Goodbye Kieran Dowell..

[dylanisabaddog 4,987]

10 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

Well yes the ideal situation would be Dowell stays fit all season and stays. But his custard cream legs fairly saw to that 😅 

In fairness, we don't know how fast you can run.

I've missed a lot of buses

[Robert N. LiM 4,492]

7 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

I always liked Dowell ... I always felt that he would be better suited more centrally as a #10

A Dowell in the hole. No-brainer, really.

[Robert N. LiM 4,492]

7 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

Both on song (or in Cantwell's case the wanting to be here version of a couple of years ago) would walk into our current starting XI. 

is the correct answer

[Newtopia 519]

Dowell is a good player and he will need replacing - good luck to him

[Capt. Pants 4,277]

With Pukki now history we don't need those killer forward passes as neither Sargent or Idah have the ability to control them.

I suspect we'll see a more pragmatic direct NCFC next season.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

Good luck woody

[sgncfc 1,258]

10 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

is the correct answer

So if that were true, surely both would have started more games? Dowell in particular - he started 32 games for us in 3 seasons. And in at least half of those he was completely anonymous. He will do better in Scotland where the standard is not as high, but he is nowhere near good enough to be a fixture in a successful Championship or EPL team.

[sgncfc 1,258]

18 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

Both on song (or in Cantwell's case the wanting to be here version of a couple of years ago) would walk into our current starting XI.  Would you really want any two of Onel, Sargent, Tzolis or Marquinos starting ahead of either of them ?  Maybe you would - it's a game of opinions.  I wouldn't.

Well Marquinos isn't our player anymore so not sure why him. But I'd much rather have Onel and Sara than Dowell and Cantwell, yes. Mainly because they both give a s*1t.

[Chip20 69]

Anybody else, after reading the thread title, find themselves humming "Candle in the Wind"? 

No? 

Just me? 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

On 24/05/2023 at 18:24, cambridgeshire canary said:

 

For some reason I read the title of this thread like the start of Candle in the wind by Elton John 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

6 minutes ago, Chip20 said:

Anybody else, after reading the thread title, find themselves humming "Candle in the Wind"? 

No? 

Just me? 

I literally just said the same thing 😂

[Barham Blitz 661]

2 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Well Marquinos isn't our player anymore so not sure why him. But I'd much rather have Onel and Sara than Dowell and Cantwell, yes. Mainly because they both give a s*1t.

I didn't mention Sara because he hasn't played the same role as either - and I suggested Marquinos because he was the player who replaced Dowell when he was injured given that you used the past tense in describing them as players who couldn't get into a championship team 

But opinions and all that.  Happy to agree to disagree on this one.

[Chip20 69]

3 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

I literally just said the same thing 😂

Ha! Beat me to it. Young whippersnapper! 

[TheGunnShow 6,004]

13 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

With Pukki now history we don't need those killer forward passes as neither Sargent or Idah have the ability to control them.

I suspect we'll see a more pragmatic direct NCFC next season.

Exactly. It's coming down the wings next season with an attacking midfielder just to vary the focus a bit.

[Petriix 2,853]

13 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

With Pukki now history we don't need those killer forward passes as neither Sargent or Idah have the ability to control them.

I suspect we'll see a more pragmatic direct NCFC next season.

Isn't that what we've been trying (and spectacularly failing at) for two years now?

I'm not sure how this miraculous 'direct' football is supposed to differ from the periods of lumping the ball long for Idah and Sargent to chase into the channels or why it might suddenly work this time.

It's pretty obvious to me that, with the departures of Cantwell, Pukki and Dowell, we're looking at a vastly less skillful NCFC next season. Let's not forget that they were 3 of our first choice attacking 4 in our best Championship season ever. People like to pretend it was all Buendia but we've now shipped out the rest of them too and we're significantly worse as a result. 

3 hours ago, sgncfc said:

But I'd much rather have Onel and Sara than Dowell and Cantwell, yes. Mainly because they both give a s*1t.

Whereas I'd much rather have Sara, Cantwell and Dowell in attacking midfield with Onel nowhere near the first team, based on ability.

Unless we make some seriously good signings, I think we're going to have a far worse season next year. 

[Danke bitte 967]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

Unless we make some seriously good signings, I think we're going to have a far worse season next year.

I don’t agree. And you’ve “liked” one of my posts from a previous thread about what I’m about to reiterate…

What we’re hoping for is an elixir, a magic potion to our attacking output. It’s easy to pretentiously outline this as some kind of “weapon” blah… 

I don’t think it’s a focal point, I think goals or chances come from across the team. An easy assertion?

But my post from a few days ago highlighted Barnes as a force up top to manufacture opportunities both for defensive culpability equally to assist positive goal scoring opportunities by being a source of strength. Something we’ve severely lacked for 2 seasons. 

We all cry for leaders right? And I’d concur, we’ve lost our way where we haven’t got the seasoned pros to actually step up to the plate to push and assist our forward attack whilst, when required to fall back when the need arises, to defend. It’s not that hard. It comes down to egos and patience. 

Im more than willing to read your counter to my high level opinion, I do feel your position is one of overt negativity though. especially when we have a coach blessed with a squad in a purgatory of neither Smith or Farke based football. 

[Petriix 2,853]

18 hours ago, Danke bitte said:

Im more than willing to read your counter to my high level opinion, I do feel your position is one of overt negativity though. especially when we have a coach blessed with a squad in a purgatory of neither Smith or Farke based football. 

Ok, I'll give it a go... 

