Have to say Tzolis is looking much fitter and sharper

[norfolkngood 1,087]

2 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

OK, I know it was only Bournemouth reserves and so on, but look at those highlights and imagine that players who are now rated ahead of him, such as Idah and Placheta and Springett, could in a million years take a game by the scruff of the neck in the way that Tzolis did in that game.

How the hell did we manage to drag down that player in the Bournemouth game to the sad, anxious shell that he has become?

Maybe it is Anxiety , maybe it all got a bit much for him leaving home pressure to succeed ?

i would have thought if it was he would have got a lot of help by the club ,

Iwan Roberts in his book wrote how a young player ian henderson ? used to cry at half time as he thought the fans hated him ? 

you never really know what is going on ,

Of course might not be this in Tzolis case 

[canarybubbles 1,924]

11 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

Maybe it is Anxiety , maybe it all got a bit much for him leaving home pressure to succeed ?

i would have thought if it was he would have got a lot of help by the club ,

Iwan Roberts in his book wrote how a young player ian henderson ? used to cry at half time as he thought the fans hated him ? 

you never really know what is going on ,

Of course might not be this in Tzolis case 

Who knows? It's a waste of talent, and all of those people who say he has no talent should look at the Bournemouth game and ask themselves which players in the current Norwich team could do what Tzolis did in that game, even if it was against Bournemouth reserves blah blah blah. Mumba is another waste of talent; we dump him because he's not very tall. Would we have dumped Iniesta for the same reason? Sadly, I think under Webber and Wagner, the answer is yes. 

At the time I was broadly (60-40) in favour of the Farke sacking. As time has gone on, I'm becoming more and more convinced that I was wrong. The wrong man went and we have never recovered from that decision.

Edited August 4, 2023 by canarybubbles

[norfolkngood 1,087]

40 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Who knows? It's a waste of talent, and all of those people who say he has no talent should look at the Bournemouth game and ask themselves which players in the current Norwich team could do what Tzolis did in that game, even if it was against Bournemouth reserves blah blah blah. Mumba is another waste of talent; we dump him because he's not very tall. Would we have dumped Iniesta for the same reason? Sadly, I think under Webber and Wagner, the answer is yes. 

At the time I was broadly (60-40) in favour of the Farke sacking. As time has gone on, I'm becoming more and more convinced that I was wrong. The wrong man went and we have never recovered from that decision.

I am in the same boat I was 70/30 about Farke sacking, I know I was wrong should have been Webber 

[canarybubbles 1,924]

4 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

I am in the same boat I was 70/30 about Farke sacking, I know I was wrong should have been Webber 

I am angry about how Webber has made himself bullet-proof by resigning but not until next March at the latest and at a date to suit himself (i.e. when he gets an offer for a job he wants). He is well aware that Delia will beg him to stay if he doesn't get the job at Leeds or wherever (Heathcliff, it's me, Kathy!), and then he will play the loyalty card ('I couldn't leave Delia in her hour of need').

As always he has covered his own a*s and looked after his own interests. I just cannot believe that people fall for this sh*t again and again.

This time, though, I hope it is different and the fans make it clear that they want the charlatan out.

[Monty13 2,235]

35 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

I am in the same boat I was 70/30 about Farke sacking, I know I was wrong should have been Webber 

Ive always personally felt he was sacked and probably needed to be sacked because of the position we were in and the direction we were already headed down which was down to Webber. No one was really calling for Webbers head back then though, but it’s pretty clear how disastrous that summer was.

Farke would probably have gone at some point that season regardless, no one could have survived that record if it continued and it’s pretty clear we didn’t have the players he needed for him to turn it around. He was always a victim of circumstances IMO, although partly of his own making.

 

 

[Kingston Yellow 220]

1 hour ago, norfolkngood said:

Maybe it is Anxiety , maybe it all got a bit much for him leaving home pressure to succeed ?

i would have thought if it was he would have got a lot of help by the club ,

Iwan Roberts in his book wrote how a young player ian henderson ? used to cry at half time as he thought the fans hated him ? 

you never really know what is going on ,

Of course might not be this in Tzolis case 

Maybe we could all stop being so wet and recognise that he was another poor signing by Webber. 

[Kingston Yellow 220]

14 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Ive always personally felt he was sacked and probably needed to be sacked because of the position we were in

 

 

That’s great insight. Thanks for that.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

10 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Again, he was older, Tzolis could've played a further 2 years in European competition before we can even start to compare him vs Emi when they both walked into the club.  Which is the entire point I'm making when people are choosing to flat-line write him off.

