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Canary Ascent

Doherty, Charlton, Helveg and Jonson

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I forgot De Laet!

Just guessing on the two more really. As I see it De Laet provides the competition/cover for the full backs. I would''ve thought we''d be looking at some further experience/competition at centre back.

There are also strong rumours regarding Fraser Forster again and that makes sense to provide competition for Ruddy.

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To be fair, When we signed Helveg, I was bl00dy impressed! At one time he was one of, if not the, best full backs in world football, and I believe won player of the year at least once for both Milan clubs. He obviously disappointed here, but this proves to me atleast, that you should never speculate how good a player will be until they have appeared in the green and yellow for a few games first! Pilkington, Bennett, Vaughan, Morison and RDL do definately seem very shrewd/clever signings however, which could turn out to be some of the best signings of our recent seasons 

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For me, we are definitely a GK and CB short.

I wouldn''t mind an extra defensive-minded midfielder either.

Then a late move for Pacheco to complete our attack. He wouldn''t need to be registered (so wouldn''t affect our 25), and could compete both up-front and with Hoolahan.

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Agree with you Ryan, I was pleased with Helveg initially and in fairness I think he got better when played in his natural position. I just think it''s the hunger that will benefit us this time round with players on the up rather than players on the way down.

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I think you might be right about Pacheco CanaryJames. He would give us that competition that Hoolahan may need to keep him on his toes. Albeit I understand both Bennett and Pilkington can be played centrally as well as on the wing.

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I think we''re relying on hindsight a little too much here. Charlton was an experienced PL defender, Helveg was massively experienced at CL and international level and Jonson came highly rated. Doherty was signed late on in what looks now like an act of desperation but wasn''t the divisive figure he was by the time of his departure.Are our new signings this time around that much better? Do we just trust Paul Lambert more that we ever did Nigel Worthington? Is that justified? I for one can''t wait for the season to start so we can stop speculating and actully see what this team is capable of.

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[quote user="Shack Attack"]I think we''re relying on hindsight a little too much here. Charlton was an experienced PL defender, Helveg was massively experienced at CL and international level and Jonson came highly rated. Doherty was signed late on in what looks now like an act of desperation but wasn''t the divisive figure he was by the time of his departure.

Are our new signings this time around that much better? Do we just trust Paul Lambert more that we ever did Nigel Worthington? Is that justified? I for one can''t wait for the season to start so we can stop speculating and actully see what this team is capable of.
[/quote]

I think the signings are much more positive because there are fewer obvious gaps in the squad. Aside from McKenzie and Svensson we were obviously short of frontline strikers last time. This was painfully illustrated by Doherty playing up front during the opening part of the season. You can''t guarantee anything in football, but I am pretty certain any of Vaughan, Morison, Holt and Jackson will pose a greater threat than the Doc! The one signing which does concern me is De Laet. Being left footed he does not provide natural cover at right back and I felt when he played for Man Utd during their centre back crisis about 18 months ago he looked far from convincing against Fulham. So I do have concerns there if Martin or a centre back were iinjured.

 

Obviously we dont know how Lambert will take to Premier League management. However the one thing he does have over Worthington is that he has already had experience of improving a promotion winning squad. So he does have understanding of balance required of strengthing the squad whilst attempting to maintain the positive elements within the squad which won promotion in the first place.

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[quote user="Shack Attack"]I think we''re relying on hindsight a little too much here. Charlton was an experienced PL defender, Helveg was massively experienced at CL and international level and Jonson came highly rated. Doherty was signed late on in what looks now like an act of desperation but wasn''t the divisive figure he was by the time of his departure.

Are our new signings this time around that much better? Do we just trust Paul Lambert more that we ever did Nigel Worthington? Is that justified? I for one can''t wait for the season to start so we can stop speculating and actully see what this team is capable of.
[/quote]

 

---

 

Agreed about hindsight, Shack, but it is more than that. For whatever reason the OP left out two talented acquisitions from last time. The true comparison with the six we have signed so far is with Helveg and Jonson (who had more than 150 caps between them) and Doherty, Charlton, Safri and Bentley. Not forgetting that we had already sigificantly strengthened the squad with Huckerby, Svensson and Mackenzie in order to get promotion. In effect a whole new outfield.

 

But the real point is that you cannot seriously compare then and now without taking into account the vastly greater amount of money we are guaranteed just for one season in the PL.

 

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Worthington/Lambert

 

Two completely different managers with opposing approaches to the game. Worthington was defensive, Lambert is more attacking.

