All of these are deadwood or League One standard...

[JonnyJonnyRowe 502]

Starting point for the rebuild in my opinion. Its unfortunate that a couple of players who aren't on this list are out of contract in the summer and therefore also likely to be out of the door, the two left backs for a start. 

 

Finished, pay them off / release in summer:

Ashley Barnes

George Long

Jacob Sorenson

Przemyslaw Placheta*

Onel Hernandez

Adam Forshaw

Tony Springett

Ben Gibson

Christos Tzolis

*I feel a bit for Placheta, he looked full of confidence and determination at the start of the season and looked like he might finally breakthrough, but was mismanaged, the manager decided he was a left back despite him clearly being better than Springett & Hernandez on the left wing, however out of contract in the summer and he's just not shown enough for a new one, was his final chance and Wagner didn't really give him a fair crack at it.

 

Jury still out but not looking good:

Christian Fassnacht 

Liam Gibbs

Edited December 29, 2023 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[daly 513]

Add Duffy

[JonnyJonnyRowe 502]

Just now, daly said:

Add Duffy

I had him on my jury out list, however his 3 year contract means we just need to hope and pray that he is more effective in the next managers system. And he looks like Bobby Moore next to Ben Gibson.

[canarybubbles 1,952]

Disagree about Tzolis. In a different system, with a different manager, I still think he could be OK. But I think he doesn't want to be here and will go to Dusseldorf, where he seems to be doing quite well. We'll have to take a big hit on what we paid for him but I think his days at Norwich are over. The whole thing has been bad for us, bad for him.

Duffy is OK as a back-up, I think, if he is happy enough to sit on the bench most of the time. Gibbs needs to be given some time under a new manager to see what he can do if he has someone who has more idea about how to realise his potential.

Agree about the rest.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 502]

9 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Disagree about Tzolis. In a different system, with a different manager, I still think he could be OK.

He's pretty much said he hates it at Norwich hasn't he, no way back for him now. He's deadwood for that reason alone.

I am also beginning to seriously wonder about just how poor Bundesliga II is, remember that Dennis Srbeny scored 16 goals in a season in Bundesliga II after leaving here, couldn't imagine him doing that in the Championship, and most of what we signed out of that league was substandard (bare in mind that we signed Leitner, Vrancic and Rupp from the top tier not the second tier). Zimmerman went from looking completely shot to pieces here to winning promotion from Bundesliga II.

Philip Heise didn't get a kick and Marcel Franke looked well out of his depth after we paid a couple of million for him. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[Indy 3,323]

Hwang? League 2

[Nexus_Canary 1,028]

Argos is someone you need in the dressing room. I would keep him around as an impact sub.

Barnes is past it unfortunately but again for his experience its a player you keep around for an impact.

 

Rest of them I totally agree with Gibson, Long and Springett fighting it out to be at the front of the bus que. 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 502]

44 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Gibbs needs to be given some time under a new manager to see what he can do if he has someone who has more idea about how to realise his potential.

I just really struggle to see what he offers or what he is good at, seems to be below average technically and doesn't appear to have any innate footballing intelligence. He is industrious and runs a lot but so did Shaun Carey and he never amounted to anything, Carey was an Ireland U21 international at 20 and played 68 games for us, ended up playing a few season in the lower leagues after leaving us and then at King's Lynn before he was 30.

I suppose at 21 there might be more to come, but maybe he'd benefit from going to play 46 games next season for Lincoln, Cambridge or Northampton in League One. Will soon become clear whether he looks out of place in that league and deserves a shot in the Championship or whether that is just his level.

Edited December 30, 2023 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[Monty13 2,256]

Harsh on Springett, he’s shown flashes.

If we aren’t going to play him get him out on loan, same as Gibbs IMO.

Younger players need to be playing week in week out IMO, if they aren’t ready for that here they need to go somewhere else.

Stunts a young players career being a bit part player.

[ged in the onion bag 857]

49 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

He's pretty much said he hates it at Norwich hasn't he, no way back for him now. He's deadwood for that reason alone.

Understandable really…. We really let that lad down badly!   Sad but I blame the club for that, not him.     

[JonnyJonnyRowe 502]

9 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Harsh on Springett, he’s shown flashes.

If we aren’t going to play him get him out on loan, same as Gibbs IMO.

