larger stadium at what cost?

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="kingsway"]but the longer we stay in the top flight then the sense it will make to "grow" the club a massive part of which will be increasing the ground capacity![/quote]The bulk of the club''s income is from TV/Premier League and every £1m spent on expansion will be £1m less spent on the team. Taking money away from the team jeopardises our future in the top league. When we have become established in the Prem AND have the money to pay for expansion, then will be the time to do it.Taking money away from the team to pay for a new stand/stadium will be too much of a risk at this time.

[SwindonCanary 455]

I thought the main priority of this football club was the fans, so why lock them out ?Also something the club could do is to ensure that when tickets are on sale, they are sold in adjoining seats.. you''ve only gotta look at the tickets on sale and there''s one here and another a few blocks along. how can a family or someone taking their kids buy a ticket ?

[ncfcstar 292]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="basil brush"]I remember when we went up in 2004, the midweek home match against West Brom was noted by the ticket office as having such demand that at least 38,000 fans could have attended had we had the capacity. It is not unreasonable to assume we would get 40,000 on the odd occasion against the largest clubs, though to have a stadium that big is asking too much for the time being.[/quote]38,000, midweek against West Brom, really?[/quote]

 

But not at £40/£50 a pop. Over 20,000 for the yoof last night when they were free or a couple of quid. And the game was live on non-premium tv!

 

 

 

 

[/quote]I don''t think we''d get 38,000 for a midweek game against the baggies if they made it two quid a pop lol.I call bullplop.[/quote]I bet we would have done for that game.  Key game in the promotion race that season.

[morty 0]

[quote user="ncfcstar"][quote user="morty"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="basil brush"]I remember when we went up in 2004, the midweek home match against West Brom was noted by the ticket office as having such demand that at least 38,000 fans could have attended had we had the capacity. It is not unreasonable to assume we would get 40,000 on the odd occasion against the largest clubs, though to have a stadium that big is asking too much for the time being.[/quote]38,000, midweek against West Brom, really?[/quote]

 

But not at £40/£50 a pop. Over 20,000 for the yoof last night when they were free or a couple of quid. And the game was live on non-premium tv!

 

 

 

 

[/quote]I don''t think we''d get 38,000 for a midweek game against the baggies if they made it two quid a pop lol.I call bullplop.[/quote]I bet we would have done for that game.  Key game in the promotion race that season.[/quote]Well we''ll never know for sure, still sounds a bit far fetched to me.And hardly proves anything, yeah there will be odd games everyone wants to go to, I don''t think you could use one offs like this as a true gauge.

[birchfest 397]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="kingsway"]but the longer we stay in the top flight then the sense it will make to "grow" the club a massive part of which will be increasing the ground capacity![/quote]The bulk of the club''s income is from TV/Premier League and every £1m spent on expansion will be £1m less spent on the team. Taking money away from the team jeopardises our future in the top league. When we have become established in the Prem AND have the money to pay for expansion, then will be the time to do it.Taking money away from the team to pay for a new stand/stadium will be too much of a risk at this time.

[/quote]Though there needs to come a point when we are able to generate a larger portion of our income from other sources, every team gets the TV money but not every side (especially those that have come up and may be smaller) are capable of filling or having a 90% + a week attendance and the matchday revenue that goes with it. If we are able to see past the short to medium term cost and look at a longer term plan for sustainability its a route we will have to go down, especailly if our wage bill etc starts to go up with bigger signings.

[morty 0]

[quote user="birchfest"][quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="kingsway"]but the longer we stay in the top flight then the sense it will make to "grow" the club a massive part of which will be increasing the ground capacity![/quote]The bulk of the club''s income is from TV/Premier League and every £1m spent on expansion will be £1m less spent on the team. Taking money away from the team jeopardises our future in the top league. When we have become established in the Prem AND have the money to pay for expansion, then will be the time to do it.Taking money away from the team to pay for a new stand/stadium will be too much of a risk at this time.

