Simple Reason(s) Why Wagner WON'T Go

[JB 115]

For me, the game was the final straw in terms of my faith in Wagner at the helm. Other threads have handled, and are handling what he is doing wrong, so I won't go into those aspects again, but I believe he won't go regardless of how bad he is, or how much he's lost the dressing room etc. This is because of Knapper coming in soon and he will ultimately determine his fate. Knapper will be seeing all of this now and I suspect he will move Wagner on once his reign starts, but before then, there is no logic for Webber to get rid. He is leaving so likely doesn't care too much any more, but if he was to remove Wagner, who's he bringing in for what could well be extremely short-term until Knapper comes in and wants his own man in the job? To me, it just wouldn't make any sense for a Sporting Director who is about to leave, to sack a manager and source a replacement he'll have nothing to do with in a few months. 

Unfortunately, we'll be waiting a lot longer than we'd like for managerial/coaching changes, is how I'm seeing things.

Edited October 24, 2023 by JB

[Branston Pickle 3,659]

There’s logic there, but also nothing stopping us having a conversation with the new guy and getting his thoughts.  If we wanted to give Wagner the elbow I’m sure we wouldn’t let it stop us.

[S_81 797]

He won’t go because we are in limbo - and also because Webber would have to admit yet more failure. The owners are far too gullible - so won’t call for action. Nor would they want to fund any pay off - or more hiring. So for now this will continue to drift and we will drop like a stone 

[BroadstairsR 2,169]

There is such a thing as a caretaker manager.

Knapper's first job should not be to sack the manager. Webber created the mess and should do the decent thing. 

[mannings bandy legs 388]

1 minute ago, JB said:

For me, the game was the final straw in terms of my faith in Wagner at the helm. Other threads have handled, and are handling what he is doing wrong, so I won't go into those aspects again, but I believe he won't go regardless of how bad he is, or how much he's lost the dressing room etc. This is because of Knapper coming in soon and he will ultimately determine his fate. Knapper will be seeing all of this now and I suspect he will move Wagner on once his reign starts, but before then, there is no logic for Webber to get rid. He is leaving so likely doesn't care too much any more, but if he was to remove Wagner, who's he bringing in for what could well be extremely short-term until Knapper comes in and wants his own man in the job? To me, it just wouldn't make any sense for a Sporting Director who is about to leave, to sack a manager and source a replacement he'll have nothing to do with in a few months. 

Unfortunately, we'll be waiting a lot longer than we'd like for managerial/coaching changes, is how I'm seeing things.

As i've stated before,nothing stopping Webber asking Knapper who's his choice and begin talks with him now. Get him in ready. Two more possible defeats and we're in with the dead men at the bottom with confidence of a squad at the lowest.

[mastoola 183]

we would need to sell another player to pay him off    thats the reason 

[JB 115]

Just now, mastoola said:

we would need to sell another player to pay him off    thats the reason 

Could also be another reason, absolutely. 

[KeiranShikari 1,412]

Yup, he won't go because we'll want the new manager to be chosen by a guy who isn't in position for another month.

[JB 115]

1 minute ago, mannings bandy legs said:

As i've stated before,nothing stopping Webber asking Knapper who's his choice and begin talks with him now. Get him in ready. Two more possible defeats and we're in with the dead men at the bottom with confidence of a squad at the lowest.

I'll politely disagree with that one. Although you're right in that he could ask his opinion, that's all it'll be, an opinion. Webber has no reason to do anything based on someone's opinion as it stands. He's nothing to gain or lose in doing so, so won't do anything. I could well be proved wrong of course, so I suppose we'll watching this space. 

[canarybubbles 1,915]

5 minutes ago, S_81 said:

He won’t go because we are in limbo - and also because Webber would have to admit yet more failure. The owners are far too gullible - so won’t call for action. Nor would they want to fund any pay off - or more hiring. So for now this will continue to drift and we will drop like a stone 

Yes, Webber's final gift to the club is putting us in this limbo for the first half of this season. And even when he does finally deign to leave, someone will have to try to pick up the pieces.