Yeah send them both out on loan for the season, see whether they stand out.

However he's not really all that young, he's 22 in September and didn't pull up any trees at Derby in League One last season, 0 assists and 0 goals in 11 games for them. He's 18 months older than Jonny Rowe.

It begs the question of why we thought he was ready for this level when he didn't do anything of note at the level below, it should have been this season that he was loaned back out to that level and told it was sink or swim. Jacob Murphy went out and played 80 games on loan across three divisions before he was given a league start for us. Played in the Champions League this season.

Gibbs and Springett need to be out cutting their teeth in League One just like Jacob Murphy and Ben Godfrey did. Would soon become apparent whether they have genuine Championship potential.

Edited December 30, 2023 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[ged in the onion bag 857]

6 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Harsh on Springett, he’s shown flashes.

If we aren’t going to play him get him out on loan, same as Gibbs IMO.

Younger players need to be playing week in week out IMO, if they aren’t ready for that here they need to go somewhere else.

Stunts a young players career being a bit part player.

Springett would do as much as Hernandez, Gibbs is our most likely CDM at present …. Good managers would show belief in them and give them proper opportunities and patience to bring them through…. Gibbs doesn’t need a loan, he needs games as CDM.   
 

Warner needs games as CB, season is over other than to develop.    

[nutty nigel 7,653]

Surely Springett would have been on loan but for Sainz injury. I would expect a loan to happen in January but it's not the same value to the player as a season long loan.

[ged in the onion bag 857]

2 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Yeah send them both out on loan for the season, see whether they stand out.

However he's not really all that young, he's 22 in September and didn't pull up any trees at Derby in League One last season, 0 assists and 0 goals in 11 games for them. He's 18 months older than Jonny Rowe.

It begs the question of why we thought he was ready for this level when he didn't do anything of note at the level below, it should have been this season that he was loaned back out to that level and told it was sink or swim. Jacob Murphy went out and played 80 games on loan across three divisions before he was given a league start for us. Played in the Champions League this season.

Gibbs and Springett need to be out cutting their teeth in League One just like Jacob Murphy and Ben Godfrey did. Would soon become apparent whether they have genuine Championship potential.

Mumba did that, was L1 young player of the season, playing left midfield / wing!    What did we do?   Gave him away for peanuts and played Hernandez and Platcheta wide left!    Club needs manager who is brave, gets the lads inspired and believing again.    That doesn’t happen with short term strategy and incompetent staff in recruitment and coaching functions.    That needs sorting first!

[JonnyJonnyRowe 502]

2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Surely Springett would have been on loan but for Sainz injury. 

Maybe, but then in the Leeds home defeat Wagner took off Onel for Tony Springett in around the 60th minute (to very audible groans) when he had Sainz and Placheta on the bench, who both didn't get on at all. 

Even if Sainz was considered not ready, it was really poor man management to stick a very raw kid on in that game when Placheta had looked dangerous when played on the left earlier in the season.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 502]

3 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Mumba did that, was L1 young player of the season, playing left midfield / wing!    What did we do?   Gave him away for peanuts and played Hernandez and Platcheta wide left!   

I'm friends with an Ipswich fan (just the one, only one I've found who is tolerable) who is amazed that we flogged Mumba for just £1m. 

[percy varco 202]

1 hour ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

I'm friends with an Ipswich fan (just the one, only one I've found who is tolerable) who is amazed that we flogged Mumba for just £1m. 

No Championship team sells any player for just a million. Every player who commands a fee is worth a min 3 million and that would still have been cheap for Mumba. 
it shows how pityful our strategy in the Transfer market was. 

[nutty nigel 7,653]

10 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Maybe, but then in the Leeds home defeat Wagner took off Onel for Tony Springett in around the 60th minute (to very audible groans) when he had Sainz and Placheta on the bench, who both didn't get on at all. 

Even if Sainz was considered not ready, it was really poor man management to stick a very raw kid on in that game when Placheta had looked dangerous when played on the left earlier in the season.

But that's got nothing to do with why Springett didn't go out on loan.

[norfolkngood 1,092]

12 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Argos is someone you need in the dressing room. I would keep him around as an impact sub.

Barnes is past it unfortunately but again for his experience its a player you keep around for an impact.

