Mumba

[Google Bot 3,278]

7 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

You think Mumba being told he was going to be played in a different position inclined him to want to stay?

When he moved, I went on a few Plymouth forums to see what their thoughts were, and apparently they are building to go with fullbacks this season too, and as much as they love him and over the moon to have him at the club,  many were concerned about him defensively.

Thing is, this positional talk is far too overplayed for me.  We may not play wingbacks, but our full-backs are still attacking.  But obviously, there's not the same level of cover as you'd have with a system that focuses on utilising wingbacks.

So I don't think it matters all that really, I think it was more clear that with Fisher advancing Mumba was heading towards the back of the queue which isn't good for him.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Google Bot

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

4 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

You think Mumba being told he was going to be played in a different position inclined him to want to stay? He clearly wasn't valued, Wagner even suggested (non-league) Fisher's performances convinced him Mumba wasn't needed. OTOH Plymouth loved him; clearly he'd want to play for them instead. Cantwell also left under a cloud after being frozen out and packed off on loan.

Mumba left because he knew he'd be a starter at Plymouth.

Cantwell deliberately let his contract run down so that he could go on a free, he was given chances to get back into the first team under Farke & Smith but neither manager thought he deserved to. 

[horsefly 4,301]

59 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

Perhaps you're talking about Emi Buendia though. If you think a club selling its best player upon getting promoted to the PL is a conventional strategy then I would suggest perhaps it's you that doesn't know anything about football. It was a hugely risky approach and it clearly didn't work out (not least due to woeful recruitment which immediately wiped out all profit on poor quality replacements). 

 

28 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

It wouldn't be so bad if they managed to at least get a decent fee. e.g 1m for Cantwell can only be viewed as a massive failure. I suspect we'll also regret only getting 1m for Mumba. 

Two posts which show the incoherence of your view. In the first you criticise the sale of Buendia who was sold precisely at the moment of maximum financial return for the club (let's forget that he had made it clear he wouldn't play for City again anyway). In the second you criticise the sale of Cantwell for a small fee. The reason he went for a small fee is because the club held on their major talent at a time when they could have sold him for £20m+. So the club, according to you, is wrong for selling players in prime form and also wrong for not selling players in prime form. Seems some people are just determined to criticise any decision the club makes.

[The Bunny 310]

10 minutes ago, horsefly said:

 

Two posts which show the incoherence of your view. In the first you criticise the sale of Buendia who was sold precisely at the moment of maximum financial return for the club (let's forget that he had made it clear he wouldn't play for City again anyway). In the second you criticise the sale of Cantwell for a small fee. The reason he went for a small fee is because the club held on their major talent at a time when they could have sold him for £20m+. So the club, according to you, is wrong for selling players in prime form and also wrong for not selling players in prime form. Seems some people are just determined to criticise any decision the club makes.

It's not really that complicated. It's possible to hold the view that selling your best player upon getting promoted to the PL isn't a smart move, whilst also believing that selling talented players for peanuts is a bad idea. 

[horsefly 4,301]

1 hour ago, The Bunny said:

It's not really that complicated. It's possible to hold the view that selling your best player upon getting promoted to the PL isn't a smart move, whilst also believing that selling talented players for peanuts is a bad idea. 

Not even close to answering your contradictory views. 

[norfolkngood 1,087]

i am sure if Wagner thinks he can turn placheta into a LB ,

i am sure the young player of the season for Lg1 who is much younger could be better given time and coaching

[The Bunny 310]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

Not even close to answering your contradictory views. 

So, just to be clear, you think that it's contradictory to hold the view that selling your best player upon getting promoted is a bad idea whilst also holding the view that selling completely different talented players for peanuts in completely different circumstances is also a bad idea?

[Barham Blitz 653]

5 hours ago, The Bunny said:

It's not really that complicated. It's possible to hold the view that selling your best player upon getting promoted to the PL isn't a smart move, whilst also believing that selling talented players for peanuts is a bad idea. 

Also (and happy to be corrected here) I'm not sure that we ever received any worthwhile bids for Cantwell - beyond Bournemouth not taking up a reported option to buy after the loan - whereas we quite evidently did for Buendia (regardless of the rights and wrongs of actually selling him...)

[The Bunny 310]

1 hour ago, Barham Blitz said:

Also (and happy to be corrected here) I'm not sure that we ever received any worthwhile bids for Cantwell - beyond Bournemouth not taking up a reported option to buy after the loan - whereas we quite evidently did for Buendia (regardless of the rights and wrongs of actually selling him...)

I'll freely admit that at the point by the point we sold Cantwell, the club didn't have a lot of options. They let it get to that point first though. The fact that we sold a player formerly valued (albeit optimistically) at 30m for 1m has got to go down as a massive failure.

