OT - The Ashes

[Aggy 766]

31 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Not sure, as a batter then he's had 2 good innings, but he's still just a chatacture of himself behind the stumps. I'd like to see a place for both of them.

If it hadn’t been an ashes series against probably the best bowling attack in the world, and if Stokes had been fit to bowl more, I wouldn’t have been surprised to see both, especially after the first couple of tests and Bairstow struggling behind the stumps. The balance of the squad at the moment though (and the fact Foakes has only got real test scores on batsmen friendly pitches against attacks like Sri Lanka) I don’t see how you do fit both in at the moment.

Choosing one of the two, they clearly rate Bairstow’s keeping more than Foakes’ batting. 

There’s been a lot of focus on Bairstow’s keeping which is fair enough, but there have been a lot of drops from a lot of players. The catching has been really poor for the majority of the series. Something to work on you’d think. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Aggy

[Ken Hairy 3,804]

2 minutes ago, Aggy said:

If it hadn’t been an ashes series against probably the best bowling attack in the world, and if Stokes had been fit to bowl more, I wouldn’t have been surprised to see both, especially after the first couple of tests and Bairstow struggling behind the stumps. The balance of the squad at the moment though (and the fact Foakes has only got real test scores on batsmen friendly pitches against attacks like Sri Lanka) I don’t see how you do fit both in at the moment.

Choosing one of the two, they clearly rate Bairstow’s keeping more than Foakes’ batting. 

There’s been a lot of focus on Bairstow’s keeping which is fair enough, but there have been a lot of drops from a lot of players. The catching has been really poor for the majority of the series. Something to work on you’d think. 

Yeah I don't disagree with that at all, the obvious question if you play both is who do you drop? Not sure I have the answer, unless we sacrifice a bowler and drop Anderson, who despite his comments the other night I sadly think it's time for him to retire.

[Branston Pickle 3,742]

6 minutes ago, Aggy said:

If it hadn’t been an ashes series against probably the best bowling attack in the world, and if Stokes had been fit to bowl more, I wouldn’t have been surprised to see both, especially after the first couple of tests and Bairstow struggling behind the stumps. The balance of the squad at the moment though (and the fact Foakes has only got real test scores on batsmen friendly pitches against attacks like Sri Lanka) I don’t see how you do fit both in at the moment.

Choosing one of the two, they clearly rate Bairstow’s keeping more than Foakes’ batting. 

There’s been a lot of focus on Bairstow’s keeping which is fair enough, but there have been a lot of drops from a lot of players. The catching has been really poor for the majority of the series. Something to work on you’d think. 

It is what it is. The biggest issue for me is that in Stokes we have an all rounder who can’t bowl, which is definitely unbalancing the side.

Talking of balance, the lack of a spinner behind Leach is very concerning - I’d have definitely picked Jacks ahead of Ali.

[canarydan23 4,135]

23 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Not in any way shape or form as you’re answering the wrong question, which is whether he should be keeper (no) not whether he is worth a place in the side as batsman (yes).  He is still in a huge negative in terms of runs scored vs runs conceded. 
 

He had a bad couple of tests, but so might Foakes, with much, much less big game experience.

Who would you have dropped for Foakes?

[Aggy 766]

25 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Yeah I don't disagree with that at all, the obvious question if you play both is who do you drop? Not sure I have the answer, unless we sacrifice a bowler and drop Anderson, who despite his comments the other night I sadly think it's time for him to retire.

In this test / series it would probably have been an easier decision in many ways given Pope and Leach’s injuries - Woakes drops out, Foakes at 8, Bairstow and Ali at 7 and 3. That assumes Stokes was fit to pick up Woakes’ share of the pace bowling though.

When everyone’s fit it’s tough to see how you would fit both in. I wonder if Foakes was younger whether he’d be given more chances over the next few years with an eye to Bairstow being 34 later this year… he’s only a few years younger than Bairstow though so probably not seen as the long term “replacement”. My guess is he’ll get a few tests against weaker opponents or in places with batsmen friendly tracks, but in the big games Bairstow will continue to be picked over him and there won’t be enough room for both.

