Gary Doherty

[gissing canary 2]

I am saying this not to vilify the player, as I always

support every player (on the pitch) while they are here, and I will admit I have only gone to

about 5 games this season.

BUT, I can’t help thinking we should not bother to renew his

contract.  The times I have seen him

(including the embarrassing Burnley game); he has never

looked good enough to get us promoted.

In my opinion:

1)      He

can’t pass, constant long balls, and poor distribution.

2)      Never

looks happy with ball at feet.

3)      The

grappling of all opposition players giving away costly free kicks.

4)      His

wages – not his fault, but he must be on a decent amount?  I can’t help think it could go somewhere

useful?

5)      Appearance

– he always looks shaky,

the games I have seen and the chat on here seems to be he has never looked

assured in now 3 years?

My thinking is he you need winners, and I don’t know if he

can get us promoted?  Also for the young players coming through, he hardly offers

a clear head?

[InLambertWeTrust! 0]

I agree with you, the number of times we have given away silly goals from doherty ''''hoofing'''' the ball straight back to the oppo is quite frankly unacceptable considering we should be challenging for promo.

[Alex Harvey-Jones 0]

I don''t understand why everyone dislikes Doherty so much. Yes he can be frustrating and yes he gives away free kicks but I think he''s a pretty good defender and certainly worth a place in the squad if not in the starting 11!

[nutty nigel 7,535]

[quote user="gissing canary"]

I am saying this not to vilify the player, as I always support every player (on the pitch) while they are here, and I will admit I have only gone to about 5 games this season.

BUT, I can’t help thinking we should not bother to renew his contract.  The times I have seen him (including the embarrassing Burnley game); he has never looked good enough to get us promoted.

In my opinion:

<!--[if !supportLists]-->1)      <!--[endif]-->He can’t pass, constant long balls, and poor distribution.

2)      <!--[endif]-->Never looks happy with ball at feet.

<!--[if !supportLists]-->3)      <!--[endif]-->The grappling of all opposition players giving away costly free kicks.

<!--[if !supportLists]-->4)      <!--[endif]-->His wages – not his fault, but he must be on a decent amount?  I can’t help think it could go somewhere useful?

<!--[if !supportLists]-->5)      <!--[endif]-->Appearance – he always looks shaky, the games I have seen and the chat on here seems to be he has never looked assured in now 3 years?

My thinking is he you need winners, and I don’t know if he can get us promoted?  Also for the young players coming through, he hardly offers a clear head?

[/quote]

If we can get better than  The Doc then I am quite happy for him to be replaced as I would be any other player. Having said that where do you get this information beacause in my opinion :-

1. His passing is ok and better than Shackells.

2. He is OK with the ball at his feet but I do agree that he panics a bit under pressure.

3.He gives away less free kicks than others and certainly less costly ones. (This isn''t opinion, it''s fact).

4. I agree he probably is on high wages. Whether the mnoney could be better spent is debateable. We need cover in that position anyway so if we get rid of The Doc we will need two more players.

5. I agree, his body language is not inspiring and I wish he had some of Dublins leadership qualities.

All things considered I think Doherty and Shackell are good enough for this division.

 

 

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

IIRC Gary Doherty was signed as a ''utility'' player.

For me Doherty showed good promise at Luton and also at Tottenham.  For some reason, he has, especially in the last year been, I can''t use any other words ''on the whole very poor''.

He wasn''t that bad when we first signed him.  He has had weight problems, and looks very nervous and like you say uncomfortable, almost frightened on the ball.  He is currently lacking in any confidence and woefully out of form.

He is no spring chicken any more either.

I don''t know why it has all gone wrong for Doherty at Norwich?  I don''t believe he is quite as poor as we are currently seeing.

What sums it up for me is that Doherty was signed as a ''utility'' player and for me is a utility player.  His ability isn''t much better than what we are currently seeing.  He isn''t good enough for us in central defence, playing in a role just in front of the back four or playing in central midfiled, and on a very rare occassion he may be a slightly useful option thrown on up front for the last 10 minutes of game. 

Basically he isn''t good enough for any position and you would not keep him, just for the posibilty that once every couple of months he may be played up front for a few minutes.

