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flecky76

Should lack of Premiership experience be a concern?

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Micky Quinn on Talksport this morning mentioned about Norwich and that lack of Premiership proven players is a conern and that he will be "lumping on Norwich to go straight back down".

Now there are so many angles you can look at this. Firstly, who are we to argue with St Paul, though of course the proof will be in the pudding. Whilst the signings so far have been ok, the fact is we are going into a league which is streets ahead of the Championship in terms of quality. Whilst I appreciate having players who have the hunger, I do feel that we need at least some degree of experience from the top flight, as I think a good willing and hunger can only take you so far.

Quinn used Blackpool as the example, though I don''t seem to recall Blackpool signing too many decent Championship players going into the Prem last year.

Also, I don''t see QPR or Swansea doing more than us as yet, so there are 2 ways of looking at this.

For what it''s worth, I DO feel we need at least someone either Centre Back or Centre Midfield who we need to bring in as a ''WOW'' signing who has some experience, but on the flip side understand they don''t grow on trees.

We are at least building for the future if we do find ourselves back in the Championship next season, unlike what we did back in 2004/05. Although the Premiership signings from that season proved to be disastrous, I guess the intention was to mix the players coming in - it''s just that our Premiership experienced players arriving then were Gary Doherty and Simon Charlton, so that really shows it isn''t always the answer!

The end result is probably of the ''damned if we do, damned if we don''t variety''!

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The problem is ''different angles'' I see it as more of the same please!

Lambert hasnt got prem experience should we be replacing him?

I think he will only buy in what he knows.....like him young hungry and eager to do well at the highest level. I dont see why it wont work this year, I think we have improved the squad again already and with a few more team players we will suprise a few so called experts/pundits/teams!

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who cares. we''re signing skinheads (vaughn, morison, johnson, de laet) and I think bennets got the early days of a ''fro coming on. these players are gonna kick up enough noize that all the dross £25k per week minimum "premiership experience" wastrals will be made to look like tuppany chumps.

ps fugg off wrath of the barclay you bad wools. I know you''re reading this.

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Premiership experience is bullsh*t, Wes Hoolahan doesnt have Premiership experience but would you swap him for Luis Boa Morte who has played Premiership all his life? I wouldnt. All players have to start somewhere, most don''t start in the Premiership, doesnt mean they are not Premeirship standard they just havent got a break to play at that level. I am not concerned with experience, quality is more important, who cares if they have played in the Prem or not, as long as they have the talent to play our style of play and does what Lambert wants him to do.

Relating to this Quinn tart comparing us to Blackpool, i dont see much similarity at all. We finished 2nd, they scraped into 6th, collecting 15 fewer points than us. We have a much bigger budget for transfers and wages, plus whilst we may be buying players outside of the premiership, we have bought the stand out players from lower league sides, ie Bennett and Morison, whereas Blackpool were desperately buying anyone on the cheap who couldnt even get in the side, ie Puncheon. Theres no real comparison other than both sides got promoted, the whole approach is different.

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[quote user="flecky76"] Although the Premiership signings from that season proved to be disastrous, I guess the intention was to mix the players coming in - it''s just that our Premiership experienced players arriving then were Gary Doherty and Simon Charlton, so that really shows it isn''t always the answer! The end result is probably of the ''damned if we do, damned if we don''t variety''! [/quote]

Well with those 2 players in particular they weren''t necessarily bad signings but they just weren''t used right.

 

Charlton was a competitive kind of player who could "do a job" at left-back or in midfield but obviously the mistake was deploying him as a centreback when he didn''t have the height we desperately needed.

 

And then of course we tried to use Doherty as a forward when we''d have been much better served using his height at the back. And for whatever people (who don''t know what they''re talking about) want to say about the Doc he was actually doing fine in the Premier League at Spurs until he broke his leg. It wasn''t as if the guy had never cut it at that level, he''d done well for them and played in some important matches but then he broke his leg and struggled to get back in the team.

 

I don''t think we''ll see that kind of thing happening under the current manager and regime.