 

The former approached the Premiership with, IMO, a weakish forward line, as was proven by the upturn when Ashton was added to it. Doherty up front at Premier level? The mind boggles. PL''s front-line is far more potent, I would hope. I know which I prefer.

 

Helveg was a good player, mis-used a bit. Simon Charlton was decent as well, but as a replacement for Malky? No way. Charlton was a more than decent defensive utility player.

 

Jonson never settled.

 

From what I remember, Worthy got little blame for our instant Premiership demise at the time. Expectations were low. Miistakes were noted, however, yet most vitriole was aimed at the Board''s lack of ambition. Somebody enlighten me if I am incorrect about this. I see few games live so do not benefit from the Carrow Road murmurings. 

 

The manager''s critics gathered after the Fulham disgrace and the momentum was intensified by our less than conspicious return to the Championship. Most expected us to be in the promotion mix and the subsequent mid-table performances led to a very intensive "Worthy out" campaign.

 

We cannot be too critical of Nigel, however. He was a decent manager who brought some welcome success to the Club. I know who I would prefer though. The fact that Worthington''s side missed out on survival by one point (?) is encouraging as I feel the Premiership is a bit weaker at the bottom end at the moment, with a lot of average side down there,  and I consider Paul Lambert''s squad stronger and more balanced. For these reasons, I am optimistic about survival.  

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Having just read Purple Canary''s useful contribution, I''m wrong to call Worthy''s forward line weak. Huckerby and Svensson were class and he could add Bentley and Safri to the mix. Clearly, my memory is not what it was.

 

Worthy went into the Prem. with a more than decent outfit. They still failed. It is not going to be easy.

 

I still have more faith in our current squad.   

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

Having just read Purple Canary''s useful contribution, I''m wrong to call Worthy''s forward line weak. Huckerby and Svensson were class and he could add Bentley and Safri to the mix. Clearly, my memory is not what it was.

 

Worthy went into the Prem. with a more than decent outfit. They still failed. It is not going to be easy.

 

I still have more faith in our current squad.   

[/quote]

 

Broadstairs, Jonson''s best position also was either as a striker playing alongside a target man (such as Kennet Andersson for Sweden) or as a third (wing-) striker in a 4-3-3. What he was not best suited to was the role of workhorse right-sided midfielder into which Worthington tried to shoehorn him.

 

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[quote user="TheJarrold"]We really need to be careful with the keeper choice if it isn''t Forster....remember the last numpty we had in the 7-1 fiasco![/quote]

 

I doubt Paul Lambert has forgotten the importance of a well-drilled competent keeper!

 

That memorable day against Colchester was surely a harsh ''lesson learned'' for everyone; can''t imagine PL willingly putting himself in the same position Bryan Gunn did...

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When was the last time you can remember Norwich buying in so many 1.5 million pound + players, who are all rated in their respected teams as the key players, who will have something to prove?

Who had heard of Simon Charlton or Gary Doherty at the time, would they have really been our choice signings? Helveg was at the end of his career and just did a job, didn’t really look up for the fight. Svensson and Mackenzie were our only two real front men going into that season and even then we turned to the mighty ginger Pele at the front. But the most significant difference between the squads then and now I think is the fight to prove themselves. Our last squad just wilted at Fulham, will this squad do the same? No we have too many fighters & leaders, Holt, Ward, Barnett, Crofts, Fox to name a few.

In my mind the last time up in the premiership, it was the most fragmented build up and frustrating first 6 months to the campaign due to poor investment, journeymen pro’s and playing players out of position to cover the short falls in our squad, not to mention the boards intention of following the Charlton model and protecting the football club (look where that nearly landed us).

The pundits and bookies are writing us off and there is a strong chance we will not survive. But I feel this build up, by not releasing key players going into the premiership, keeping the core of the squad together and buying in the cream of lower league players, should keep the positive harmony within the squad and get the best out of the teams on the pitch.

Confident, you bet you, it will be hard, it will be frustrating and it will be successful, with so many options to fall back on.

I hope that Lambert can move on the players who might disrupt the harmony, we don’t know who they are but we can have a fair guess from previous press reports.

Just look at our friends down the road, Clegg called selling Whickam “a historic day for the club” boy does that not sound like something Doncaster would have said? And when you look how excited they are getting by trying to sign over the hill, high earning players, you have to wonder just how deluded our poor relations really are. Ipswich today has a likeness to Norwich three seasons ago and relegation. In my view there are 14 teams in the championship with a genuine chance of top 6, Ipswich have more chance of bottom 6.

Giddy times indeed for the mighty Canaries, Premiership football and a set up that all championship cubs look at with envy, not bad for a small club just north of Ipswich ay Mr Clegg!