 

sorry not for me they get paid to much just for a cheerleader role with little end product,

i would ship both out Barnes will be harder as contract but maybe a free somewhere ,

[Nexus_Canary 1,028]

36 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

sorry not for me they get paid to much just for a cheerleader role with little end product,

i would ship both out Barnes will be harder as contract but maybe a free somewhere ,

Fair play, i would reckon Barnes is on a wedge but Argos is a little more humble and just happy to be here. (Might be wrong) 

[CDMullins 446]

14 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Argos is someone you need in the dressing room. I would keep him around as an impact sub.

Barnes is past it unfortunately but again for his experience its a player you keep around for an impact.

 

Rest of them I totally agree with Gibson, Long and Springett fighting it out to be at the front of the bus que. 

"I would keep him around as an impact sub."

 

But he doesn't make an impact...

Edited December 30, 2023 by CDMullins

[JonnyJonnyRowe 502]

7 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

But that's got nothing to do with why Springett didn't go out on loan.

We knew that Sainz was injured (was injured when we signed him late June) when we opted to flog Bali Mumba who had featured for us out wide (late July).

So while you are saying that we opted to keep Springett around because Sainz was injured, I could counter by saying that we chose to flog Bali Mumba instead of allowing Springett back out on loan to continue to develop.

[Michael Starr 522]

maybe we need a thread on who to keep. It'll be a much smaller list.

[Midlands Yellow 4,114]

5 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

maybe we need a thread on who to keep. It'll be a much smaller list.

The tea lady and the kind barman at the Lion &Castle? 

[nutty nigel 7,653]

1 hour ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

We knew that Sainz was injured (was injured when we signed him late June) when we opted to flog Bali Mumba who had featured for us out wide (late July).

So while you are saying that we opted to keep Springett around because Sainz was injured, I could counter by saying that we chose to flog Bali Mumba instead of allowing Springett back out on loan to continue to develop.

You certainly could if that's what you think.

[hogesar 9,776]

20 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

I had him on my jury out list, however his 3 year contract means we just need to hope and pray that he is more effective in the next managers system. And he looks like Bobby Moore next to Ben Gibson.

I mean, pre injury Gibson was defending better than Duffy whilst also actually being capable of distributing the ball.

Even yesterday one of the only times we got in behind was a Gibson through ball.

[Midlands Yellow 4,114]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I mean, pre injury Gibson was defending better than Duffy whilst also actually being capable of distributing the ball.

Even yesterday one of the only times we got in behind was a Gibson through ball.

Joking apart, you work for the club don’t you! Fair play if you don’t and it’s a parody account. 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 502]

33 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I mean, pre injury Gibson was defending better than Duffy whilst also actually being capable of distributing the ball.

Even yesterday one of the only times we got in behind was a Gibson through ball.

Sorry but I just don't find Gibson very convincing at all.

Clearly our last two managers have disagreed with me, however I've not really rated them either 

I've read both on here and on facebook that Gibson is alleged to be our highest earning player, not sure if that is just taken from Football Manager or if it has any basis in reality, but if there is any truth to that then I doubt it matters which one of us is right and that he'll be gone in the summer unless he takes a huge pay cut. I could see him going back to Middlesbrough to play for his uncle regardless

[JonnyJonnyRowe 502]

49 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

You certainly could if that's what you think.

The only opinion I really have is that he doesn't look ready for this level of football.

Then he went and scored a hat trick against Man City U21s. So there might be a player in there, but I personally think he needs to be blooded by a team in the league below and then given a chance here only if he impresses at that level.

Jacob Murphy is perhaps the best example of a player who went out and earnt his stripes, seems to have stood him in good stead.

Edited December 30, 2023 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[nutty nigel 7,653]

39 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

The only opinion I really have is that he doesn't look ready for this level of football.

Then he went and scored a hat trick against Man City U21s. So there might be a player in there, but I personally think he needs to be blooded by a team in the league below and then given a chance here only if he impresses at that level.

Jacob Murphy is perhaps the best example of a player who went out and earnt his stripes, seems to have stood him in good stead.

Yes, I thought that Springett should have gone on loan but understood why not.

As for Mumba, he was a different position and it was said the deciding factor in his departure was that they were impressed by Kellen Fisher.