 

 

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[quote user="UEA Canary"]Premiership experience is bullsh*t, Wes Hoolahan doesnt have Premiership experience but would you swap him for Luis Boa Morte who has played Premiership all his life? I wouldnt. All players have to start somewhere, most don''t start in the Premiership, doesnt mean they are not Premeirship standard they just havent got a break to play at that level. I am not concerned with experience, quality is more important, who cares if they have played in the Prem or not, as long as they have the talent to play our style of play and does what Lambert wants him to do. Relating to this Quinn tart comparing us to Blackpool, i dont see much similarity at all. We finished 2nd, they scraped into 6th, collecting 15 fewer points than us. We have a much bigger budget for transfers and wages, plus whilst we may be buying players outside of the premiership, we have bought the stand out players from lower league sides, ie Bennett and Morison, whereas Blackpool were desperately buying anyone on the cheap who couldnt even get in the side, ie Puncheon. Theres no real comparison other than both sides got promoted, the whole approach is different.[/quote]

Exactly. Similarly, would you swap Holt for Heskey?

 

You''re also correct about Blackpool too. Holloway made a lot of poor signings and then tried to blame relegation on Charlie Adam.

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The way is see it is that Football is football. its played in a better standard the higher you go, but there is no weight in this idea that you need speciaist premire league players with experience to survive.We are in that league because last years team proved they were too good for the Championship... so where does that leave them? Well that suggest they ARE premire league quality and therefore as good as some of the players in the teams in the bottom haf of the table. And what does this experience even mean.. a player from West Ham who experienced getting turned over on a regular basis. Still a Premire League experience of sorts.All of the current stars and squad players in the premire league had to start somewhere and many came from lower leagues here and abroad. Personally Id like maybe 1 or 2 players who have been there before but its not vital at all.

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It''s a bit like the old Alan Hansen "gaffe" from 1995 when he said that Man U weren''t going to win anything with "kids", meaning that they didn''t have the Premier League experience necessary to win anything. He was proved wrong when they won the league and cup double.In other words, if you are good enough, then you are experienced enough! Lack of quality might be a problem with some of our "fringe" players, who are really only at the standard of the lower leagues, but I honestly don''t think there is that big a gap between the top of the Championship and the lower to middle reaches of the Premier League. Also, we appear to be strengthening our squad, whereas QPR and Swansea seem to be selling off some of their best players, so if we can finish above those two, we only need to be above one of the other seventeen in order to survive.I don''t want to re-start the old arguments about what went wrong in 04-05, but how many of our best players that season were the ones with prior top-level experience, and how many had come from the lower levels? After all, people keep saying that if we had signed Dean Ashton in summer 04 we would have stayed up (and they are probably right), but he had no Premiership experience when we signed him.

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I refuse to listen to talk sport. They are the radio equivelent of the star and must have one of the worse line up of commentators/journalists going.

They say stuff just get a reaction like the other dau when they spent ages slagging off arsenal. A friend had it on in his car and we just laughed at the rubbish they were trying to put across as fact.

Look at West Ham. They must have been one of the more prem experienced teams and yet they went down.

Its about experience rather than just prem experience. and then off setting that with youth.

These pundits had tarwaabt as the champs best player last year despite his toy throwing and individulism.

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If you''re good enough, then expierience doesn''t matter. Last season, a lot of fans compained about Norwich''s lack of expierience, yet the team was good enough and Norwich got promoted. Whilst the step up to the premier league will be tough, I have faith that Norwich will not struggle because of a lack of experience.

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Interesting thread.

 

Thinking about last year, although our squad had changed a lot from the one that got relegated from the Championship, we weren''t going to get caught out by a difference in playing style in the Champ, it was just similar to the top end clubs in League 1 (Leeds, Huddersfield, Millwall etc) with most of the teams at roughly that level IMO.

