Youth Players: We Still do and always have kept too many

[Huddy 0]

Over the last few years we have had players get on the fringe of the first team, who are then released and find there way into local football. It must be obvious to anyone in the game that these arent good enough yet we keep them untill they are nearly 20 and only then release them. It sees we have to many youngsters who are around the age of 18, when we should be playing younger ones at under 18 earlier to help them maximise their potential.

Surely once players get to 17 you can tell if they''ve got nay hope at all, most of the youngsters get kept to 19 and then are released and are lucky if they even become semi-pro.

These are a few examples of what i mean

Adrian Coote - From Norwich - to colchester - to wroxham to Acle on a sunday?

Greg Crane - Was released by Nrwich when 19, Now playing for kings Lynn Reserves

Lewis Blois - Given Pro contract, released when 20, played locally now back up to Kings Lynn

Damian Batt - Highly rated, released at 19, now playing for ST Albans.

Aaaron Osbourne - Was at NCFC till 19, now playing for the might of Cromer FC

We now have FISK and Cave-Brown at Kings Lynn, and neither can shine for them, Lynn havent scored and havent picked up a point in the 2 games they''ve played. Cave-brown has always looked alrigh, fisk has always looked awful. Cave-brown when fit might be ok.

Matt Halliday  - Is currently a Pro, dis a CB that didnt even get mentioned when there was doubt over Doherty, shackall, dublin and fleming. I can guarentee in 18 months he will be playing non league football at best, probably for dereham.

Adam Gusterson - Releasd last summer aged 18, alreadydown to Dereham. Dereham also have Nicky howell, and Olly willis who were both left till 19 before being released.

How many players who dont become first team members actually stay at pro level? a handfull

Danny Crow (peterboro''), Paul Hayes (Scunthorpe, now Barnsley), Dean sinclair (barnet). There aren''t may more.

If we were a league 2 club you would expect cast offs to be struggling to find a decent non league side but when we are a championship club these 19 year olds should be able to play good semi-pro football if not alot higher. It isnt their fault, its the clubs for keeping too many youngsters for far too long when most should be released at 17 when it it clear they dont have it.

 

 

 

[Cluck 0]

A good thought provoking post Matt. Does make you wonder doesn''t it?

[alex_ncfc 666]

[quote user="Cluck"]A good thought provoking post Matt. Does make you wonder doesn''t it?[/quote]

It especially makes you wonder what will become of the current cling-ons in the senior team, Ryan Jarvis and Ian Henderson. It''s 5 seasons in the summer since both were introduced. 5 seasons in football is a hell of a long time, as I''m sure you all know, and have either of them progressed? I wonder where they will end up...

[apprentice 0]

Excellent post Matt totally agree with most points except the Cave Brown situation.  I really do feel he has been sent to Kings Lynn for fitness I believe he will be a decent player (hence 1 months loan) He cannot get match fit playing for Norwich Reserves.  What you must understand is to keep Academy status Norwich City have to sign so many players every year, this means they have to stay till they are 18 ie Adam Gusterson and Lee Howlett last year, Nicky Howell, Ollie Willis, , Adam Smith the previous year.  By the way Adam Smith has moved from Kings Lynn to Peterborough so there can be hope)  But I will say that I will never know why Fisk & Halliday were given professional contracts I can only pressume it was due to public pressure on Worthy!!! 

[apprentice 0]

Players have to be kept till 18 as the current scholarship is 2 years. used to be a 3 years scholarship so they were 19 when released.  Hope that clears that point up.  I am sure the boys do know after 6 months of their scholarship how things are going, but the contracts are put in place for both parties. 

[silver fox 0]

The whole issue of youth players is a nigtmare at Norwich and it is criminal that hardly any youngsters who get given contracts make it into the first team. The only real exception in the past few years has been Shackell, and look how long it took him to get into the first team.

 I have been impressed on the rare occasions that I have watched Rossi Jarvis, Spillane and Cave-Brown, and feel that they couldn''t do any worse than some of the current first team squad.  Peter Grant seems to have followed the example set by Worthy of not actually giving these youngsters a chance to prove themselves.  Worthy only played Henderson and Grant seems to favour Eagle.

Ryan Jarvis in my opinion has been badly mishandled, and instead of being an established player, is now struggling to even make the bench.

This club is crying out for a manager who is bold enough to give these youngsters a run of games. Certain experienced pros get picked week in and week out, and don''t produce the goods, but sadly you can bet your life savings Grant will have them pencilled in for the next match.  At the end of the day why have an academy if you aren''t going to play the players it produces.

 

[Regime Change 0]

Imo it also highlights how poor coaching has been at youth and academy level.

