Mr Bates v The Post Office

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

This has been mentioned elsewhere but deserves a thread of its own. The ITV drama left me angry and close to tears. 

Please watch and contact your MP to express your anger. Those affected are ordinary people like you and me who have had their lives ruined. 

This isn't a matter of left v right or Labour v Conservative. It's a matter of common decency. 

I knew it was bad but I didn't know it was this bad. If you do watch be prepared to be very angry. 

Available by catch up on ITVX

[Herman 9,819]

I posted this on t'other thread too. It's the drier, technical, very in depth story of this scandal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m000jf7j

[A Load of Squit 5,209]

I remember reading the story in Private Eye, it made me feel sick. I'm not sure I can watch this, it's disgusting how they were treated and how the ICL/Fujitsu/The Post Office reacted.

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/justice-lost-in-the-post.pdf

 

 

[Daz Sparks 1,174]

I agree with Dylan and LoS, it's almost a difficult watch, but it is good that the scandal is being brought to the fore on one of the flagship channels at peak time. By the time this series has ended, many, many more people will know about it and the light shining on the Post Office will be brighter than ever. 

[Herman 9,819]

Episode 2 down. The young Sikh lady.....🤬

[yellowrider120 777]

It was one of the most moving yet horrendous factual pieces of TV production I've seen. Riveting from the first minute to the last just a few moments ago. Scandalous how the wheels of 'justice' (that's a joke!) have grinded forward so slowly over the years yet seemingly not a single person responsible for this outrage within The Post Office has (so far) been punished. Jo Hamilton in particular was (and is) absolutely outstanding in her campaign to prove her innocence and the innocence of hundreds of others.   

[Herman 9,819]

Why aren't Fujitsu getting more of a kicking?

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

43 minutes ago, Herman said:

Why aren't Fujitsu getting more of a kicking?

It's odd isn't it. I assume that the Post Office hasn't taken action against Fujitsu because if they had they would have been admitting that Horizon didn't work after spending years stating that it did. 

[Creative Midfielder 2,001]

4 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

It's odd isn't it. I assume that the Post Office hasn't taken action against Fujitsu because if they had they would have been admitting that Horizon didn't work after spending years stating that it did. 

I think that would be a big part of it but there would other admissions necessary as well, such as that the PO's investigations into the discrepancies which they used to destroy the postmasters' livelihoods and in many cases gain criminal convictions and imprison them were totally bogus - that was the the PO's responsibility not Fujitsu's.

What I don't understand is why the police are, as usual when establishment figures are involved, still twiddling their thumbs when it was made clear by the High Court years ago that multiple senior Post Office managers should be prosecuted for criminal offences.

Edited January 5 by Creative Midfielder

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe?source=rawlink&utm_medium=socialshare&utm_source=rawlink&share=4e020911-f410-462d-b8e5-b6f736147c7b

[Herman 9,819]

7 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I think that would be a big part of it but there would other admissions necessary as well, such as that the PO's investigations into the discrepancies which they used to destroy the postmasters' livelihoods and in many cases gain criminal convictions and imprison them were totally bogus - that was the the PO's responsibility not Fujitsu's.

What I don't understand is why the police are, as usual when establishment figures are involved, still twiddling their thumbs when it was made clear by the High Court years ago that multiple senior Post Office managers should be prosecuted for criminal offences.

Fair points CM.👍

Another question is why the PO went down this terrible route to protect a company that sold them a real shoddy product. It doesn't make any sense to me. They could have sorted this right at the start.

[Mr Angry 1,570]

A friend of mine has worked for the Post Office for all his working life, starting off behind the counter-last time I spoke to him his job was to advise failing Post Office managers has how to turn their businesses around.

I asked him about this scandal when I first heard about it a few years ago. He told me that most managers were on the fiddle.

I wasn’t sure if he was joking, if he was toeing the official Post Office line or if he has seen evidence of it during his 30+ years working.

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

10 hours ago, Mr Angry said:

A friend of mine has worked for the Post Office for all his working life, starting off behind the counter-last time I spoke to him his job was to advise failing Post Office managers has how to turn their businesses around.

I asked him about this scandal when I first heard about it a few years ago. He told me that most managers were on the fiddle.