This is Tzolis at 18:

This is Tzolis at 19:

0:10, 0:28, 0:56, 1:31, 1:35, 2:24, 3:02 all examples of him pressing the ball, maybe you don't see it?

People asking what I see in the lad, just look what he does at 1:31, it's Buendia-esque to dispossess a player, and then play the ball at that angle and weight, turn and move up the field.  He's 19 here and showing this kind of maturity and calmness.

This is the only example of the raw player we bought in across an entire match, and it was on us to develop him further from this point.

Instead we'll watch him being pushed into the hands of a 5th manager, and people writing him off as done nothing, lazy, fat... whatever.  As I see it, we carried the responsibility for his progression, and he's gone backwards under our watch.

Others may disagree and put the blame solely at the players feet, fair enough, perhaps I have too much empathy for the individual.  But I don't consider it a bad quality if I have, even if the majority tell me otherwise.

I watched the second video and was there that game. I think you’ll see what you see. I see in a game with pretty weak opposition in a cup game a player that makes one good cross to Rupp and scores one decent goal. But I also see around 3-4 crosses to no one at all, one or two extra touches leading to loss of possession with free players central, a poor ball behind Sargent that I genuinely think JS does well to leave a trailing leg out miles behind to get a touch on and score. I mean to me (and I appreciate I’ll see what I want to see) they reel doesn’t standout whatsoever as being a player that is particularly special technically. Bang average but had a decent game for him I’d actually go with. Not at all good enough to warrant his opinion inclusion in a side needing battlers and grit. Wagner plays a press, if he doesn’t feel Tzolis presses well then Tzolis doesn’t press well. He got in the way a couple of times for sure, but none of that footage gives any kind of a clue about his overall movement, it just gives his touches. I’d like to see the other 88 minutes and what he is doing then

[S_81 816]

Tzolis is a dud. Someone must still be laughing at Webber. 9m for that!? We’ll take a serious loss on him eventually. Be lucky if anyone wants to buy. 

[Monty13 2,235]

6 hours ago, Kingston Yellow said:

That’s great insight. Thanks for that.

I wasn’t referring to literal position, I meant with the squad make up and tactics, but that was admittedly poorly written.

[BroadstairsR 2,185]

10 hours ago, norfolkngood said:

I am in the same boat I was 70/30 about Farke sacking, I know I was wrong should have been Webber 

I'm no Webber fan in fact I have long wished him on his bike. Several things have attributed to this, the man as much as the performance. 

In his defence though he was faced with the fact that he never had the necessary funds at his disposal sufficient to build a team of Premier League capability. The funds his did have were indeed grossly misused, but frankly he needed to be a miracle performer.

What other Premier League side in the game's history who found themselves in bottom place by Christmas has not made a single signing, a single improvement in the January window? We were unable even to attempt survival. Throw in the Dean Smith aspect and we were truly doomed. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[king canary 7,624]

8 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

I watched the second video and was there that game. I think you’ll see what you see. I see in a game with pretty weak opposition in a cup game a player that makes one good cross to Rupp and scores one decent goal. But I also see around 3-4 crosses to no one at all, one or two extra touches leading to loss of possession with free players central, a poor ball behind Sargent that I genuinely think JS does well to leave a trailing leg out miles behind to get a touch on and score. I mean to me (and I appreciate I’ll see what I want to see) they reel doesn’t standout whatsoever as being a player that is particularly special technically. Bang average but had a decent game for him I’d actually go with. Not at all good enough to warrant his opinion inclusion in a side needing battlers and grit. Wagner plays a press, if he doesn’t feel Tzolis presses well then Tzolis doesn’t press well. He got in the way a couple of times for sure, but none of that footage gives any kind of a clue about his overall movement, it just gives his touches. I’d like to see the other 88 minutes and what he is doing then

Yeah a few nice touches doesn't really cut it. Reminds me of the Stoke game where he played one excellent pass to Sargent and everyone fixated on that while ignoring he was generally ineffective outside of that. Every time I've seen him play he is almost entirely on the periphery of games.

[canarybubbles 1,924]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah a few nice touches doesn't really cut it. Reminds me of the Stoke game where he played one excellent pass to Sargent and everyone fixated on that while ignoring he was generally ineffective outside of that. Every time I've seen him play he is almost entirely on the periphery of games.

A similar criticism was made of players like Dowell and Vrançic - that they were often peripheral to games. Good teams need both players who can make a killer pass in a moment and players who run all day but are lacking in technical finesse. Yes, a few players such as Buendia could do both, but they're a rarity and generally well out of our price range.