[Canary02 0]

Totally agree with Silver Fox and Sherlock. The coaching needs to be investigated thoroughly. Too few decent youngsters coming through, poor coaching of the first team players. A Little Norwich mentality when it comes to keeping friends in jobs they are not doing well.

When Mourinho came to Chelsea, the first thing he did was to head-hunt the likes of Frank Arnesen and other top coaches from all over Europe to be part of his set-up because he recognised the importance of developing the next generation. At City we go for continuity every time, because person X has been here for a while and everybody likes him, and he knows all the boys etc. If anybody questions it, he gets sent on an FA course so he can have an extra badge to his name.

As much as we need hungry, ambitious players, we need hungry, ambitious coaches. The last one we had? Adrian Boothroyd, who left the club because he couldn''t get the Academy Managers Job because Sammy Morgan wasn''t to be shifted (because everybody liked old Sammy). A strong wind of change is needed at Colney.

[Mello Yello 2,306]

The whole football coaching, the youth set-up and the scouting system for starters - need re-assessing and addressing at NCFC. Wolves grabbed young Keighly from non-league Grays on loan - and are probably signing him......he is definitely one for the future.......Why aren''t our ''scouts'' spotting talent like him? Maybe train their guide dogs to bark when they see a ''whizzkid?'' 

Victorian archaic NCFC club motto: "Youth Players, should be seen and not played."

First and foremost, we are a football club (allegedly, a la carte and al-fresco FC). We have an excellent training facility at Colney......the envy of many Premiership clubs. We also have a £750,000 fantastic and pristine playing surface - that looks the same as it did in September (unlike the Portman Peat Bog). Our quality stadium is well above average for Championship football and is (at this moment in time) enjoying 24,000+ attendances.

All these luvverly positives but, why have we such a poor Youth set-up? Yeah, ok, we can only recruit ''Yoof'' if they reside inside the outer ring-road, or live on a partly submerged houseboat on the Wensum, and are able to therefore, commute on their in-line roller blades to the training facility within 45 minutes, whatever!?

We are always threatened with the bailiffs bangin'' on the boardroom door at NCFC. Youth, should be our future policy, we can nurture young talent (with the right people) and it is a damn sight cheaper than signing a nomadic jobbin'' journeyman - or an amblin'' apathetic loanee. Although, maybe our prudent hierarchy, prioritise other more important projects ahead of football, and because they don''t receive the required financial returns, on developing the young talented spotty scrawny future professional prospects.[^o)]

"ON THE CRAWL CITY."  ;~(

[Saint Canary 0]

So if a player is not good enough for first team football at 17, 18 years old they should be released??  This is slightly hypocritical seeing as most of this forum last season complained about youngsters being released too soon without being given a chance.  Paul Scholes and David Beckham both made their Man U debuts at 20,  are you suggesting because they were small and lightweight at 17 they should have been released?  Probably not.

What the club needs to do is get better at loaning young players out.  Let them go to clubs like Northampton, Peterborough etc for free (ie not ask for them to pay the players wages) and let them get some games.  The reason why the careers of Jarvis and Henderson etc have been stunted is because they simply have either not been played or been played out of position.  What these players need is a full season of playing regularly, then it''s easier to decide whether they are worth keeping or not.  Loaning also helps avoid releasing the wrong players, something this and many other clubs have done too often before loans became more "popular".  Dion Dublin was released from City, Andy Cole from Arsenal and there are lots more.

These young players need to play, simple as that.  What they do not need is to play poor reserve team or youth team football for too long. 

 

 

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Saint Canary"]

So if a player is not good enough for first team football at 17, 18 years old they should be released??  This is slightly hypocritical seeing as most of this forum last season complained about youngsters being released too soon without being given a chance.  Paul Scholes and David Beckham both made their Man U debuts at 20,  are you suggesting because they were small and lightweight at 17 they should have been released?  Probably not.

What the club needs to do is get better at loaning young players out.  Let them go to clubs like Northampton, Peterborough etc for free (ie not ask for them to pay the players wages) and let them get some games.  The reason why the careers of Jarvis and Henderson etc have been stunted is because they simply have either not been played or been played out of position.  What these players need is a full season of playing regularly, then it''s easier to decide whether they are worth keeping or not.  Loaning also helps avoid releasing the wrong players, something this and many other clubs have done too often before loans became more "popular".  Dion Dublin was released from City, Andy Cole from Arsenal and there are lots more.

These young players need to play, simple as that.  What they do not need is to play poor reserve team or youth team football for too long. 

 

 

[/quote]

glad u posted that about the Man utd kids Saint...

 the latest 4-4-2 magazine mentions the UTD youth FA cup winning side of the 90''s, widely regarded as the best youth side ever in this country.