I wasn’t sure if he was joking, if he was toeing the official Post Office line or if he has seen evidence of it during his 30+ years working.

Anybody who claims most of their colleagues are on the fiddle is probably in the wrong job.

In any large organisation there will always be a small number of people who are dishonest and occasionally the Post Office caught them. What is clear from this drama and the proceedings it's based on is that a very large number of honest, ordinary people were tarred with the same brush. Sadly, the people that first investigated them followed a script rather than using their brains. Unfortunately it would appear that the investigators were not the brightest. 

If you take the time to read the report that Herman has provided above you will see a degree of management and investigative incompetence that beggars belief. 

Edited January 6 by dylanisabaddog

[Herman 9,819]

Quick off the blocks.😳

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/05/post-office-criminal-investigation-potential-horizon-accounting-fraud

[Well b back 3,269]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Quick off the blocks.😳

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/05/post-office-criminal-investigation-potential-horizon-accounting-fraud

Indeed the bbc are now reporting this as well. Why did it take a TV programme ? The court cases were a longtime ago.

Still can’t see why Vanessa what’s her name has not been relieved of her CBE. Based on the tv programme I guess there is a fair chance she could be charged with corporate manslaughter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67899189

[Creative Midfielder 2,001]

On 05/01/2024 at 16:07, Herman said:

Fair points CM.👍

Another question is why the PO went down this terrible route to protect a company that sold them a real shoddy product. It doesn't make any sense to me. They could have sorted this right at the start.

Absolutely, they could and should have done precisely that and that is of course highlights another huge flaw in both Fujitsu's and the PO's handing of this disgraceful shambles - any remotely competent software developer knows that a system of this size and complexity needs really comprehensive testing before going anywhere near the customer - that clearly didn't happen.

Even when Fujitsu were happy it was ready then the PO should have conducted their own tests of the system to satisfy themselves it was working correctly - that clearly wasn't done.

Finally when the PO was also satsfied with the system it should have been rolled out to a relatively small number of carefully controlled and studied 'pilots' to ensure that the system performed correctly in the real world - that clearly didn't happen.

Seems to me, that given all of that, plus the complete denial that problems existed even whilst having the logs of their help line containing millions of calls telling them otherwise, that Fujistsu and the Post Office are both guilty of a gigantic fraud.

In many ways this is pretty typical of the way that most large Government IT projects have gone over the last 20 years, which has been one of hugely over-priced systems failing to deliver the required and working system on-time and on-budget and in some cases not at all.

The key difference with the Post Office is that in most cases these IT shambles become visible to the public fairly quickly but here PO somehow managed to keep their's under wraps for years which I think,  as a Governemnt owned/public service), raises some very uncomfortable questions about how that was possible both for the government and also our supposed top notch legal system which convicted hundreds of people of financial crimes on zero or very flimsy evidence which wasn't tested in any way by the courts.

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

Sunak has today described this scandal as "happening long ago in the 1990's".

Absolutely extraordinary. The 700+ prosecutions were between 1999 and 2015.

[sonyc 5,541]

On 06/01/2024 at 09:58, Well b back said:

Indeed the bbc are now reporting this as well. Why did it take a TV programme ? The court cases were a longtime ago.

Still can’t see why Vanessa what’s her name has not been relieved of her CBE. Based on the tv programme I guess there is a fair chance she could be charged with corporate manslaughter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67899189

Yep, it was a comparatively recent thing. A shocking injustice (haven't been able to watch despite Toby Jones being in it as I was angry and upset about it when it all emerged....our local PO post office manager disappeared at the time and has only just been able to go on social media in the last two days saying what happened). Typical now for a TV programme to show this up and the government to respond. But...well played to the writers.

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

22 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Absolutely, they could and should have done precisely that and that is of course highlights another huge flaw in both Fujitsu's and the PO's handing of this disgraceful shambles - any remotely competent software developer knows that a system of this size and complexity needs really comprehensive testing before going anywhere near the customer - that clearly didn't happen.

Even when Fujitsu were happy it was ready then the PO should have conducted their own tests of the system to satisfy themselves it was working correctly - that clearly wasn't done.