[BroadstairsR 2,185]

He's gone. I maintained belief in his talent and worth for a long time and also believed that he had been hard done by. He's hardly set the world alight during pre-season despite a few good moments though. He made the effort, no complaints there, but he's just not a good fit.

We won't see the likes of him in the yellow again, hopefully the German league will suit him more, and we might be able to cut our losses, as losses there will surely be.

Oh, how we could do with that £9m now.

The Sarg is the only one of those three "big" signings, him, Tzolis and Rashica who has proven to be good for City. A good season of 20+ goals ahead and the 'Ginger Dirk Kuyt' might actually be worth more in the market than we paid out.

"The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" work out who is what.

Edited August 5, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[S_81 816]

2 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

I'm no Webber fan in fact I have long wished him on his bike. Several things have attributed to this, the man as much as the performance. 

In his defence though he was faced with the fact that he never had the necessary funds at his disposal sufficient to build a team of Premier League capability. The funds his did have were indeed grossly misused, but frankly he needed to be a miracle performer.

What other Premier League side in the game's history who found themselves in bottom place by Christmas has not made a single signing, a single improvement in the January window? We were unable even to attempt survival. Throw in the Dean Smith aspect and we were truly doomed. 

There can be defence of the budget he had to work with. But there can be no defence of how he’s blown what he had to work with. 

[BroadstairsR 2,185]

1 minute ago, S_81 said:

There can be defence of the budget he had to work with. But there can be no defence of how he’s blown what he had to work with. 

I said as much.

[S_81 816]

1 minute ago, BroadstairsR said:

I said as much.

At this point I feel that had Webber had more budget to work with he’d likely have just wasted more. 

[BroadstairsR 2,185]

3 minutes ago, S_81 said:

At this point I feel that had Webber had more budget to work with he’d likely have just wasted more. 

May be. Who knows? I feel that he's done quite well this Summer, with hardly a pot to pee in, but also think that the manager had a big say in the signings.

If we reap a few millions soon then I'll judge him on just how well he is able to use them.

Edited August 5, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[S_81 816]

Just now, BroadstairsR said:

May be. Who knows? I feel that he's done quite well this Summer, with hardly a pot to pee in, but also think that the manager had a big say in the signings.

If we reap a few millions then I'll judge him on just how well he is able to use them.

Yeah the business this summer has been good at the cost. Bar the sale of Mumba, which I still feel will prove to be criminal. Here’s hoping for better things this season.  

[ged in the onion bag 856]

Tzolis, 100% sad indictment of our club.   From recruitment, how they’ve handled him, failed to coach him and he’s never been given a run of games to settle.    The kids really young, unfair to blame him.    Wrong signing at the wrong time.    Not his fault, blame Webber.   

[kirku 1,334]

15 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Who knows? It's a waste of talent, and all of those people who say he has no talent should look at the Bournemouth game and ask themselves which players in the current Norwich team could do what Tzolis did in that game, even if it was against Bournemouth reserves blah blah blah. Mumba is another waste of talent; we dump him because he's not very tall. Would we have dumped Iniesta for the same reason? Sadly, I think under Webber and Wagner, the answer is yes. 

At the time I was broadly (60-40) in favour of the Farke sacking. As time has gone on, I'm becoming more and more convinced that I was wrong. The wrong man went and we have never recovered from that decision.

It was definitely Webber at fault for the shambles we've endured recently.

Mumba was decent in L1, comparisons with Iniesta are laughable. He's just the latest in a long line of players who we've seen very little of in a Norwich shirt that seemingly become the better the less the play.

He's taken Lungi's crown after people realised he was the bang average player he'd always been.

[hogesar 9,705]

2 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

A similar criticism was made of players like Dowell and Vrançic - that they were often peripheral to games. Good teams need both players who can make a killer pass in a moment and players who run all day but are lacking in technical finesse. Yes, a few players such as Buendia could do both, but they're a rarity and generally well out of our price range.

Dowell and Vrancic proved far more useful in a shorter space of time though.

As for using Bournemouth as a marker, Tzolis was up against, primarily, a League Two fullbacks.

Every other appearance there might be one decent thing he does but if the rest of the game is like playing with 10 men it doesn't equal out.

[ged in the onion bag 856]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Dowell and Vrancic proved far more useful in a shorter space of time though.

As for using Bournemouth as a marker, Tzolis was up against, primarily, a League Two fullbacks.

Every other appearance there might be one decent thing he does but if the rest of the game is like playing with 10 men it doesn't equal out.

We signed him for £9m we can’t afford!    We scouted him, our coaches weren’t able to get the skills out of him that our recruitment team apparently identified.   It’s the clubs fault!   He’s a young kid.    We failed from the moment we started scouting him.   Wrong player, definitely at the wrong time.    That’s on Webber ultimately.    
 