 

Whereas with the Prem, we have hardly any experience of how the game is played there.  So what are the differences between the Prem and Champ now ?  I''m thinking of :

  • Tactics - do Prem teams play more of a possession game, building from the back ?  Are they better at adjusting their tactics to the opposition ?
  • Skillful players - e.g. if you look at Tarrabt, how do you adjust to the fact that almost every team will probably have several quality players, better than him ?
  • Gamesmanship - seems to me there is more diving, holding up free kicks, off the ball stuff in the Prem.  The Champ is more honest.
  • Profile - in the Prem incidents will get picked up and players will get noticed.  In the Champ we were mostly under the radar.
  • Anything else ?

So at the moment I am thinking it would be good to have one or two players who have real familiarity with all of this.  But equally I think it''s a good point that last time, the main signing we all wish we''d made at the start of the season was from Crewe.

 

Frankly I don''t watch a lot of Prem games, really just MOTD, so I''d be interested in comments on the above from people who watch Prem games regularly.

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[quote user="211203"]

Interesting thread.

 

Thinking about last year, although our squad had changed a lot from the one that got relegated from the Championship, we weren''t going to get caught out by a difference in playing style in the Champ, it was just similar to the top end clubs in League 1 (Leeds, Huddersfield, Millwall etc) with most of the teams at roughly that level IMO.

 

Whereas with the Prem, we have hardly any experience of how the game is played there.  So what are the differences between the Prem and Champ now ?  I''m thinking of :

  • Tactics - do Prem teams play more of a possession game, building from the back ?  Are they better at adjusting their tactics to the opposition ?
  • Building from the back depends on the team. Stoke,for example, no. Arsenal, yes. The PL is probably the least tactically dominated league in all of the big european leagues. Norwich are probably more tactically flexible than your average PL team.
  • Skillful players - e.g. if you look at Tarrabt, how do you adjust to the fact that almost every team will probably have several quality players, better than him ?
  • By Tarrabt players do you mean goal scorers and creators? Not every team has a playmaker like Tarrabt. Most teams don''t and highlight different factors i.e. Bolton and Kevin Davies (Strength, power) and Stoke (Fast wingers).
  • Gamesmanship - seems to me there is more diving, holding up free kicks, off the ball stuff in the Prem.  The Champ is more honest.
  • Yes, just yes.
  • Profile - in the Prem incidents will get picked up and players will get noticed.  In the Champ we were mostly under the radar.
  • Yes.
[/quote]

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I keep saying I would like an experienced centre back but now I am doubting that and thinking, do I want and experienced centre back or a good centre back?  Take Luke Chambers from Forest for example, he is a good centre back who I would love here and he is someone who we can realistically get.  If you compare him to some of the ''experienced'' players some people have mentioned like the Birmingham centre backs then I don''t think he is any worse and as others have said, if you''re good enough your experienced enough.

 

The type of ''experienced'' players we can get are rejects who will probably be quite old and cost a fortune, do you want one of them or a young promising talent hungry for success?

 

I think we are doing it the right way and whichever way Paul Lambert decides to buy players then thats fine by me.  Name a bad Lambert signing so far?

 

One thing however which would be a concern is if we start the season and all of a sudden our players start to give respect to the seasoned Premier League players because they are a bit in awe (sp) of them.  If they do that then we are in trouble but I can''t see Lambert letting that happen. 

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I''m not really too worried about lack of prem experience although do think we could do with one or two proven performers in key defensive positions. I am sure many of these young players will step up to the plate but inevitably a couple will fall short.

Of more concern to me is adding some power and agression to the spine of the team. I think at CB and particularly defensive CM we are still a little bit lightweight and could maybe do with a bit more presence. Even in the champ we did let teams run at us from midfield at times and have shots at goal and if that happens in the prem they will punish us more regularly. I think one of he biggest question marks is whether we can get away with playing Fox as the deep sitting midfielder. On the one hand he makes us tick when he plays there and on the ball he''s definitely good enough but I just wonder if he has the physical presence to play there at the top level. I hope he does as I think he''s a great player.

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The point about experienced Premier League players is that we would have two options:

1. Get players that none of the other premier league teams want - most players would prefer a more secure "bet."

2. Pay over the odds. Some players may be "bribe-able" with wages that are in excess of what they are offered elsewhere (or a longer contract to "see out their days.")