[S_81 797]

1 minute ago, canarybubbles said:

Yes, Webber's final gift to the club is putting us in this limbo for the first half of this season. And even when he does finally deign to leave, someone will have to try to pick up the pieces.

And giving us Hwang. Could be forgiven for thinking it’s all an act of spite 

[canarybubbles 1,915]

I'd like to think that this will damage his reputation so badly that he will never get another DoF job, but sadly I don't think this will happen. He'll find another set of suckers to play his three-card trick on. That's how charlatans work - they move on as soon as they are found out.

[Highland Canary 76]

No energy in the team. No energy in the crowd. Noone expected us to win. The outcome inevitable. We won’t win another game with Wagner in charge. Let’s hope the change is made before we slip into a relegation scrap.

[Wimbledoncanary 8]

I wouldn’t dream of this normally but let Webber and Wagner walk tonight . Put Neil Adams in charge of first team on temp basis til new sporting director comes in to make his choices . Adams has managed in the division before and I actually think he will do a better job then Wagner. At least when he was managing we weren’t booong !

[mannings bandy legs 388]

38 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

I'd like to think that this will damage his reputation so badly that he will never get another DoF job, but sadly I don't think this will happen. He'll find another set of suckers to play his three-card trick on. That's how charlatans work - they move on as soon as they are found out.

His next job won't be in football. He's hinted at that. But his tenure here will confirm that.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

It doesn't make sense to have a new manager appointed until the new sporting director can lead the process. But I don't see any point of continuing with Wagner, so I like the idea of putting Adams in charge as caretaker for the moment.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It doesn't make sense to have a new manager appointed until the new sporting director can lead the process. But I don't see any point of continuing with Wagner, so I like the idea of putting Adams in charge as caretaker for the moment.

Or, as some have said elsewhere, Narcis Pelach is a young, progressive coach with a good reputation. Let Adams concentrate on the off-field stuff, and give Pelach the reins until Knapper takes over. Like it or not, Webber will be here for at least another month, and probably a little while after that to hand over to Knapper.

In the meantime, though, this team is drowning with Wagner at the helm. Another no-show at Sunderland and that may well be curtains.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

12 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Or, as some have said elsewhere, Narcis Pelach is a young, progressive coach with a good reputation. Let Adams concentrate on the off-field stuff, and give Pelach the reins until Knapper takes over. Like it or not, Webber will be here for at least another month, and probably a little while after that to hand over to Knapper.

In the meantime, though, this team is drowning with Wagner at the helm. Another no-show at Sunderland and that may well be curtains.

Id be surprised if anyone would take it without a commitment from the club, and I don't think the club can give it until Knapper is in place.
Completely agree there is no point Wagner staying in place though. He really has been a comprehensive failure.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Id be surprised if anyone would take it without a commitment from the club, and I don't think the club can give it until Knapper is in place.
Completely agree there is no point Wagner staying in place though. He really has been a comprehensive failure.

Well Pelach is already our employee, so I'd be surprised if he didn't want the chance to be our caretaker manager. Would be an ideal solution to buy Knapper a bit of time. And there's nothing to spend in January anyway, so unless Pelach was a total disaster we could do worse than give him until the end of the season... unless Knapper has another trick up his sleeve.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

2 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Well Pelach is already our employee, so I'd be surprised if he didn't want the chance to be our caretaker manager. Would be an ideal solution to buy Knapper a bit of time. And there's nothing to spend in January anyway, so unless Pelach was a total disaster we could do worse than give him until the end of the season... unless Knapper has another trick up his sleeve.

It's true, but if he takes it as caretaker he runs the risk of going the same way as Adams: A difficult start that blots his copybook for getting it permanently. Maybe assisting Adams as caretaker?

Edited October 25, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's true, but if he takes it as caretaker he runs the risk of going the same way as Adams: A difficult start that blots his copybook for getting it permanently. Maybe assisting Adams as caretaker?

Personally I'd rather Neil Adams spends his time trying to manage the handover from Webber to Knapper, as he's going to be the voice of continuity in that process. If I were in charge I'd put Webber on gardening leave today, let Adams manage the handover to Knapper, and let Steve Weaver assist Pelach... but we know that Webber does what he wants with practically zero accountability.