I don''t think Gary has a true position, where you can say, yes he is definitely a defender, or yes he is definitely a central midfielder.  I don''t even know that if you asked Gary himself he would say yes I am a ......, he may just say I prefer playing in ...... .

Doherty really has to go in the summer, I have no bad feelings towards him, as I do with the ''free ride'' players.  He must be prepared to take a drastic cut in salary when he moves on and also be prepared to drop down a division.  I think he would go to a league one side.  But I feel his ability, on current form, lies somewhere between midway in league two and midway in league one.

[Alex Harvey-Jones 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

If we can get better than  The Doc then I am quite happy for him to be replaced as I would be any other player.

[/quote] I would agree that we could replace him in the starting 11 with a superior player but he is quite adequate backup and worth a place in the squad and on the bench. You''re unlikely to be able to find a better defender to be a reserve!

[lucky green trainers 0]

nothing personal about the doc, but does he have the defensive nouse and presence to get us promoted?  does he compare to bruce/watson or flemming/malky???sadly, no imo.  he''s given his best, slimmed down after a portly stout, and did well enough last season, but we still leaked goals.  let him go in the close season.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Alex Harvey-Jones"]I don''t understand why everyone dislikes Doherty so much. Yes he can be frustrating and yes he gives away free kicks but I think he''s a pretty good defender and certainly worth a place in the squad if not in the starting 11![/quote]

Because he is c**p... one of the worst centre backs to pull on a City shirt in the last 25 years!!!

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

There is obviously something wrong in our teams setup as our appalling league positions and defensive record proves these last two seasons.

The Doc would probably look a better player alongside somebody else organising the defense (how a player like this is a vice captain is beyond me - but we know which idiot decided that).  He and shackell have a habit of capitulating (let me add I feel shackell is equally to blame as the Doc in these cases).

The defense is a serious problem at the moment, we need a good keeper for next season, we need to sort out the right back slot as Grant obviously doesnt rate Colin, and Hughes is certainly not good enough first choice, and we need a leader in the centre.  Left Back seems well covered at the moment, with the able Drury and L:appin or the versatuile one able to cover.

I feeel Dohertys inflated salary may be a deciding factor, we could easily get a player equal in ability to him on far less of a wage.  It all depends how much he is on and whether we could replace him with the wages saved.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

There is obviously something wrong in our teams setup as our appalling league positions and defensive record proves these last two seasons.

The Doc would probably look a better player alongside somebody else organising the defense (how a player like this is a vice captain is beyond me - but we know which idiot decided that).  He and shackell have a habit of capitulating (let me add I feel shackell is equally to blame as the Doc in these cases).

The defense is a serious problem at the moment, we need a good keeper for next season, we need to sort out the right back slot as Grant obviously doesnt rate Colin, and Hughes is certainly not good enough first choice, and we need a leader in the centre.  Left Back seems well covered at the moment, with the able Drury and L:appin or the versatuile one able to cover.

I feeel Dohertys inflated salary may be a deciding factor, we could easily get a player equal in ability to him on far less of a wage.  It all depends how much he is on and whether we could replace him with the wages saved.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="gissing canary"]

I am saying this not to vilify the player, as I always support every player (on the pitch) while they are here, and I will admit I have only gone to about 5 games this season.

BUT, I can’t help thinking we should not bother to renew his contract.  The times I have seen him (including the embarrassing Burnley game); he has never looked good enough to get us promoted.

In my opinion:

<!--[if !supportLists]-->1)      <!--[endif]-->He can’t pass, constant long balls, and poor distribution.

2)      <!--[endif]-->Never looks happy with ball at feet.

<!--[if !supportLists]-->3)      <!--[endif]-->The grappling of all opposition players giving away costly free kicks.

<!--[if !supportLists]-->4)      <!--[endif]-->His wages – not his fault, but he must be on a decent amount?  I can’t help think it could go somewhere useful?

<!--[if !supportLists]-->5)      <!--[endif]-->Appearance – he always looks shaky, the games I have seen and the chat on here seems to be he has never looked assured in now 3 years?