[BSEYELLOW 36]

12 hours ago, The Bunny said:

You think Mumba being told he was going to be played in a different position inclined him to want to stay? He clearly wasn't valued, Wagner even suggested (non-league) Fisher's performances convinced him Mumba wasn't needed. OTOH Plymouth loved him; clearly he'd want to play for them instead. Cantwell also left under a cloud after being frozen out and packed off on loan.

What you seem to not be grasping with regard to Mumba is that he plays in a position we do not play with.  So he would have had 2 choices if staying with us.  Play in a position that is not a wing back, or don't play at all.  He's not remotely good enough to abandon Wagner's plans and come up with a new formation just to accommodate him.

That isn't not valuing him, that is realisation that he is not what we need and that him sitting on the bench will do little for us and would be detrimental to a young player's career.  His loan club played with wing backs, they wanted to buy him, he wanted to go, we dont need him, only 1 outcome.  As mentioned above, this shows that as a club we will look at what is best for young players, whether than be loaning them out, playing them, selling them if we cannot make good use of them, but overall progressing their career.  

The treatment/development of young players is something that no one can say we have done badly during SWs tenure, Cantwell excluded but we do not know the full story.

[? 20]

15 minutes ago, BSEYELLOW said:

What you seem to not be grasping with regard to Mumba is that he plays in a position we do not play with.  So he would have had 2 choices if staying with us.  Play in a position that is not a wing back, or don't play at all.  He's not remotely good enough to abandon Wagner's plans and come up with a new formation just to accommodate him.

I think the major point of disagreement here - and why this post has run to so many pages - is your final statement in that first, quoted paragraph. There's an awful lot of fans who see things very differently and believe that selling an exciting young prospect solely because a manager with a worse record than Dean Smith doesn't rate him, is entirely the wrong decision.

Personally, if you're giving me the choice of either Wagner or Mumba being at the club for the start of this season, I'm picking the latter. I'll take the exciting player who's just won Young Player of the Season in League One, over the manager who oversaw 1 win in 11 at the end of last year, without a home goal since February.

[Midlands Yellow 3,995]

46 minutes ago, ? said:

I think the major point of disagreement here - and why this post has run to so many pages - is your final statement in that first, quoted paragraph. There's an awful lot of fans who see things very differently and believe that selling an exciting young prospect solely because a manager with a worse record than Dean Smith doesn't rate him, is entirely the wrong decision.

Personally, if you're giving me the choice of either Wagner or Mumba being at the club for the start of this season, I'm picking the latter. I'll take the exciting player who's just won Young Player of the Season in League One, over the manager who oversaw 1 win in 11 at the end of last year, without a home goal since February.

Mumba player-manager? 

[? 20]

Just now, Midlands Yellow said:

Mumba player-manager? 

Obviously not.

Though, I'm not sure he'd do a worse job.

[BSEYELLOW 36]

1 hour ago, ? said:

I think the major point of disagreement here - and why this post has run to so many pages - is your final statement in that first, quoted paragraph. There's an awful lot of fans who see things very differently and believe that selling an exciting young prospect solely because a manager with a worse record than Dean Smith doesn't rate him, is entirely the wrong decision.

Personally, if you're giving me the choice of either Wagner or Mumba being at the club for the start of this season, I'm picking the latter. I'll take the exciting player who's just won Young Player of the Season in League One, over the manager who oversaw 1 win in 11 at the end of last year, without a home goal since February.

Sure, but whether people hold that opinion or not, it needs to be realised that Wagner came into the club at a bad tim, inheriting an unfit squad, playing poorly, lacking confidence.  He was always going to get this summer to prepare for a proper crack at things.

Holding onto young players that dont fit a system, that want to leave to further their careers will just make us a less attractive proposition to other youngsters.  Sure he had a decent season, but i think his ability has been a little inflated as always seems to happen.  

[horsefly 4,301]

On 28/07/2023 at 00:47, The Bunny said:

So, just to be clear, you think that it's contradictory to hold the view that selling your best player upon getting promoted is a bad idea whilst also holding the view that selling completely different talented players for peanuts in completely different circumstances is also a bad idea?

Are you just pretending to be ignorant or is it genuine? Buendia had made it very clear he wanted a move, and had reportedly said he would not play another game for the club (It was in fact remarkable that Webber and co had persuaded him to play another season in the Championship). They then sold him at the height of his value for an enormous amount of cash. In the case of Cantwell they held on to a high-value player in exactly the way you wanted the club to hold on to Buendia. Subsequent events resulted in his value dropping significantly, but now you want to criticise them for selling a talented player for "peanuts" whose contract was nearly up. I'm afraid you don't get to have it both ways.