Confidence is huge in football.   He was still not given a run to see if he could settle at any stage.    The club made it clear he wasn’t rated, the way they dealt with him incl. playing others before him and bringing in loans.    

Edited August 5, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[ged in the onion bag 856]

3 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

He's gone. I maintained belief in his talent and worth for a long time and also believed that he had been hard done by. He's hardly set the world alight during pre-season despite a few good moments though. He made the effort, no complaints there, but he's just not a good fit.

We won't see the likes of him in the yellow again, hopefully the German league will suit him more, and we might be able to cut our losses, as losses there will surely be.

Oh, how we could do with that £9m now.

The Sarg is the only one of those three "big" signings, him, Tzolis and Rashica who has proven to be good for City. A good season of 20+ goals ahead and the 'Ginger Dirk Kuyt' might actually be worth more in the market than we paid out.

"The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" work out who is what.

Don’t even think Sarg has proved himself yet. Not impressed with him so far.   How Farke gets criticised for that season with those signings is beyond me.    Webber should have been hauled in after the Watford game and escorted from the building.   He’d lost his way.   
 

Hindsight! 

Edited August 5, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[norfolkngood 1,087]

6 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

I'm no Webber fan in fact I have long wished him on his bike. Several things have attributed to this, the man as much as the performance. 

In his defence though he was faced with the fact that he never had the necessary funds at his disposal sufficient to build a team of Premier League capability. The funds his did have were indeed grossly misused, but frankly he needed to be a miracle performer.

What other Premier League side in the game's history who found themselves in bottom place by Christmas has not made a single signing, a single improvement in the January window? We were unable even to attempt survival. Throw in the Dean Smith aspect and we were truly doomed. 

Indeed he had to be a Miracle worker i agree , something that he was when he first came in with Farke ,

the Pukki ,Emi ,krul signings were fantastic ,

buying players for roles and part of the jigsaw instead of the position only ,

all the Good work was thrown away with the big money he spent,

Rashica and Tzolis showed so little which is unbelievable for their fees ,

 

 

 

 

[ged in the onion bag 856]

29 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

Indeed he had to be a Miracle worker i agree , something that he was when he first came in with Farke ,

the Pukki ,Emi ,krul signings were fantastic ,

buying players for roles and part of the jigsaw instead of the position only ,

all the Good work was thrown away with the big money he spent,

Rashica and Tzolis showed so little which is unbelievable for their fees ,

 

 

 

 

Agree but you don’t gamble, be astute or keep the money in the bank.   You can’t sign inexperienced kids and players who have never played in English football and expect them to contribute in the EPL.   That’s basics.    Yet he did.    That’s desperation, that’s pressure and not sensible decision making.      Should have known Tzolis, Sargent, Rashica, Gilmour and Lees-Melou weren’t suitable options.   Demonstrated a lack of nous and wasted all the money.    Even Sargent has yet to prove his worth.    

[norfolkngood 1,087]

1 minute ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Agree but you don’t gamble, be astute or keep the money in the bank.   You can’t sign inexperienced kids and players who have never played in English football and expect them to contribute in the EPL.   That’s basics.    Yet he did.    That’s desperation, that’s pressure and not sensible decision making.      Should have known Tzolis, Sargent, Rashica, Gilmour and Lees-Melou weren’t suitable options.   Demonstrated a lack of nous and wasted all the money.    Even Sargent has yet to prove his worth.    

Totally Agree Sarge played really well start of last season in the CF role ,

you can not judge Sarge when he was pushed out wide at all ,

it is still a unknown if he can reproduce that early goalscoring form ,

i hope he does as that will be at least one good player from the Emi money ,

 

 

[hogesar 9,705]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

We signed him for £9m we can’t afford!    We scouted him, our coaches weren’t able to get the skills out of him that our recruitment team apparently identified.   It’s the clubs fault!   He’s a young kid.    We failed from the moment we started scouting him.   Wrong player, definitely at the wrong time.    That’s on Webber ultimately.    
 

Confidence is huge in football.   He was still not given a run to see if he could settle at any stage.    The club made it clear he wasn’t rated, the way they dealt with him incl. playing others before him and bringing in loans.    

To be fair agree with most of that. Webbers worst signing in my opinion.

[ged in the onion bag 856]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

To be fair agree with most of that. Webbers worst signing in my opinion.

Sadly, he’s still got competition for that accolade which brings everything back to Webber.     Sad for me to say that, as Webbers intentions and the initial direction was so promising.    

[Ken Hairy 3,774]

Tzolis loan confirmed by the club now