[/quote]Though there needs to come a point when we are able to generate a larger portion of our income from other sources, every team gets the TV money but not every side (especially those that have come up and may be smaller) are capable of filling or having a 90% + a week attendance and the matchday revenue that goes with it. If we are able to see past the short to medium term cost and look at a longer term plan for sustainability its a route we will have to go down, especailly if our wage bill etc starts to go up with bigger signings.[/quote]Figures I saw recently show we are actually very good at generating money, especially from the restaurants.Whilst I agree with your point, the crux of the whole thing is risk. We''re not a developing business with a plan, we''re a football club, and have no control over our future. A couple of bad results and in a few months time our income could be slashed by 70 million quid, I doubt any business would survive that kind of loss. I think we still have a season or two of sensible squad building to go before we take the plunge with expansion.

[birchfest 397]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="birchfest"][quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="kingsway"]but the longer we stay in the top flight then the sense it will make to "grow" the club a massive part of which will be increasing the ground capacity![/quote]The bulk of the club''s income is from TV/Premier League and every £1m spent on expansion will be £1m less spent on the team. Taking money away from the team jeopardises our future in the top league. When we have become established in the Prem AND have the money to pay for expansion, then will be the time to do it.Taking money away from the team to pay for a new stand/stadium will be too much of a risk at this time.

[/quote]Though there needs to come a point when we are able to generate a larger portion of our income from other sources, every team gets the TV money but not every side (especially those that have come up and may be smaller) are capable of filling or having a 90% + a week attendance and the matchday revenue that goes with it. If we are able to see past the short to medium term cost and look at a longer term plan for sustainability its a route we will have to go down, especailly if our wage bill etc starts to go up with bigger signings.[/quote]Figures I saw recently show we are actually very good at generating money, especially from the restaurants.Whilst I agree with your point, the crux of the whole thing is risk. We''re not a developing business with a plan, we''re a football club, and have no control over our future. A couple of bad results and in a few months time our income could be slashed by 70 million quid, I doubt any business would survive that kind of loss. I think we still have a season or two of sensible squad building to go before we take the plunge with expansion.[/quote]Completely agree, and thats what I personally feel will be the route we go down. I know the idea was 3 seasons up and work would start when we first came up, however I think the goal posts have moved and teams such as Newcastle, Sunderland, bolton and Aston Villa have demonstraighted that there is no such thing as ''comfortably'' mid table. It will have to be at a point where over 2 or 3 summers we have upgrade the quality of our squad so that hopefully we would only be looking to make 3 maybe 4 signings top each summer from that point on.

[ncfcstar 292]

[quote user="morty"]Well we''ll never know for sure, still sounds a bit far fetched to me.And hardly proves anything, yeah there will be odd games everyone wants to go to, I don''t think you could use one offs like this as a true gauge.[/quote]Agreed, I can''t see us expanding the stadium for at least another 3/4 years; if ever.

[morty 0]

[quote user="birchfest"][quote user="morty"][quote user="birchfest"][quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="kingsway"]but the longer we stay in the top flight then the sense it will make to "grow" the club a massive part of which will be increasing the ground capacity![/quote]The bulk of the club''s income is from TV/Premier League and every £1m spent on expansion will be £1m less spent on the team. Taking money away from the team jeopardises our future in the top league. When we have become established in the Prem AND have the money to pay for expansion, then will be the time to do it.Taking money away from the team to pay for a new stand/stadium will be too much of a risk at this time.

[/quote]Though there needs to come a point when we are able to generate a larger portion of our income from other sources, every team gets the TV money but not every side (especially those that have come up and may be smaller) are capable of filling or having a 90% + a week attendance and the matchday revenue that goes with it. If we are able to see past the short to medium term cost and look at a longer term plan for sustainability its a route we will have to go down, especailly if our wage bill etc starts to go up with bigger signings.[/quote]Figures I saw recently show we are actually very good at generating money, especially from the restaurants.Whilst I agree with your point, the crux of the whole thing is risk. We''re not a developing business with a plan, we''re a football club, and have no control over our future. A couple of bad results and in a few months time our income could be slashed by 70 million quid, I doubt any business would survive that kind of loss. I think we still have a season or two of sensible squad building to go before we take the plunge with expansion.[/quote]Completely agree, and thats what I personally feel will be the route we go down. I know the idea was 3 seasons up and work would start when we first came up, however I think the goal posts have moved and teams such as Newcastle, Sunderland, bolton and Aston Villa have demonstraighted that there is no such thing as ''comfortably'' mid table. It will have to be at a point where over 2 or 3 summers we have upgrade the quality of our squad so that hopefully we would only be looking to make 3 maybe 4 signings top each summer from that point on. [/quote]I should imagine the statement was made without taking into account losing our manager, as this has likely set progress back a season or two. Yeah you''re right about the "comfortable mid table" issue, which is something we all strive for a la Fulham.