Finally when the PO was also satsfied with the system it should have been rolled out to a relatively small number of carefully controlled and studied 'pilots' to ensure that the system performed correctly in the real world - that clearly didn't happen.

Seems to me, that given all of that, plus the complete denial that problems existed even whilst having the logs of their help line containing millions of calls telling them otherwise, that Fujistsu and the Post Office are both guilty of a gigantic fraud.

In many ways this is pretty typical of the way that most large Government IT projects have gone over the last 20 years, which has been one of hugely over-priced systems failing to deliver the required and working system on-time and on-budget and in some cases not at all.

The key difference with the Post Office is that in most cases these IT shambles become visible to the public fairly quickly but here PO somehow managed to keep their's under wraps for years which I think,  as a Governemnt owned/public service), raises some very uncomfortable questions about how that was possible both for the government and also our supposed top notch legal system which convicted hundreds of people of financial crimes on zero or very flimsy evidence which wasn't tested in any way by the courts.

The key difference between this and other fraud cases is that the Post Office has the power to police the system and prosecute without reference to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). If the Police and CPS had been involved it is highly unlikely that any more than the first few cases would have got to court. The group run by Alan Bates and a former MP (James Arbuthnot) is quite rightly trying to get those rights removed. 

Arbuthnot is an Eton educated Lord who was formerly a Tory MP.  Everything I hate in life but he is actually a highly intelligent and decent man and has worked long and hard for those affected. I like him even more because bizarrely his middle name is Norwich! 

Edited January 8 by dylanisabaddog

[Creative Midfielder 2,001]

40 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The key difference between this and other fraud cases is that the Post Office has the power to police the system and prosecute without reference to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). If the Police and CPS had been involved it is highly unlikely that any more than the first few cases would have got to court. The group run by Alan Bates and a former MP (James Arbuthnot) is quite rightly trying to get those rights removed. 

Arbuthnot is an Eton educated Lord who was formerly a Tory MP.  Everything I hate in life but he is actually a highly intelligent and decent man and has worked long and hard for those affected. I like him even more because bizarrely his middle name is Norwich! 

I see that from today's news the situation is even worse than I suggested yesterday, https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/07/post-office-suspected-of-more-wrongful-prosecutions-of-operators-over-horizon

It seems that the Post Office did run quite a large pilot scheme at the start of the national rollout and they did find software problems but instead of investigating and fixing the software issues.................they prosecuted the sub-postmasters!!!!

Totally unbelieveable, utterly disgusting and surely must be criminal, and therefore I imagine involving far more PO employees than just the top management being involved in criminal acts.

[horsefly 4,310]

I see Preeti Patel posted a big picture of herself on X calling for "all the powers" to be used to ensure that justice is done in holding those responsible for this scandal to be held to account. The scandal had been fully exposed back in 2019 with the courts overturning previous prosecutions. Patel was Home Secretary from 2019-22. She did absolutely nothing when she had "all the powers". I don't know about anyone else but I'm getting very sick of hearing government ministers (including the PM) suddenly express their anger about something of which they have been well aware for at least 3-years.

[Well b back 3,269]

56 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I see Preeti Patel posted a big picture of herself on X calling for "all the powers" to be used to ensure that justice is done in holding those responsible for this scandal to be held to account. The scandal had been fully exposed back in 2019 with the courts overturning previous prosecutions. Patel was Home Secretary from 2019-22. She did absolutely nothing when she had "all the powers". I don't know about anyone else but I'm getting very sick of hearing government ministers (including the PM) suddenly express their anger about something of which they have been well aware for at least 3-years.

Yes I find it gob smacking.

With the quashing of the convictions, that was the time to do something. Instead they do nothing, until suddenly there is a public outcry, and guess what, they are in full support of the public view. They are actually using this to gain political points, unbelievable !
Had it not been for ITV bringing the whole facts to the public, then they still would not have given a f***. 
In addition Vennells should have her CBE or OBE whichever it is stripped from her, before she gets the chance to less embarrassingly hand it back.

[horsefly 4,310]

Anyone surprised by this?  https://x.com/MissyFitLondon/status/1743759354455638523?s=20

[Barbe bleu 832]

4 hours ago, Well b back said:

Yes I find it gob smacking.

