then went on to turn in 2 fantastic performances against WBA and Man City, would those 2 games have turned out differently if WBA had been in with a chance of Europe and City had a chance of wining the title? Maybe, maybe not, but it should never have got to the stage that it did. Our players are better than 2 in 19. As I''ve said, Hughton achieved his goal for the season and deserves to stay, but showing concern that that form might carry through to the start of next season doesn''t make me a pant wetter, a binner, an idiot, a HOBNOB or whatever other insult you care to through in my direction. It makes me a Norwich City fan who wants the best for my club.[/quote]

 

I don''t get that Brownie. That result was part of Swansea''s season like the last two results were part of ours. Why do you and Matt continually seem to want to devalue our good performances. They happened. Accept it.

 

 

[Matt Juler 151]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

I can think of two for sure, although I am not certain whether one of them counts as a supporter, that being Chris Hughton.

[/quote]I think you''ve hit the nail on the head there, he started to worry about the consequence of relegation and changed the way we approached games.  We had 25 points, only needed a point a game for safety and the whole philosophy of playing for a point away from home (something I''m comfortable with, although I really do believe Reading were there for the taking!) migrated into the tactics for the home fixtures too.  It could have been very costly, fortunately it wasn''t.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Matt Juler"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

I can think of two for sure, although I am not certain whether one of them counts as a supporter, that being Chris Hughton.

[/quote]I think you''ve hit the nail on the head there, he started to worry about the consequence of relegation and changed the way we approached games.  We had 25 points, only needed a point a game for safety and the whole philosophy of playing for a point away from home (something I''m comfortable with, although I really do believe Reading were there for the taking!) migrated into the tactics for the home fixtures too.  It could have been very costly, fortunately it wasn''t.[/quote]I was actually thinking more of the fact that he told the board (which he obviously did) that it would need to provide money for serious strengthening in the transfer window.

[nutty nigel 7,536]

[quote user="Matt Juler"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

I can think of two for sure, although I am not certain whether one of them counts as a supporter, that being Chris Hughton.

[/quote]I think you''ve hit the nail on the head there, he started to worry about the consequence of relegation and changed the way we approached games.  We had 25 points, only needed a point a game for safety and the whole philosophy of playing for a point away from home (something I''m comfortable with, although I really do believe Reading were there for the taking!) migrated into the tactics for the home fixtures too.  It could have been very costly, fortunately it wasn''t.
[/quote]

 

Were we fortunate to get 44 points Matt? Is that what you''re now saying?

 

 

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="Matt Juler"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

I can think of two for sure, although I am not certain whether one of them counts as a supporter, that being Chris Hughton.

[/quote]I think you''ve hit the nail on the head there, he started to worry about the consequence of relegation and changed the way we approached games.  We had 25 points, only needed a point a game for safety and the whole philosophy of playing for a point away from home (something I''m comfortable with, although I really do believe Reading were there for the taking!) migrated into the tactics for the home fixtures too.  It could have been very costly, fortunately it wasn''t.[/quote]As I said, pure supposition based more on the result than in any knowledge of what was CH''s approach to these games. There were some disappointing home draws but that doesn''t mean we didn''t try to win them.

[morty 0]

I can''t believe people here are still trying to somehow statistically prove that the team they support and allegedly love, are $hit.

So when will they be happy? Top ten, Europa league, Champions league?

Some of you seriously need to get real and understand the limitations the whole club works under, compared to a lot of other teams.

Look at the "bigger" teams we finished above, I put it to you that we are still actually punching above our weight.

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="morty"]I can''t believe people here are still trying to somehow statistically prove that the team they support and allegedly love, are $hit.

So when will they be happy? Top ten, Europa league, Champions league?

Some of you seriously need to get real and understand the limitations the whole club works under, compared to a lot of other teams.

Look at the "bigger" teams we finished above, I put it to you that we are still actually punching above our weight.[/quote]^^^^^ THIS[:D]

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="morty"]I can''t believe people here are still trying to somehow statistically prove that the team they support and allegedly love, are $hit. So when will they be happy? Top ten, Europa league, Champions league? Some of you seriously need to get real and understand the limitations the whole club works under, compared to a lot of other teams. Look at the "bigger" teams we finished above, I put it to you that we are still actually punching above our weight.[/quote]

^^^^^ THIS[:D]
[/quote]

 

Ditto [Y]

[crabbycanary 2]

Oh Morty - I don''t want to hear anymore of this ''little old Norwich'' guff

[morty 0]

So Crabby, do you genuinely think that with our current setup, and level of financial investment we could win the Premier league?

No, didn''t think so.

[Warren Hill 0]

[quote user="morty"]So Crabby, do you genuinely think that with our current setup, and level of financial investment we could win the Premier league?

No, didn''t think so.[/quote]

Matt "If you ignore games we won we would have got relegated" Juler won Fan of the Year, presumably anything is possible......

[crabbycanary 2]

Morty relax - I was having a giggle with you, hence the tongue sticking out. I agree with your post wholeheartedly

[Matt Juler 151]

My final post of the subject...Everyone is obsesing too much over statistics and numbers (including me) and not the actual performances.  In those last two games Hughton/Norwich demonstrated that we have the ability and the players to give everyone in this league a decent game.  A lot of you may say that it was the same line-up for the Villa and WBA games, however formation is not the same as tactics and the mentality of the approach taken to that game.  I''m only focusing on these last two games as I believe they illustrated that we had the "materials" but it was the approach that was "wrong" for the previous 17 or so games.  I don''t believe that anyone who was at both the Villa and WBA games can honestly say that the same approach was taken.I agree that Hughton has earnt his chance to go again next season, but I only hope he approaches more games with this positive attitude having seen what the players can do when given the opportunity.Hope you all have a lovely summer.... anyone know a good cricket forum!