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[quote user="BroadstairsR"]

Worthington was defensive.

[/quote]

 

I don''t want to re-open old wounds here but I''m not sure that statement is correct. Can you really call a manager who played Darren Huckerby on the left hand side of midfield defensive? A manager who only ever picked one defensive midfielder in Gary Holt and who packed the rest of his midfield with players who were, or at least should have been, a goalscoring threat such as Francis, Bentley and Jonson? He wasn''t as tactically astute as Paul Lambert and he and his team often panicked and then dropped to deep when they were a goal up late on in the game. I think it is that which leads to the belief that his team was overly negative.

 

Purple Canary has already mentioned the reason Jonson failed to settle and the way he used (or didn''t use) Safri and Helveg in that season certainly didn''t help us. Paul Lambert seems to have a clearer idea upon which players he wants and how they will fit into a system which is evidenced by the way he gets the players he wants early in pre-season. You can''t imagine that he will be caught out by one of his signings lacking the pace to cope in the Premier League as Helveg was and then lacking other options to compensate for that.

 

I think we are more organised than last time and we will have a clearer game plan for how to stay in this league. I think Paul Lambert will go on to be recognised as one of our greatest ever managers should he stay for a few more years. I genuinely think we will stay up comfortably. But I''m not sure we should go back and denigrate the achievements of Worthy''s team just to build this one up further. We''ve yet to kick a ball yet and only time will tell whether the positivity we are all feeling at the moment is justified or misguided.

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"When was the last time you can remember Norwich buying in so many 1.5

million pound + players, who are all rated in their respected teams as

the key players, who will have something to prove?

"No manager has ever had Lamberts budget available to them.  Having said that, it''s about time.  Really looking forward to next season.

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To be fair to Nigel Worthington, I suggest you read the interview he did with Hucks

http://www.dh6.co.uk/s6a1n77p1/Nigel-Worthington.html

If they''d bought Ashton in the summer as he''d asked, and given him a proper pre-season, we''d have easily stopped up that year. The board didn''t want to spend the money.

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[quote user="Icecream Snow"]To be fair to Nigel Worthington, I suggest you read the interview he did with Hucks http://www.dh6.co.uk/s6a1n77p1/Nigel-Worthington.html If they''d bought Ashton in the summer as he''d asked, and given him a proper pre-season, we''d have easily stopped up that year. The board didn''t want to spend the money.[/quote]

 

---

 

Ah, yes. That self-serving interview in which Worthington takes credit for the successes (getting Huckerby was all down to him and nothing to do with the board, or Carl Moore, apparently)  while the failures were everybody''s fault apart from his.

 

But even Worthington doesn''t say the board told him it didn''t want to spend the money. According to him the board said it couldn''t afford to spend the money, which is not the same at all. There is no evidence at all the money was available to be spent that summer. And since Worthington also says in that interview the example we should have followed was that of Hull - ie splashing out loads of money we didn''t have and ruined ourselves - I much more trust the board''s view of what we could and could not have afforded.

 

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[quote user="ryan1992"]To be fair, When we signed Helveg, I was bl00dy impressed! At one time he was one of, if not the, best full backs in world football, and I believe won player of the year at least once for both Milan clubs. He obviously disappointed here, but this proves to me atleast, that you should never speculate how good a player will be until they have appeared in the green and yellow for a few games first! Pilkington, Bennett, Vaughan, Morison and RDL do definately seem very shrewd/clever signings however, which could turn out to be some of the best signings of our recent seasons [/quote]

totally agree, no one can be sure how a new signing will turn out.  few examples would be Torres, Owen, and on a lesser extent Brown for us (who then did well, for a while, for Preston!)

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[quote user="ryan1992"]To be fair, When we signed Helveg, I was bl00dy impressed! At one time he was one of, if not the, best full backs in world football, and I believe won player of the year at least once for both Milan clubs.  [/quote]

Helveg was a good player in his prime but never great.

 

2 or 3 good years at Milan but never really established himself at Inter.

 

He wouldn''t have been held in the same regard as the likes of Gary Neville, Cafu or Robert Carlos (just an example of some well-known fullbacks who were in their prime a few years back).

 

 

 

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Our fowards back then were fairly good

Svensson, Huckerby, Mckenzie and later Ashton

 

I feel that Worthy made mistakes with some of his signings, Helveg in his 30''s with no english game experience was always going to be a risk, and jonson just never performed.

 

I think Lambo is sticking to players who know the English game thinking this is the ideal tatic to keep us in the prem, and of course no language barriers. Time will tell but i am positive

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