I''m sure if you do this often enough you will secure the "odd gem" (the old Harry Redknapp technique) but you will a lot end up with a lot of expensive dross on your books - it''s why so many relegated teams end up in financial trouble.

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Good posts, and it is of great relief to see a reversal of perception here. Probably incurred by the success over the past year, it is of distinct disparity with the soundbites of last year.Whereas a similar thread last year must of conjured a 10+ page array of very brief inane replies, with frighteningly inadequate substance in quantity over quality, we now find calculated, thought-out arguments, that are more concerned with cultivating an equlibrial understanding rather than appealing to cliche''d ad populums, that appreciates quality over quantity.Experience to some people ensures a standard, even if it is poor (such as the relegated candidates that have been mooted). The step into the unknown confounds every man and woman, and this disseminates in many regards, so it is of no real surprise to see a symptomised lack of confidence amongst us at time of progress; and although it is of little substance to stand for poor proven players, to naive people, it is at least of a substance the void of the ''unknown'' doesn''t share.However we owe it to this success of our ideas of our own to keep at them, against the current trend of buying ''big names'', for it is long proving to be the better mode for that success.Under Lambert we can be the ''reneissance'' to the weathered naissance of English football. We''d better of relying on his and his teams assessments of players (you''d like to think we have a scouting system for some reason after all) than the unqualified, extremely basic and blunt process of assessment your average by the bar fan endeavours with, or lord forbid, typical bigoted critic or pundit (and it doesn''t take an educated man to see that the latter is merely a glorified version of the former).

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[quote user="Power Hamster"]Also, we appear to be strengthening our squad, whereas QPR and Swansea seem to be selling off some of their best players, so if we can finish above those two, we only need to be above one of the other seventeen in order to survive.[/quote]Another interesting point on top of that is that our form post-second-half/one-third of the season was top of the table in the Championship, and quite remarkably so. Once we had assembled our spine in the midst of gaining a foot in the Championship, supported by a short refining process in January, we were quite arguably the best side in the league. That, and that we have both retained and improved to a far greater extent than either, you can''t help but feel we are of the strontgest candidate out of the three for survival.I posit that with even this much of the window to go, there will be at least these two teams that finish below us this season (though i believe we certainly have it in our armoury to acquire safety, quite comfortably).

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Some good comments on here and I agree with much of what has been said. Through my opening post, I was really intending to throw open the question as I really wasn''t sure what my thoughts on requiring ''Premiership experience'' were - I could think of advantages and disadvantages to both sides of the argument!!

In all, I am erring on the side that this won''t be required. Primarily, the ideal people are not available, let along when we get into wages costs etc. (and we haven''t even mentioned Graham Stuart from 2004/05, who albeit only joined around March time, did not add anything to our squad).

One other interesting discussion, though admittedly we would be getting way ahead of ourselves here, would be to consider this: should Norwich remain in the Premiership after this season, what would be our transfer policy next summer? Would it change compared to this summer? Perhaps a discussion to be had next May... here''s hoping!!

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N0-one objects to a few "hungry players" from Championship or even League 1 but the lack of players who have played at the top level is getting very skewed now.

Surely experience of having done it before must count for something. A lack of baggage is a plus I would agree but surely when we want to cling onto a lead at say WBA, the been there done that from a couple would come in very handy.

Lambert''s transfer policy smacks of the dogmatic to me., ie it must be lower leagues with no possibility of overseas or Prem. To put it another way who would have been happy with our 5-6 signings in May, with the possible exception of Bennett. They have been signed and everyone seems delighted

I am concerned about lack of experience especially at the back. Without any more defenders we are not going to keep any clean sheets at all I would surmise, we after all kept 3 i think, from Jan 1 in the Championship.

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[quote user="jamesg"]N0-one objects to a few "hungry players" from Championship or even League 1 but the lack of players who have played at the top level is getting very skewed now.

Surely experience of having done it before must count for something. A lack of baggage is a plus I would agree but surely when we want to cling onto a lead at say WBA, the been there done that from a couple would come in very handy.