My thinking is he you need winners, and I don’t know if he can get us promoted?  Also for the young players coming through, he hardly offers a clear head?

[/quote]

If we can get better than  The Doc then I am quite happy for him to be replaced as I would be any other player. Having said that where do you get this information beacause in my opinion :-

1. His passing is ok and better than Shackells.

2. He is OK with the ball at his feet but I do agree that he panics a bit under pressure.

3.He gives away less free kicks than others and certainly less costly ones. (This isn''t opinion, it''s fact).

4. I agree he probably is on high wages. Whether the mnoney could be better spent is debateable. We need cover in that position anyway so if we get rid of The Doc we will need two more players.

5. I agree, his body language is not inspiring and I wish he had some of Dublins leadership qualities.

All things considered I think Doherty and Shackell are good enough for this division.

 

 

[/quote]

mmm for keeping you in it or getting you promoted out of it Nutty?

Because if you are referring to the latter then all of the stats over the last two seasons would suggest otherwise.

[InLambertWeTrust! 0]

Nutty Nigel, are you telling me that Doherty never ever gives away free kicks for ''hugging'' (for want of a better word) the oppo players?

[The Voice of the Thorpe Area 0]

Neil Adams made a very good point about the Doc a few weeks back- he said that he is solid for 80 minutes, but he will have that little period in the match where he looks shaky, and may give away a chance, free-kick, etc. This is why he is a championship player, not a premiership player.

I''m not a big fan of the Doc''s, never have been- but but to be honest, 9/10 centre-backs in this division are in the same situation as Doc, and unless the board is willing to spend 2 million for a better player, then you''d be hard-pushed to find a worthwhile replacement.

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="gissing canary"]

I am saying this not to vilify the player, as I always support every player (on the pitch) while they are here, and I will admit I have only gone to about 5 games this season.

BUT, I can’t help thinking we should not bother to renew his contract.  The times I have seen him (including the embarrassing Burnley game); he has never looked good enough to get us promoted.

In my opinion:

<!--[if !supportLists]-->1)      <!--[endif]-->He can’t pass, constant long balls, and poor distribution.

2)      <!--[endif]-->Never looks happy with ball at feet.

<!--[if !supportLists]-->3)      <!--[endif]-->The grappling of all opposition players giving away costly free kicks.

<!--[if !supportLists]-->4)      <!--[endif]-->His wages – not his fault, but he must be on a decent amount?  I can’t help think it could go somewhere useful?

<!--[if !supportLists]-->5)      <!--[endif]-->Appearance – he always looks shaky, the games I have seen and the chat on here seems to be he has never looked assured in now 3 years?

 

[/quote]

not being funny.. but u could be describing "cult Hero" Malky Mackay there... its amazing what scoring the odd goal can do for u

jas :)

[GJP 79]

I think most people are too harsh on Doherty. He''s done no worse than Shackell but for some reason it seems Doherty can''t do anything right and Shackell can do nothing wrong.

Fair enough I think Shacks has put in some better displays lately but before then he hasn''t looked great at all.

I thought the Doc started the season quite well but then things went wrong for City and then when Grant came in he seemed to lose all the confidence he had.

But he''s played over 50 games (I think) for Spurs and he''s played for his country about 30 times and he wouldn''t have done that if he was as useless as some people make him out to be.

Having said all that...I''m still not convinced that Doherty and Shackell are really strong enough to take City on. We need at least 1 stronger centreback.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

 we need to sort out the right back slot as Grant obviously doesnt rate Colin, and Hughes is certainly not good enough first choice, and we need a leader in the centre.

[/quote]

I didn''t go to the game at Barnsley so I don''t know what he played like but when I''ve seen him play before Bobby Hassell looks like a good lad for them.

[nutty nigel 7,535]

[quote user="Canary Lad"]Nutty Nigel, are you telling me that Doherty never ever gives away free kicks for ''hugging'' (for want of a better word) the oppo players?[/quote]

No, every defender gives away free kicks!

I''m saying  he gives away less than other players, I''m saying he has only given away one free kick that cost a goal all season and that was a poor decision from the ref. The opposite is commonly quoted on here even though the facts show different.