With the quashing of the convictions, that was the time to do something. Instead they do nothing, until suddenly there is a public outcry, and guess what, they are in full support of the public view. They are actually using this to gain political points, unbelievable !
Had it not been for ITV bringing the whole facts to the public, then they still would not have given a f***. 
 

After the Court of appeal decisions in April 2021 the Inquiry that was opened in September 2020 was put on a statutory footing, its not published a final report yet

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/

I read a lot of politicking from the big 3 parties - plenty of deflection and finger pointing but I think if you are examining the party politics of this you are missing the really important questions such as:

Should individual public bodies be able to bring criminal prosecutions ?

Should there be a review body that looks at how prosections are conducted in a way that individual case officers in the weeds of their investigation probably cannot?

And,

Why does it take 3 years for a public inquiry to not even get to the end of evidence?

 

 

 

Edited January 8 by Barbe bleu

[Herman 9,819]

ITV's next few series lined up, hopefully.

Mr Bates Versus The Brexit Conmen.

Mr Bates Versus The PPE Suppliers.

Mr Bates Versus The Water Companies.

etc. etc. etc.

Edited January 8 by Herman
Stolen Joke

[sonyc 5,541]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

ITV's next few series lined up, hopefully.

Mr Bates Versus The Brexit Conmen.

Mr Bates Versus The PPE Suppliers.

Mr Bates Versus The Water Companies.

etc. etc. etc.

Yep, amazing what popular culture can achieve isn't it!

No need to read the Guardian. Bring it on.

There is a case for public information films you might argue...the dangers of vaping, don't eat too much....etc etc etc rather than the stories demonising people, like those nasty asylum seekers lurking everywhere.

I hope that water companies get their karma from that list.

[SteveN8458 64]

Watched the last episode last night.
My wife was supprised that ANYONE would have access to the individual accounts, whereas I wasn't.
Quite clearly Fujitsu had supplied a bag of balls and the postoffice NEVER tested it properly.
For me there should be procecutions for corporate manslaughter on behalf of those that took their own lives, both from the postoffice and fujitsu.


Then there is the issue of compensation, why is this NOT been paid out?? The gov' has agreed to it, but are stalling on paying it out.


I have signed this petition:
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitio...ource=homepage

and this one:
https://www.change.org/p/biztradegov...accountability

[Herman 9,819]

Sir Ed "Gravy" Davey getting a bit of heat now too.

[sonyc 5,541]

From today's The Knowledge (an aggregate daily newsletter)...

The Post Office scandal: a sign of things to come

It should not have taken an ITV drama – Mr Bates vs the Post Office – to shame politicians into caring about the Horizon IT scandal, says The Independent. Due to a software glitch, more than 700 subpostmasters were falsely accused and convicted of having their fingers in the till. Many were jailed; others were bankrupted. “At least four died by suicide.” For years the Post Office and Fujitsu, the Japanese firm responsible for the tech, did everything they could to “obfuscate and deny justice”. Politicians and civil servants utterly failed to hold the organisation to account, not least Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey – as postal affairs minister when the issues came to light in 2010, he had a chance, “rarely for a Lib Dem”, to actually do something. The government must ensure not only that victims “receive belated justice”, but also that “those guilty of wrongdoing are held responsible”.

What’s scary, says Hugo Rifkind in The Times, is that Horizon is just one example of many. In recent years, all around the world, automated systems designed to spot fraud have ended up making baseless accusations. In Michigan, a computer falsely accused 34,000 people of welfare fraud between 2013 and 2015. More recently, in Australia, the so-called “Robodebt” scandal saw fines issued to 470,000 people on benefits, leading to at least three suicides. The problem in these cases wasn’t just the “abrupt, unfair demand for life-ruining sums”. It was that when the innocent victims tried to talk to an actual human to put things right, they found there wasn’t one. And the more we automate, the fewer people there will be who understand what’s going on. For now, there is still some guilty techie lurking behind the code. “Hound them. Blame them. Just as importantly, though, make sure they’re always there.”

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

Vennels has handed back her CBE. But the Head of the Church of England has supported her and she retains her position as a Priest in the C of E. Why? What a truly disgusting organisation