 

Edit: agree on Anderson too. Always been able to do it in England and has struggled in terms of getting wickets this time round. Hasn’t bowled badly as such but you do wonder how long he’s got left now unfortunately… 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Aggy

[overthebordercanary 143]

Just now, canarydan23 said:

He had a bad couple of tests, but so might Foakes, with much, much less big game experience.

Who would you have dropped for Foakes?

When Pope got injured, move Bairstow to 3 and Foakes in at 7.

[dylanisabaddog 5,061]

Just now, canarydan23 said:

He had a bad couple of tests, but so might Foakes, with much, much less big game experience.

Who would you have dropped for Foakes?

It's difficult. They just showed a stat saying that Bairstow has averaged over 60 since Stokes became captain. The big issues at the moment are that Stokes can't bowl and Anderson has reached the end. Oh for a fit Jofra Archer

[Branston Pickle 3,742]

1 minute ago, overthebordercanary said:

When Pope got injured, move Bairstow to 3 and Foakes in at 7.

Pretty much.  As Aggy said, the main issue is that we have an unbalanced side with an all rounder who can’t bowl. And also the spin options are iffy - I reckon get these sorted and we’re there.

[Gordon Bennett 794]

4 minutes ago, overthebordercanary said:

When Pope got injured, move Bairstow to 3 and Foakes in at 7.

Thing is Bairstow is in the side because of the damage he can do at 7.

[king canary 7,704]

4 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Agree with you pretty much on all things NCFC - but couldn’t be further from agreeing with this!

 

4 hours ago, hogesar said:

No way. Australia have got pretty much every piece of luck going this series alongside borderline cheating.

Just to be clear, I also don't think it would be unlucky for Australia if it finishes 2-2 or had finished 3-2 to us. Its largely been a tight series decided on fine margins. Weirdly the most one sided test is the only one without a result.

I disagree on the luck part. The biggest piece of bad luck this series has been Australia losing Nathan Lyon, a world class spinner midway through the first test, thus playing half a match a bowler down and the rest of the series without a key player.

Stuff about conditions and catching isn't luck in my view. We won every single toss until this test- if we were bowling or batting in non ideal conditions in the first couple of days it's because we chose to.

 

[Branston Pickle 3,742]

Just now, Gordon Bennett said:

Thing is Bairstow is in the side because of the damage he can do at 7.

Who knows - if we tie the series I guess you say it went ok, if we lose 3-1 then imo we didn’t get it right!

I was wondering if we would declare this evening when we got +350….

[Canary Wundaboy 1,360]

I reckon they’re going to try and bat the day out or lose all the wickets, whichever comes first.

[Gordon Bennett 794]

Whatever happens for the rest of the innings the Aussies aren't chasing that down.

[TheGunnShow 6,094]

Question from someone who's last held a bat as a kid...

If a bowler whacked me with the ball, then I decided on the next delivery to absolutely smash it back at him as hard as I could in retaliation, would I get some kind of reprimand from the umpire?

[Ken Hairy 3,804]

That umpire is utterly dreadful

[canarydan23 4,135]

54 minutes ago, king canary said:

Stuff about conditions and catching isn't luck in my view. We won every single toss until this test- if we were bowling or batting in non ideal conditions in the first couple of days it's because we chose to.

So guessing English weather is a skill we expert our captain to have? Meteorology lessons in training? Ridiculous. 

And Australia had their best spinner for a test and a half. That's a test and a half more than we had our best spinner for.

We're also without Archer, who is arguably our best bowler when fit and on form.

Edited July 29, 2023 by canarydan23

[canarydan23 4,135]

6 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

That umpire is utterly dreadful

Absolutely awful. TMO wouldn't have even needed slow motion to overturn some of them.

[canarydan23 4,135]

49 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Pretty much.  As Aggy said, the main issue is that we have an unbalanced side with an all rounder who can’t bowl. And also the spin options are iffy - I reckon get these sorted and we’re there.

@overthebordercanary Really? You do realise that would have meant not bringing in one of Wood or Woakes?

And that we basically won both tests but for the rain with the selection decisions post Pope's injury?

Edited July 29, 2023 by canarydan23

[Peregrine Shorts 347]

Broad has just announced his retirement from the end of the series

[Ken Hairy 3,804]

Just now, Peregrine Shorts said:

Broad has just announced his retirement from the end of the series

Interesting he's decided to do it at 37 whilst still taking wickets, and fair play to him. I do worry about Anderson going on for far too long

[king canary 7,704]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

And Australia had their best spinner for a test and a half. That's a test and a half more than we had our best spinner for

Jack Leach is not on the same plain as Nathan Lyon though.