[morty 0]

[quote user="ncfcstar"][quote user="morty"]Well we''ll never know for sure, still sounds a bit far fetched to me.And hardly proves anything, yeah there will be odd games everyone wants to go to, I don''t think you could use one offs like this as a true gauge.[/quote]Agreed, I can''t see us expanding the stadium for at least another 3/4 years; if ever.[/quote]Wouldn''t surprise me in the slightest either.

[Sussexyellow 55]

I believe those that want to see expansion are doing so from wanting to improve the look of the ground. Well I think we can all empathise with that.

However the extra seats would have to be filled and I would seriously question whether there is the demand to be able to do so.

As a casual ticket purchaser it has been much easier to get tickets this year. Last year it was log on at 9am as soon as they went on sale to supermembers and hope. Tickets did not get as far as going on general sale.

This year I have learnt that I can take a much more leisurely approach to purchase. The 9am rush is no longer necessary. Yes we still sell out but tickets do reach general sale and are available close to the day of the game and even on it.

Next year if the entertainment value of our football does not improve I predict it will become even easier to buy casual tickets. Realistically we will only sell out 30,000 for a few games a season.

Better to stick with what we have now and the atmosphere a sold out stadium creates. Investment in the team must be the priority.

OTBC

[birchfest 397]

See I still think that with the combination of having to increase the away capacity  (teams like Man U, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool will always take the full amount) and also the large Season ticket waiting list being significantly cleared it would be possible for it to easily be 30,000 a match. Thats only another 3,000 fans, which would include an additional 500 or so away fans, maybe another 1,000 season tickets from the waiting list and an increase on the current general sale tickets of around 1,500. Games against any of the top 6 will sell this out, as will any games of ''significance'' much like how the tickets for these last few games are in real demand as their is a cup final feel to it.Furthermore, we should have grown as a club by the time we get to the stage that we are capable of doing this; more players of the RVW ilk in our squad and hopefull a team with future europa league aspirations; our fan base will increase from being a top flight regular.

[morty 0]

[quote user="birchfest"]See I still think that with the combination of having to increase the away capacity  (teams like Man U, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool will always take the full amount) and also the large Season ticket waiting list being significantly cleared it would be possible for it to easily be 30,000 a match. Thats only another 3,000 fans, which would include an additional 500 or so away fans, maybe another 1,000 season tickets from the waiting list and an increase on the current general sale tickets of around 1,500. Games against any of the top 6 will sell this out, as will any games of ''significance'' much like how the tickets for these last few games are in real demand as their is a cup final feel to it.Furthermore, we should have grown as a club by the time we get to the stage that we are capable of doing this; more players of the RVW ilk in our squad and hopefull a team with future europa league aspirations; our fan base will increase from being a top flight regular. [/quote]4th word in, thats the problem, theres no guarantees.How many clubs have gone through this thought process (before there was even a double (nearly triple) dip recession) and are now languishing in the Championship with half empty grounds (a certain team in Suffolk being a prime example)?I buy 3 season tickets because of the supply demand issues right now, and you know what? If I could be sure of getting tickets to any game I want I probably wouldn''t be buying my season tickets. And it wouldn''t surprise me if a lot of folks were in a similar position.I don''t think predicting crowds is very clear cut at all.

[kingsway 94]

The same as assuming we won''t get bigger crowds Morty when all the evidence and facts from the clubs info suggests we could!

 

In the 1990''s when 16,000+ was a good crowd I''d have thought the same as you in that we don''t need to increase by much if any but the club has changed since them days and more people want to go to football and our crowds have held well ever since the last few years of the South stand and the completion of the Jarold stand. Combined with Premiership football which will always see people coming out of the woodwork to watch and the population getting bigger means thats its a realistic propersition to consider expansion when its sensible to do so EG, clubs debt free, had a few years top flight TV money behind them and the squads been built up sufficently. The club are doing exactly this!