I have often wondered why this is but now I think I know. The original poster mentions the Burnley game, this was over 5 months ago. The Doc had a poor game and was sent off. Why is it significant? Why not use more recent games, The Doc has been playing regularly enough. But I just remembered the Burnley game was on TV! People are no less a supporter for being unable to go to games but we haven''t been on TV enough this season for the armchair brigade to make a proper judgement.

 

 

[Mark .Y. 352]

The facts say that our central defence is really not good enough for this division. Even allowing for some poor midfield/goalkeeping displays a decent centre-back partnership would be able to keep clean sheets from time to time. We look totally unable to.

Mark .Y.

 

[gissing canary 2]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Canary Lad"]Nutty Nigel, are you telling me that Doherty never ever gives away free kicks for ''hugging'' (for want of a better word) the oppo players?[/quote]

No, every defender gives away free kicks!

I''m saying  he gives away less than other players, I''m saying he has only given away one free kick that cost a goal all season and that was a poor decision from the ref. The opposite is commonly quoted on here even though the facts show different.

I have often wondered why this is but now I think I know. The original poster mentions the Burnley game, this was over 5 months ago. The Doc had a poor game and was sent off. Why is it significant? Why not use more recent games, The Doc has been playing regularly enough. But I just remembered the Burnley game was on TV! People are no less a supporter for being unable to go to games but we haven''t been on TV enough this season for the armchair brigade to make a proper judgement.

 

 

[/quote]

 

The significance about the burnley game was that it was one of the games i have been to this season, because i can only judge on what I have seen, and what others say.  and in my opinion most people on here say he does this regularly.  And I am not part of "the armchair" brigade, as you put it, I just havent been able to get to the number of games i would have liked.

I use this board to find out what is going wrong, and the match ratings always appear to show doc as a shaky weaker (i dont THE weak link, as he isnt as bad as some of the others) link.

[nutty nigel 7,535]

[quote user="gissing canary"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Canary Lad"]Nutty Nigel, are you telling me that Doherty never ever gives away free kicks for ''hugging'' (for want of a better word) the oppo players?[/quote]

No, every defender gives away free kicks!

I''m saying  he gives away less than other players, I''m saying he has only given away one free kick that cost a goal all season and that was a poor decision from the ref. The opposite is commonly quoted on here even though the facts show different.

I have often wondered why this is but now I think I know. The original poster mentions the Burnley game, this was over 5 months ago. The Doc had a poor game and was sent off. Why is it significant? Why not use more recent games, The Doc has been playing regularly enough. But I just remembered the Burnley game was on TV! People are no less a supporter for being unable to go to games but we haven''t been on TV enough this season for the armchair brigade to make a proper judgement.

 

 

[/quote]

 

The significance about the burnley game was that it was one of the games i have been to this season, because i can only judge on what I have seen, and what others say.  and in my opinion most people on here say he does this regularly.  And I am not part of "the armchair" brigade, as you put it, I just havent been able to get to the number of games i would have liked.

I use this board to find out what is going wrong, and the match ratings always appear to show doc as a shaky weaker (i dont THE weak link, as he isnt as bad as some of the others) link.

[/quote]

OK Gissing Canary, I stand corrected so apologies mate.

But as the official Football League stats will back up my opinion that The Doc gives away less free kicks than others and that those he has haven''t been costly I can only assume he bribes the ref.

In my opinion Doherty is an adequate centreback for this league, I do think he is good enough to be part of a team to get us promoted. I don''t think he is anywhere near the best centreback we ever had, and I would be quite happy to see him replaced if we could get better. I also think to get better would cost more money than we can realistically afford unless we were to be very lucky. I feel exactly the same way about Shackell.

This is a great place for City Fans to exchange views on players and performances. We are all right sometimes and probably all wrong a lot more often. Thats why I''m glad Peter Grant doesn''t pick the team on the match ratings found on this site. In my opinion, and I posted it on here often, the week link in our defence was the goalkeeper but because he made a couple of saves each game he has never had the same criticism on here as other players.

If we manage to get Doherty, Hughes and Etuhu out of this club who will people turn to next I wonder.

 

 

[ZLF 274]

Our goals against column is a problem but the singling out of Doc is simply not supported but anything other than fans thinking he is ungainly.  