Lambert''s transfer policy smacks of the dogmatic to me., ie it must be lower leagues with no possibility of overseas or Prem. To put it another way who would have been happy with our 5-6 signings in May, with the possible exception of Bennett. They have been signed and everyone seems delighted

I am concerned about lack of experience especially at the back. Without any more defenders we are not going to keep any clean sheets at all I would surmise, we after all kept 3 i think, from Jan 1 in the Championship.[/quote]All that the expierienced players Norwich could get in would have ''done'' is get relegated or released from their club.

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Ok how about Reo-Coker, Cohen, Upson, Gabbidon, Hitzleberger, Carew etc

I would love a couple of them, and yes some are from W Ham what we would spend on wages we would save on transfer fees I would have thought.

Surely we should have a mix of signings not all from Championship or lower

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[quote user="Gareth"][quote user="jamesg"]N0-one objects to a few "hungry players" from Championship or even League 1 but the lack of players who have played at the top level is getting very skewed now.

Surely experience of having done it before must count for something. A lack of baggage is a plus I would agree but surely when we want to cling onto a lead at say WBA, the been there done that from a couple would come in very handy.

Lambert''s transfer policy smacks of the dogmatic to me., ie it must be lower leagues with no possibility of overseas or Prem. To put it another way who would have been happy with our 5-6 signings in May, with the possible exception of Bennett. They have been signed and everyone seems delighted

I am concerned about lack of experience especially at the back. Without any more defenders we are not going to keep any clean sheets at all I would surmise, we after all kept 3 i think, from Jan 1 in the Championship.[/quote]All that the expierienced players Norwich could get in would have ''done'' is get relegated or released from their club.[/quote]What do you mean Lambert''s transfer policy ''must be'' lower league players? Are you seriously suggesting that Lambert is stupid enough to ignore quality premier or oversea players? You must be watching a completly diffirent manager from me! Lambert has already brought in premier league players (Surman, Barnett, Vaughan) they might not have played 100 games each but they have played at that level! Lambert will buy premier league and overseas players when the time is right, not before, not after. Lambert has already indicated in interviews that his no foreign imports policy will only exist until the scouting network he has is large (and skilled enough) to find quality foreign players! Do you seriously rate the management team so little? Do you even attend games? or pay attention to any interviews Lambert gives? You apparently don''t if you think that Paul Lambert is so apocalyptically stupid!

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[quote user="jamesg"]Ok how about Reo-Coker, Cohen, Upson, Gabbidon, Hitzleberger, Carew etc

I would love a couple of them, and yes some are from W Ham what we would spend on wages we would save on transfer fees I would have thought.

Surely we should have a mix of signings not all from Championship or lower[/quote]Reo-Coker, Carew and Tamir Cohen were considered not good enough by teams that were both extremely poor last season! And the rest were releagted! so you prove my point. The only players Norwich could sign with this, oh-so valuable, premier league expierence were either released or relegated! The only player out of those targets I would consider any good is Hitzlsperger but he''s probably going to Aston Villa! The rest are no better than what Norwich have got. Reo-Coker is a limited midfielder whos main job is too foul better players. Cohen is alright but probably not much better than what Norwich have got. Upson is absoloute cack and the fact he made the England national team tells you everything you need to know about the state of English football. Gabbidon is much the same and Carew is a slower, taller Grant Holt who can score goals but will probably join Stoke where he can enjoy big punts upfield to his head. If tis is the type of signings Norwich could look forward to with expierence than I am extremelly thankful that Norwich have avoided them!

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In answer to your questions

No Paul Lambert is not stupid, he is a tactical genius but the jury is at least partially out on transfer dealing. Is his transfer policy to buy from leagues lower to us this summer, er yes, can you really argue against this ie they all played below Premership level last season though two were on loan to Championship

Does he ignore players available on frees who don''t fit his targets, ingredients ie is he shopping on a policy basis, yes i would have said.