A side that had Gary and Phil Neville, David Beckham, Paul Scholes and Nicky Butt (as well as Robbie Savage) we all know what happned to those 6 players.... but the whole squad  was tipped to be stars at the higest level with other clubs....

 none of them were... Ben Thornally got a season or 2 at huddersfield and played at Carrow Road for them in the late 90''s before dropping into non league footy. and Chris Casper dropped down the divisions and is now manager of Bury...  the remainder of the sqaud either ply their trade in the Conference (or even amateur) or have dropped out of the game completely...holding down regular jobs.

 this, apparently, isnt uncommon, I remember Reading an interview a few years ago with Zinedine Zidane (not sure where... could of bene in world football), he said that 98% of youth footballers wont ever make it... and of that 98% most will never play a professional game, instead turning out for amateur sides.... if u consider that nearly all professionals today have come through a youth side at some point then that means theres a hell of a lot out of the game.

 

i think the turnaround we have is about right... although it is worrying that we havent had more lads break through...

 Take a look at our current under 14 and under 15 sides and note down some of the names... im willing to bet only 2 or 3 of them will ever play professionally at some level.

jas :)

[Hucka Hucka Huckerby 0]

[quote user="alex_ncfc"]

[quote user="Cluck"]A good thought provoking post Matt. Does make you wonder doesn''t it?[/quote]

It especially makes you wonder what will become of the current cling-ons in the senior team, Ryan Jarvis and Ian Henderson. It''s 5 seasons in the summer since both were introduced. 5 seasons in football is a hell of a long time, as I''m sure you all know, and have either of them progressed? I wonder where they will end up...

[/quote]

5 seasons... Jesus, I wouldn''t mind a pro footballers sallary for 5 years & never play!!

[Huddy 0]

I''m not saying they should be picked at 17, i''m saying that it shouldnt take untill they are 20 to decide if they''ve got any talent. These players are going to the likes of dereham, not a decent non league side, surely you can tell these players are no where near good enough long before they are 20!

[The Walking Man 13]

fair enough, anyone who has ever watched a Norwich reserve match willsoon realise that most of our youth team isnt good enough. With the exceptions of Spillane, Bally Smart and Chris Martin there isnt much there worth worrying about. I was amazed when the likes of eagles and cave brown were given contracts because judging by what they played like in the ressies last year even dereham wouldnt want them.

[Smudger 0]

The worst thing is that we seem to let the best players go....  Danny Crow and Paul Hayes....

and hang on to all the dross like Ian Henderson!!!

How much longer we going to keep Ryan Jarvis if ain''t making the grade?  We got rid of Crow but he seemed to be higher in the pecking order at Carrow Road than Ryan during our Premiership season.

[Olano 100]

agree 100% with you silver fox.

Ryan Jarvis was a wery talented player,but ouer "safe" managers havent given the youth eny chans

[apprentice 0]

[quote user="Olano"]agree 100% with you silver fox. Ryan Jarvis was a wery talented player,but ouer "safe" managers havent given the youth eny chans[/quote]

Ryan was always a talented player but also always as lazy player

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

Ryan jarvis has had 5 league starts in his 5 years of being available for selection.  He used to get 2 minutes at the end of games a fair bit under the previous manager.

To be fair Granty gave him a better chance but he hasnt done much

He should be loaned - but we don''t loan players do we. Its not the NCFC way.

[Fat Barman 0]

Just a minor point Canary02 - Ady Boothroyd was the Academy boss, he left because the Board couldn''t guarantee him a fast-track into the first team set up, where he really wanted to prove himself. Worthy said, at the time, "it''s very disappointing that Norwich City can''t find a way to keep hold of the services of such a talented young coach". Shame no-one ''upstairs'' was listening.

[Fat Barman 0]

Wasn''t Ryan loaned out last season? Seem to remember he went to a league 1 side, but didn''t impress there either.The loan thing is weird, but at least Grant has loaned out Cave-Brown for fitness & Fisk for experience, even if only to Kings Lynn.

[alex_ncfc 666]

[quote user="Fat Barman"]Wasn''t Ryan loaned out last season? Seem to remember he went to a league 1 side, but didn''t impress there either.

The loan thing is weird, but at least Grant has loaned out Cave-Brown for fitness & Fisk for experience, even if only to Kings Lynn.
[/quote]

Good "pint" Fat Barman.Couldn''t resists [:P]

But yeah I also vaguely remember Ryan Jarvis being loaned out to Colchester or Cambridge or something? But then again, what does that tell us when none of us can remember who exactly he went on loan to?! And I also think he got returned to sender pretty sharpish, either that or he wasn''t impressing at all like you said. But says a lot when we can only vaguley remember!

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

He was loaned to Colchester during our Premiership Campaign started twice, 4 subs no goals.

At least as the barman says fisk and Cave brown have been sent to lynn...