Nutty is right that the stats show he conceeds fewer free kicks than his partners ad fewer goals from those free kicks and his passing is far better than shax.   The one skill I would like Doc to enhance is leadership, as that is what dion brings,  but without actually stemming the flow of goals conceeded. 

I have done a piece before that the most effective partnership for the club, in order was,  Doc & Dion,  Doc & Shax,  Dion & shax when looking at goals per game conceeded and pointed per game won when played as centre backs.

Looking at the players individually the stats also support that Doc is marginally better than the alternatives at the club - and has been even when we were in the prem.

                  Started            Goals per game conceeded         Points per game won

Doc              29                              1.3                                          1.4

Dion             12                              1.3                                          1.2

Shax             35                              1.4                                          1.3

This is not a support Doc post, he does have his faults & they need improving upon.  However on the key measures he is only worse in our minds,  not on the pitch.

Blame them all equally.

Losing Doc means we need to sign two new defenders rather than one,  and with a better shaped midfield and an organising keeper I am confident that a shax/doc combo can be good enough for a promotion push.

 

[Evil Monkey 52]

Agreed that Doc does come in for some unfair criticism, but then some of it is very fair indeed - concentration and organisation seem to me to be the problems that have blighted him for years, though I admit that I''ve not seen him much this season and his Burnley rugby tackle was one of those games (on telly)...I''ve always felt that our midfield is the big problem area when it comes to defending - a good midfield can stop the ball getting to the defenders in the first place, and when you consider some time ago that our "preferred" partnership was Hughes and Robinson, the pressure on the defence was incredible and even Chelsea''s finest would have struggled!A better midfield set-up is hopefully starting to stem the flow towards our defence... now if we can just get Grant to put Colin back in at RB... [:|]

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Losing Doc means we need to sign two new defenders rather than one,  and with a better shaped midfield and an organising keeper I am confident that a shax/doc combo can be good enough for a promotion push.

[/quote]

I was thinking this earlier, A vocal and commanding goalie can be just as effective as a vocal centre half.  Lee Camp anyone? [:O]

[ZLF 274]

Another feature that doesnt help is the constantly changing personnel - I think the list below is staggering - and is before you throw in 5 different keepers,  no wonder people arent sure at the back. 

Looking at the middle pair only we have had 5combinations so far his season. 

The longest run of games unchanged is 5 from Southend at home, and if doc and shax start tonight it will only be the 5th time 3 or more consecutive games have been started with the same central defensive pair.

Of the 41 games there has been a change to the central partnership on no fewer than 19 occasions - nearly every other game.

And thats before we get to the shoddy midfield we have had protecting them all season...

[sonyc 5,519]

After all this what price Doc to score tonight? I cannot recall last time he did - header from a corner?

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

Our goals against column is a problem but the singling out of Doc is simply not supported but anything other than fans thinking he is ungainly.  

Nutty is right that the stats show he conceeds fewer free kicks than his partners ad fewer goals from those free kicks and his passing is far better than shax.   The one skill I would like Doc to enhance is leadership, as that is what dion brings,  but without actually stemming the flow of goals conceeded. 

I have done a piece before that the most effective partnership for the club, in order was,  Doc & Dion,  Doc & Shax,  Dion & shax when looking at goals per game conceeded and pointed per game won when played as centre backs.

Looking at the players individually the stats also support that Doc is marginally better than the alternatives at the club - and has been even when we were in the prem.

                  Started            Goals per game conceeded         Points per game won

Doc              29                              1.3                                          1.4

Dion             12                              1.3                                          1.2

Shax             35                              1.4                                          1.3

This is not a support Doc post, he does have his faults & they need improving upon.  However on the key measures he is only worse in our minds,  not on the pitch.

Blame them all equally.

Losing Doc means we need to sign two new defenders rather than one,  and with a better shaped midfield and an organising keeper I am confident that a shax/doc combo can be good enough for a promotion push.

 

[/quote]sorry zip, imo we need a new central defender pairing, new right back, and goalie.   we need a bruce/watson partnership to gain promotion - shacks and doc don''t cut the mustard for me.