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

The reason Cantwell's value fell was Cantwell, the club gave him opportunities to get back into the first team but he didn't take them.

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Are you just pretending to be ignorant or is it genuine? Buendia had made it very clear he wanted a move, and had reportedly said he would not play another game for the club (It was in fact remarkable that Webber and co had persuaded him to play another season in the Championship). They then sold him at the height of his value for an enormous amount of cash. In the case of Cantwell they held on to a high-value player in exactly the way you wanted the club to hold on to Buendia. Subsequent events resulted in his value dropping significantly, but now you want to criticise them for selling a talented player for "peanuts" whose contract was nearly up. I'm afraid you don't get to have it both ways.

Yes, the club is damned if it does and damned if it doesn’t.  Those who want to moan seem to be able to use both sticks to beat the club with, not realising that they are trying to have it both ways.

[The Bunny 310]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

Are you just pretending to be ignorant or is it genuine? Buendia had made it very clear he wanted a move, and had reportedly said he would not play another game for the club (It was in fact remarkable that Webber and co had persuaded him to play another season in the Championship). They then sold him at the height of his value for an enormous amount of cash. In the case of Cantwell they held on to a high-value player in exactly the way you wanted the club to hold on to Buendia. Subsequent events resulted in his value dropping significantly, but now you want to criticise them for selling a talented player for "peanuts" whose contract was nearly up. I'm afraid you don't get to have it both ways.

Again, totally different situations. Buendia was a critical player in that promoted team, literally our best player by a country mile, and I and many others recognised what a monumental act of self-harm selling him was (and history would support that view). Cantwell was not at that level. If we'd sold Cantwell for 25m during that close-season in order to strengthen, I wouldn't have had a problem with that (in fact I even suggested that at the time). 

Buendia is in fact an excellent example of the club undervaluing players. SW publicly suggested at the time that our top players were easily replaceable. The subsequent recruitment from the proceeds of the Buendia sale demonstrated very clearly why that assumption was wrong. SW thought everything he touched turned to gold; more often it turned into Milot Rashica. 

I mean it's not like it's that complicated. If you think my argument boils down to "sell good players cheap=bad" and "sell good players expensive=bad" then sure, fill your boots. Or you could try debating what I'm actually saying instead. 

The Cantwell situation was complicated and definitely wasn't helped by the player's attitude. I do think the club could have done better there, but I suspect we'll never know the full ins and outs of the situation. SW publicly and unnecessarily criticising the player probably didn't help though. 

The Mumba situation is much more clear cut. Here is an exciting young talent who could play in a variety of different positions and rather than trying to accommodate him in the team, the club just sold him for a token amount. 

[The Bunny 310]

In other news, the Plymouth boss is suggesting Mumba could play midfield next season. It's like they recognise they have a talented player and they're trying to accommodate him. That's quite a contrast from "you will play left back". https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66327832

Hardly surprising that he wanted to go back to Plymouth. 

Wagner will be gone by Christmas but we'll be regretting selling Mumba a lot longer than that. 

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

6 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

In other news, the Plymouth boss is suggesting Mumba could play midfield next season. It's like they recognise they have a talented player and they're trying to accommodate him. That's quite a contrast from "you will play left back". https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66327832

Hardly surprising that he wanted to go back to Plymouth. 

Wagner will be gone by Christmas but we'll be regretting selling Mumba a lot longer than that. 

Good for Plymouth.  

[horsefly 4,301]

5 hours ago, The Bunny said:

In other news, the Plymouth boss is suggesting Mumba could play midfield next season. It's like they recognise they have a talented player and they're trying to accommodate him. That's quite a contrast from "you will play left back". https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66327832

Hardly surprising that he wanted to go back to Plymouth. 

Wagner will be gone by Christmas but we'll be regretting selling Mumba a lot longer than that. 

 

5 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

Good for Plymouth.  

Why can't we be Plymouth? 🤣

[hogesar 9,676]

5 hours ago, The Bunny said:

In other news, the Plymouth boss is suggesting Mumba could play midfield next season. It's like they recognise they have a talented player and they're trying to accommodate him. That's quite a contrast from "you will play left back". https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66327832

Hardly surprising that he wanted to go back to Plymouth. 

Wagner will be gone by Christmas but we'll be regretting selling Mumba a lot longer than that. 

Having watched us again today I dont see where Mumba gets regular game time. Of course at Plymouth who have a significantly weaker squad it makes more sense to change to accommodate.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Essentially, Fisher's emergence was what did for Mumba as Wagner's basically said that in a PinkUn piece. Mumba's too small for our midfield - you need a pair of proper box-to-box sorts for that. Rowe seems more explosive than Mumba on a wing whilst also being a promising youngster, and the likes of Fassnacht and Sainz have not been brought to be second-string.