 

The club knows more about demand than what any of us do on here and this old "expansion" subject has kept coming up for a number of years now and the main reason for that is the fact we can fill our present useable 26840 capacity near to full most times!

 

Mcnally has been brilliant for this club and hes all for expansion when the times right and I''d suspect his judgement is far superior to most of us on here!

 

It will happen when the times right!

[morty 0]

[quote user="kingsway"]

The same as assuming we won''t get bigger crowds Morty when all the evidence and facts from the clubs info suggests we could!

 

In the 1990''s when 16,000+ was a good crowd I''d have thought the same as you in that we don''t need to increase by much if any but the club has changed since them days and more people want to go to football and our crowds have held well ever since the last few years of the South stand and the completion of the Jarold stand. Combined with Premiership football which will always see people coming out of the woodwork to watch and the population getting bigger means thats its a realistic propersition to consider expansion when its sensible to do so EG, clubs debt free, had a few years top flight TV money behind them and the squads been built up sufficently. The club are doing exactly this!

 

The club knows more about demand than what any of us do on here and this old "expansion" subject has kept coming up for a number of years now and the main reason for that is the fact we can fill our present useable 26840 capacity near to full most times!

 

Mcnally has been brilliant for this club and hes all for expansion when the times right and I''d suspect his judgement is far superior to most of us on here!

 

It will happen when the times right!

[/quote]I don''t disagree with a lot you have posted there.But, there really are so many factors. A lot of our increase in crowds was because they were virtually giving the season tickets away, they cost a wee bit more now and yes, there are lots of people on the waiting list, but its another thing stumping up the money.Folks have already said that its easier to get tickets this season, and I predict a small drop next season as the novelty factor wears off a bit.And its not a viable option to just expand a wee bit, and be on the cautious side. It would be too expensive doing it in dribs and drabs. So the board would have to take their balls in their hands and replace the city stand with something similar to the Jarrold, and go to 35,000.Risky.

[Sussexyellow 55]

The issue is multi faceted.

Even giving season tickets to the waiting list is not as straight forward as it may seem .The waiting list is people like me who buy the casual tickets. Now I have not worked it out but it has got to be close run as to whether I spend more on casual tickets than the cost of a season ticket. So me getting a season ticket could mean a loss of income to the club from me individually.

So yes it would be good to increase our season ticket numbers but the club would need to be very confident that it could sell the extra casual tickets particularly as part of the prime demand will have taken up season tickets. As I suggested in my earlier post the evidence from my own experience is not compelling that their is the extra demand.

Also you can not assume that the bigger clubs will take their full allocation. Spurs did not this year. Block H was available to home support - its not when clubs take their full allocation.

But I think Morty has hit the biggest issue. If there were a route to a further small expansion I think it would be taken. It would appear not and the next step is a big incremental leap.

Actually the biggest issue is that in the premiership the TV revenues are the be all and end all. Stopping in the division yields millions more than the most optimistic projections of how many seats we can sell.

[Martin Bryant 0]

i still cant believe 18million to build a stand.. you could build 50 4bedroom houses for that price.. and the stand is just a few seats :-P

[Bill 1,788]

Two points that are repeatedly avoided.

Firstly the cost. Currently our ''ticktet'' income is around £400 per person, which would mean were the Main Stand to be demolished and rebuild with 8000 new seats this would generate around £1.6m per season. That however presumes we would continue to sell out all games and there would be no downward pressure on ticket prices. It appears now that the consensus is that there won''t be sellouts at every game and the evidence from the club is that price will have to fall to stimulate demand.

Assume for the moment that the club figure of £20m to replace the Main stand is correct then £1.6m (more likely far less) is not going to meet the repayments on the loan needed so will require a subsidy of a couple of million or so. Fine some might say whilst we are in the PL but possibly disasterous were we to not be, when the likelihood is that ticket revenue would fall, requiring a far bigger subsisdy.

　

Secondly the practicalities. Never amongst all the idiotic bleat do we ever hear of where the 4000 folk in the Main Stand are going to be relocated whilst that stand is being rebuilt. Solve that one first, then we can talk about how much the club should divert from the football to subsidise a bunch of happy clappy glory hunters.