Yes, I have attended many hundreds of games, and I think that you can make a case for our strikers being up to it in the top league, maybe for the midfield, the defence seems way short to me, though its my opinion only

You are right about our overseas scouting, it seems absolutely non existant, to be fair perhaps it because we have risen so quickly.

i rate our Manager very highly but I think he is following a very untested road. It may bear dividends who can say. If it comes off then i will partially eat my words, partially because as I have said the mix of signings seems very skewed towards a certain type of background, not because i object to all the signings, I am looking forward to seeing Bennett and Vaughan to a lesser degree. Johnson however is not a signing that excites me one iota

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I think you have written off players who have between them gone for over £30M in transfers a bit easily.

Cohen was a reasonably regular starter for a good Bolton team, Hitlzleberger is a very good player indeed with many German caps. Reo-Coker is a leader and has a bit more skill than indicated, Carew is a massive handful but I grant you has got baggage. Upson and Gabbidon were/are? both excellent defenders though their best days may or may not be in the past, neither is that old or that "cack".

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I think the lack of experience is a concern. I''d like to see one or two older hands brought in, and would trust Lambert to get the right characters, not just mercenaries looking for one last pay-day.

The argument that if you played in a relegated side you must be rubbish is utterly facile. Scott Parker was the footballer of the year. Would people have been ridiculing any Premier League clubs'' attempts to buy Huckerby, Green or Ashton the year we got relegated?

I can''t for the life of me imagine we could sign Upson, but I''d be delighted if we did.

Lambert is the best manager we''ve had for years, but it is acceptable to question his decision making on an internet message board. Doesn''t mean you think he''s stupid.

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[quote user="Gareth"][quote user="211203"]

Interesting thread.

 

Thinking about last year, although our squad had changed a lot from the one that got relegated from the Championship, we weren''t going to get caught out by a difference in playing style in the Champ, it was just similar to the top end clubs in League 1 (Leeds, Huddersfield, Millwall etc) with most of the teams at roughly that level IMO.

 

Whereas with the Prem, we have hardly any experience of how the game is played there.  So what are the differences between the Prem and Champ now ?  I''m thinking of :

  • Tactics - do Prem teams play more of a possession game, building from the back ?  Are they better at adjusting their tactics to the opposition ?

  • Building from the back depends on the team. Stoke,for example, no. Arsenal, yes. The PL is probably the least tactically dominated league in all of the big european leagues. Norwich are probably more tactically flexible than your average PL team.

  • Skillful players - e.g. if you look at Tarrabt, how do you adjust to the fact that almost every team will probably have several quality players, better than him ?

  • By Tarrabt players do you mean goal scorers and creators? Not every team has a playmaker like Tarrabt. Most teams don''t and highlight different factors i.e. Bolton and Kevin Davies (Strength, power) and Stoke (Fast wingers).

  • Gamesmanship - seems to me there is more diving, holding up free kicks, off the ball stuff in the Prem.  The Champ is more honest.

  • Yes, just yes.

  • Profile - in the Prem incidents will get picked up and players will get noticed.  In the Champ we were mostly under the radar.

  • Yes.

[/quote][/quote]

 

Good points.

 

When I said Taraabt, really I was meaning players like Gareth Bale or Fabregas who can do something out of the ordinary.

 

Overall this thread makes me thing we could do with at least one quality CB as a sgning, preferably with some Prem experience, to help stop us getting caught out with naivety against these sort of quality players and also gamesmanship in the Prem etc.  Obviously you''re going to concede goals against top players but our experience last time shows that the difference between success and failure can come down to a few points lost from the odd goal conceded in key games.

 

I have immense faith in PL after last season.  E.g. when Barnett was injured I thought we had no chance of automatic promotion.  But given how well we''ve strengthened up front /attacking midfield, this is the main area I''m looking to see a signing or two now.

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I can''t wait for next May when we comfortably finish clear of relegation with NO apparent premiership superstars in our team.

All these so called pundits - Quinn/Lawrenson being perfect examples - simply know very little about football so put their money on clubs like us to come back down as we are easy targets. This is going to be so sweet shoving it back down their throats.

Unfortunately once they all realise how good we actually are then they will jump on the ''glad to have Norwich in the premier'' and ''they''ve really freshened up the division with their style of play'' bandwagons forgetting their shortsighted, drivel based opinions they come out with now.

This kind of crap makes me livid.

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