[canarydan23 4,135]

56 minutes ago, king canary said:

Jack Leach is not on the same plain as Nathan Lyon though.

Your best spinner is your best spinner. And we had to drag someone out of retirement to replace our best spinner. Like you said, Australia have missed a key player. That he's better than Leach doesn't make him any less of a key player for England. Besides, Australia could call up someone who is quite likely to have a better career than Lyon, someone who actually has a considerably better average than Lyon in test and first class cricket, albeit against a much, much smaller data sample.

You're not telling me that Australia are hard done by with injuries because Lyon got injured in the second test. Not when we didn't have any of our 90mph bowlers available for selection at all until the third test, and then only one of them. And our talisman all-rounder has been reduced to a specialist batsman role just to an injury. And our spinner has had to cope with blisters, meaning he couldn't bowl a single ball in the second test and might not be able to tomorrow due to a groin injury.

Whilst you're probably right that losing Lyon was the biggest piece of single bad luck on the injury front, collectively the bad fortune Australia have experienced is inexplicably tiny compared to what England have been dealt.

[BroadstairsR 2,227]

I am a bit disappointed with the total. I thought we should have aimed for over 400 to put the Aussies totally out of sight. Why some players, Woakes and Wood in this case thought that every ball should be hit for a boundary and therefore virtually gave their wickets away puzzled me. The tail could have easily taken us beyond that 400 mark. All in all the England batting as a whole became a bit reckless after we got that 300 lead. Not bazball, recklessness.

Perhaps the two left will be more careful with their choice of shots and eke out another twenty or so.

Of course, we are still favourites, and it's a tall order for the Aussies, but they have two days to get it and Smith in their batting line up.

Edited July 30, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[Gordon Bennett 794]

The current lead is over a hundred more than the highest successful test run chase at the Oval and in addition there have only ever been two higher unsuccessful fourth innings totals there in tests. Also it looks like the rain will wipe out a fair bit of play today.

Something over 400 would have been nice for the psychological factor but England have plenty.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Gordon Bennett

[BroadstairsR 2,227]

40 minutes ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Th current lead is over a hundred more than the highest successful test run chase at the Oval and in addition there have only ever been two higher unsuccessful fourth innings totals there in tests. Also it looks like the rain will wipe out a fair bit of play today.

Something over 400 would have been nice for the psychological factor but England have plenty.

All true, but even Atherton stated that we left a small light when we could have closed the door.

(England scored 378 against India in 2022 in a run chase.)

Edited July 30, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[Gordon Bennett 794]

1 minute ago, BroadstairsR said:

All true, but even Atherton stated that we left a small light when we could have closed the door.

Absolutely. But that's the trade off by playing that way, it's frustrating when these mini collapses come along but 'Bazball' (hate the phrase) means we score at 5-6 an over and put big pressure on the opposition. Love the way we play and the transformation over the last 18 months has been incredible but it certainly could be fine tuned.

[BroadstairsR 2,227]

1 minute ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Absolutely. But that's the trade off by playing that way, it's frustrating when these mini collapses come along but 'Bazball' (hate the phrase) means we score at 5-6 an over and put big pressure on the opposition. Love the way we play and the transformation over the last 18 months has been incredible but it certainly could be fine tuned.

Yes, but If England can score that amount in just one day this Aussie batting line-up can surely do it with two (or whatever the best part of two is permitted by the weather.) We may even be relying on Joe Root as our front line spinner.

I'll bet the Australians haven't given up. 

[TheGunnShow 6,094]

13 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Question from someone who's last held a bat as a kid...

If a bowler whacked me with the ball, then I decided on the next delivery to absolutely smash it back at him as hard as I could in retaliation, would I get some kind of reprimand from the umpire?

Bumping up as still hoping for an answer, please! 🙂

[BroadstairsR 2,227]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Bumping up as still hoping for an answer, please! 🙂

The bowler would probably catch it 😉

[TheGunnShow 6,094]

Just now, BroadstairsR said:

The bowler would probably catch it 😉

Even if you decided to absolutely lacerate it?