[crabbycanary 2]

No Matt - not everyone is obsessing too much with the stats. The majority are recognizing the final finishing position is the best (reference) stat of all. They recognize there are ups and downs in a season, and that their are innumerable variables, that contribute to a football season.

[morty 0]

Ah sorry Crabby, am on $hit slow internet, and the icon didn''t show up!

[crabbycanary 2]

Too bloody late with your grovelling, your Xmas card is already in a 100 pieces all over my floor

[morty 0]

Matt I think you are vastly overestimating Chris Hughtons ability to control what happens between players ears.

They feel pressure in exactly the same way fans do, in fact I would venture to suggest that for our entire first season the players played with less pressure, as everyone had us written off and odds on for relegation before a ball was even kicked.

The difference between a good and a world class sportsman is his ability to block out that pressure.

I find it difficult to believe that people don''t realise this, and would rather point to silly conspiracy theories rather than the obvious.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Matt Juler"]Hope you all have a lovely summer.... anyone know a good cricket forum![/quote]

www.watchpaintdry.com

[morty 0]

[quote user="crabbycanary"]Too bloody late with your grovelling, your Xmas card is already in a 100 pieces all over my floor[/quote]

Hehehehe.

(My icons don''t work lol)

[CambridgeCanary 0]

]I can''t believe people here are still trying to somehow statistically prove that the team they support and allegedly love, are $hit. So when will they be happy? Top ten, Europa league, Champions league? Some of you seriously need to get real and understand the limitations the whole club works under, compared to a lot of other teams. Look at the "bigger" teams we finished above, I put it to you that we are still actually punching above our weight.

Agreed. I wrote a thread about the mean spirits who claim to support City but cannot give any credit for what is achieved. Here we are again.

If being mean spirited and obsessively critical are essentials for Fan of the Year then I want out and Lincoln wants a recount

[can u sit down please 0]

IF we were more varied in our home games and allowed our fullbacks to play higher up the pitch and not played 2 defensive midfielders, who thinks we could have finished higher?We may have lost 1 or so but the games against Fulham, Newcastle, West Ham, Soutampton, Swansea, QPR and Villa easily could have resulted in a win. NOt only would it have been 3 points but it would have been a boost psychologically. I think it was there for all to see, in the last 2 games, what could be achieved if we had a bit more impetus to get bodies forward. The pantwetters are saying "see" and so are the "KTF''s". its an argument that is going round in circles.If people cant see a tactical change (yes the formation was the same) in the last 2 games then they are so short sighted its unreal. The obvious thing for me is the set up for the 36 previous games had been more a less the same. This is evident when you look at the results v Teams in the top half and bottom half.Tactically we were probably spot on against teams in the top half. We have the 7th best record. Only beaten by this years top 6. These are the games where we were probably right to have an air of caution and look to stifle the opposition. So job done Mr H.Our record against the bottom half is the complete opposite. We sit in 18th with only Reading & QPR with a worse record. Games against the bottom half are the ones where you can be a bit more adventurous and go for it. I have no doubt that if we did, we would have finished higher. We seemed to be too afraid ti take risks in the majority of games against so called "similar opposition."Job done and im as happy as anyone. Lets just hope we get the balance right next season and we can finisher even higher. 

[can u sit down please 0]

[quote user="morty"]Matt I think you are vastly overestimating Chris Hughtons ability to control what happens between players ears.

They feel pressure in exactly the same way fans do, in fact I would venture to suggest that for our entire first season the players played with less pressure, as everyone had us written off and odds on for relegation before a ball was even kicked.

The difference between a good and a world class sportsman is his ability to block out that pressure.

I find it difficult to believe that people don''t realise this, and would rather point to silly conspiracy theories rather than the obvious.[/quote]Ah Morty on psychology again. I remember you saying before that our management deliberately built up the opposition prior to games to make us better!Too much time on FM buddy [;)]

[can u sit down please 0]

Did anyone hear The Norfolk Cafu on Talksport? He said the shackles were off at Man City....controversial.

[ABC (A Basingstoke Canary) 26]

[quote user="can u sit down please"]I think it was there for all to see, in the last 2 games, what could be achieved if we had a bit more impetus to get bodies forward. The pantwetters are saying "see" and so are the "KTF''s". its an argument that is going round in circles.

If people cant see a tactical change (yes the formation was the same) in the last 2 games then they are so short sighted its unreal. 
 
[/quote]

 

The tactical change in the last 2 games was the re-introduction of John Ruddy. His command of his area gives the backs the confidence to go further forward and more often. As I have posted elsewhere, if the total of 15 games where JR played were extrapolated across the whole season, we could have finished in 8th on 53 points (we averaged 1.4 points per game with him in the team).

 

Do not forget that we lost our England International goalkeeper just before the Christmas period - and he only returned for the last 2 games!

[Josh 0]

can u sit down please

My thought in regards to your post: If we really did go for it and punish teams like Newcastle and QPR and gained the points which would have seen us safe early, would we have performed to the level that we did in the last 2 games?

Look teams whose seasons finished prematurely. Swansea with 1 win in their last 10. West Brom, 2 wins in their last 10.

We may have replicated what they did and tailed off towards the end, or maybe not.

My feeling is that balance was regained during the last 2 games, the players found a new sense of freedom with the reintroduction of Ruddy, so were motivated to play free flowing football. There may not have been a huge difference with regards to league position if we adopted a more attacking intent against lesser teams during our slump, motivation may have tailed off towards if end if we gained those extra points.

[QHcanary 0]

Lets not forget that we were afforded a lot more possession by West Brom and Man City than we''ve had the luxury of for most of this season. It''s a lot easier to commit men forward and create chances when you arent chasing tghe other team around for 65% of the game.