[Nuff Said 5,142]

7 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Well Pelach is already our employee, so I'd be surprised if he didn't want the chance to be our caretaker manager. Would be an ideal solution to buy Knapper a bit of time. And there's nothing to spend in January anyway, so unless Pelach was a total disaster we could do worse than give him until the end of the season... unless Knapper has another trick up his sleeve.

I seem to remember some surprise that Pelach hadn’t waited or chosen a role as manager when he came here as he had a decent reputation as an up and coming coach, so he would appear to be the obvious candidate. There is the counter-argument that he wouldn’t want the poisoned chalice though, but not a good look refusing to step up when asked.

[Nuff Said 5,142]

Also, are Andy Hughes and Pelach both first team coaches? It looks that way. How does that work?

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

Sack Wagner and if Pelach isn't prepared to step up then sack him as well. Reality is no upcoming coach would refuse the opportunity. 

If a new coach does come in  then it's likely they'll want their own coaching team anyway. 

Potentially it gives Knapper a bit of breathing space. It would be a good short term sensible decision to stem the tide of misery and hopefully get us winning a few games.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

1 minute ago, Nuff Said said:

There is the counter-argument that he wouldn’t want the poisoned chalice though.

That's exactly why he'd be mad to take it at the moment. It is a poisoned chalice. Nobody in their right mind would touch it without the assurance of time to work on it.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

1 minute ago, Nuff Said said:

I seem to remember some surprise that Pelach hadn’t waited or chosen a role as manager when he came here as he had a decent reputation as an up and coming coach, so he would appear to be the obvious candidate. There is the counter-argument that he wouldn’t want the poisoned chalice though, but not a good look refusing to step up when asked.

Don't see it as a poisoned chalice at all. We're underperforming and underachieving, Pelach is young and hungry... if it doesn't work out here, he'll bounce back. But he has the opportunity to implement new ideas and ways of working, and get the players playing with confidence again... surely as an ambitious young coach you'd jump at that chance?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

7 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Don't see it as a poisoned chalice at all. We're underperforming and underachieving, Pelach is young and hungry... if it doesn't work out here, he'll bounce back. But he has the opportunity to implement new ideas and ways of working, and get the players playing with confidence again... surely as an ambitious young coach you'd jump at that chance?

Think back to last time we had a caretaker, which was Neil Adams after Chris Hughton. Neil Adams had an absurdly difficult task with those fixtures at the end of the season. Nobody should have reasonably expected him to keep us up.I thought he improved the play, but he didn't get the results, and ultimately it was the results that dictated the negative reception to him getting the permanent job.

This is not as difficult task, granted, but the squad is bereft of confidence, fans more widely despondent than just the manager,  and still with plenty of injury problems.

If you don't see it as a poisoned chalice then fair enough, but I'll agree to differ on that.

Edited October 25, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Nuff Said 5,142]

3 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Don't see it as a poisoned chalice at all. We're underperforming and underachieving, Pelach is young and hungry... if it doesn't work out here, he'll bounce back. But he has the opportunity to implement new ideas and ways of working, and get the players playing with confidence again... surely as an ambitious young coach you'd jump at that chance?

Maybe, but what has happened to Allan Russell, our ex-set piece coach who temporarily took the reins before Wagner came in? I don’t think it worked out too well for him, he’s had to emigrate to the US by the looks of things to get over the experience and still isn’t working.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,550]

1 minute ago, Nuff Said said:

Maybe, but what has happened to Allan Russell, our ex-set piece coach who temporarily took the reins before Wagner came in? I don’t think it worked out too well for him, he’s had to emigrate to the US by the looks of things to get over the experience and still isn’t working.

Completely forgot about him! Possibly proves the point!

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

Can totally see your point, @littleyellowbirdie and @Nuff Said. It's probably immaterial anyway, as I think the most likely outcome is that we're stuck with Webber and Wagner until December. Would love to be wrong, but I think we're just marking time until Knapper gets his feet under the desk.