 

[BarclayWazza 91]

We''re assuming a loan is going to be taken out with the risk of a subsidy hampering us should we get relegated. With all this money due to come in, would it not be an idea to set aside £5 million a season then after 4 years we have £20 million saved, an idea of the long term future of the club and the demand on tickets. If we''re established in the PL, the £20m is there, if we''ve dropped a league, either sit on it until we''re in a position to build or use it to get players to come back up.

[Rolf Harris 31]

City1st is so against stadium expansion.

[Bill 1,788]

"City1st is so against stadium expansion. "

 

 

that is incredibly stupid, even by your usual standards

 

 

 

 

 

[Rolf Harris 31]

[quote user="City1st"]

"City1st is so against stadium expansion. "

 

 

that is incredibly stupid, even by your usual standards

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

Love you too.

[Big Vince 319]

Surely the best way to overcome the difficulty of paying for a new stand without taking money away from the football team is to get rid of Delia & Wynn Jones? A new megabucks investor coming in could simply just bankroll the whole shebang. But of course there will have to be dead bodies to walk over before Delia makes way. 

[Tumbleweed 106]

If you put another tier on the City Stand I don''t know whether you could actually do that without having to rehouse- presumably this would be a 12/15 month project and if the closed season was used for any works requiring that lower tier to be closed, could you conceivably leave the rest intact, albeit with no roof for a bit?

 

Couldn''t we just buy back the hotel, knock it down and put in a corner with 2K seats for away fans so the Jarrold became NCFC only?  I don''t know what the new numbers are but the hotel can''t be worth much in comparison to the value of that stupid hotel. That might be a lot cheaper than redoing the City stand.

[Bill 1,788]

You can''t simply put another stand on top of the Main Stand, the footings/structure etc will not allow it - so the whole stand would have to come down and be rebuilt. So where do those 4,000 folk go, presuming there is space for chnaging rooms etc elsewhere in the ground ?

 

The hotel would be a hideous cost to buy, if only because of the very long lease held on it. Corner seats stand etc are extremely costly which would simply mean more money having to be diverted away from the football side of things to make up the difference between ticket income and repayment costs.

 

As before can anyone guarantee that we would be in the PL for the next 20 years or so - or should we have a deal whereby the loan is repaid overa few years ? NO board of directors would countenance that.

 

 

 

 

 

ps from what I have been told NO ONE  who joined the season ticket waiting list when we were promoted to the Championship has not been ''given'' a season ticket ..... so who are these poor ''horphans'' and unfortunate mites who are supposedly being locked out by the wicked and evil board (and owners) ?

 

 

 

 

 

[BOO 0]

How many are on the waiting list?

[Warren Hill 0]

[quote user="Big Vince"]Surely the best way to overcome the difficulty of paying for a new stand without taking money away from the football team is to get rid of Delia & Wynn Jones? A new megabucks investor coming in could simply just bankroll the whole shebang. But of course there will have to be dead bodies to walk over before Delia makes way. [/quote]

 

Cor, this old drum hasn''t had a bang in a while. So, Big Mince, who do you want instead of Delia? Marcus Evans perhaps...

 

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="morty"]

How many clubs have gone through this thought process and are now languishing in the Championship with half empty grounds (a certain team in Suffolk being a prime example)?

[/quote]

But Morty, we are not disloyal Binmen. 

OTBC!

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="City1st"]

Two points that are repeatedly avoided.

Firstly the cost. Currently our ''ticktet'' income is around £400 per person,

[/quote]

I bet those sitting in the Cathedral Lounge area and the other padded areas (four areas in total?) would love to pay only £400 a season....

I thought their season tickets were around £700 - £800 a go?

If they rebuilt the GW stand, I would expect more corporate boxes etc. and alot more revenue from the use of a new stand.

 

I''m not expecting a new stand until we have saved up the £20m. "petty" cash.

As for moving 4000 fans, thats easy, just move the silent Barclay enders ...nobody will notice.

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]

 I don''t know what the new numbers are but the hotel can''t be worth much in comparison to the value of that stupid hotel. [/quote]

 

Could you please clarify.

Thank you.