When you look at our final position: mid-table, it tells part of a story which is easy to accept. We're in transition, clearing out the old system, building something new. But I read a different story about a gambling addict sporting director, chasing his losses all the way to bankruptcy.

Let's forget Dean Smith. Wagner took over a team that had just dropped outside the top 6 and initially put together some incredible performances by taking the style back towards the Farkeball, heavily contingent on the remnants of that Farke squad in Pukki, Dowell, McLean. Goals, but wide open.

Then Dowell got injured, Pukki [fell] out of favour, goals dried up, everything fell apart. One win in the last 10 games, 7 points, relegation form. We're not currently a mid-table Championship club, we're in free fall.

We won 17 games last season but all but four came in two clusters: Smith won 7 out of 8 then just 3 of his last 13; Wagner won 6 out of 9 then 1 out of 11.

I agree that goals come from the team rather than just one or two weapons. I never thought that Buendia was everything, it was as much about Cantwell, Dowell, Vrancic, Stiepermann etc (and obviously Pukki). Without any of them, however, we are lacking the ability to cut through teams. 

Sara is good. I think he's a better number 10 than 8 but he's got the quality we need. McLean is probably good enough for a top Championship side, but has some limitations. Otherwise our midfield is extremely lacking in both attack and defence. None of Nunez, Hernandez and Tzolis have the required combination of attributes to be a wide midfielder in a balanced side. No one we have is close to being that elusive CDM, a solid number 6 with the ability to receive and pass the ball under pressure when in possession or break up play and snuff out the danger when without the ball.

So, right now we're rebuilding from being a bottom 3 Championship club (on form) who just lost to a relegated side and couldn't compete with the mid-table teams let alone the top 6. There's a lot to do to stop the rot before we can really think about competing for promotion.

The biggest problem for me is that (what I saw as) the better players have all gone while the weaker ones like Onel and Idah have been given new contracts. I'll accept the accusation of being overly negative. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than get my hopes up only to be disappointed.

I'm reasonably happy with half our squad. I just don't see us making the quality of signings needed to sort out the issues and I don't think we have the financial clout to replace the likes of Dowell and Cantwell with players of similar ability. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Petriix

[The Bunny 314]

We've definitely lost some of the more technically capable attacking players and we're now reliant on Webber's scattergun recruitment to replace them. The odds are not good that the squad will be stronger at the end of it. 

[Barham Blitz 661]

9 hours ago, Petriix said:

we're in free fall.

We won 17 games last season but all but four came in two clusters: Smith won 7 out of 8 then just 3 of his last 13; Wagner won 6 out of 9 then 1 out of 11.

It is particularly alarming when you set it out like that, particularly when you also consider how ropey we were for much of that Smith streak.

Also alarming is how the form has fallen of a cliff under Wagner.  Injuries obviously played some part but I also wonder if opposition teams worked us out quite quickly after the initial change in approach.

[Danke bitte 967]

10 hours ago, Petriix said:

Ok, I'll give it a go... 

When you look at our final position: mid-table, it tells part of a story which is easy to accept. We're in transition, clearing out the old system, building something new. But I read a different story about a gambling addict sporting director, chasing his losses all the way to bankruptcy.

Let's forget Dean Smith. Wagner took over a team that had just dropped outside the top 6 and initially put together some incredible performances by taking the style back towards the Farkeball, heavily contingent on the remnants of that Farke squad in Pukki, Dowell, McLean. Goals, but wide open.

Then Dowell got injured, Pukki out of favour, goals dried up, everything fell apart. One win in the last 10 games, 7 points, relegation form. We're not currently a mid-table Championship club, we're in free fall.

We won 17 games last season but all but four came in two clusters: Smith won 7 out of 8 then just 3 of his last 13; Wagner won 6 out of 9 then 1 out of 11.

I agree that goals come from the team rather than just one or two weapons. I never thought that Buendia was everything, it was as much about Cantwell, Dowell, Vrancic, Stiepermann etc (and obviously Pukki). Without any of them, however, we are lacking the ability to cut through teams. 

Sara is good. I think he's a better number 10 than 8 but he's got the quality we need. McLean is probably good enough for a top Championship side, but has some limitations. Otherwise our midfield is extremely lacking in both attack and defence. None of Nunez, Hernandez and Tzolis have the required combination of attributes to be a wide midfielder in a balanced side. No one we have is close to being that elusive CDM, a solid number 6 with the ability to receive and pass the ball under pressure when in possession or break up play and snuff out the danger when without the ball.

So, right now we're rebuilding from being a bottom 3 Championship club (on form) who just lost to a relegated side and couldn't compete with the mid-table teams let alone the top 6. There a lot to do to stop the rot before we can really think about competing for promotion.

The biggest problem for me is that (what I saw as) the better players have all gone while the weaker ones like Onel and Idah have been given new contracts. I'll accept the accusation of being overly negative. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than get my hopes up only to be disappointed.

I'm reasonably happy with half our squad. I just don't see us making the quality of signings needed to sort out the issues and I don't think we have the financial clout to replace the likes of Dowell and Cantwell with players of similar ability. 

I’ll give you a proper response when I’ve got 5 mins :  )

[Robert N. LiM 4,492]

17 hours ago, sgncfc said:

So if that were true, surely both would have started more games? Dowell in particular - he started 32 games for us in 3 seasons. And in at least half of those he was completely anonymous. He will do better in Scotland where the standard is not as high, but he is nowhere near good enough to be a fixture in a successful Championship or EPL team.

Well, Dowell's injuries and whatever it was that was going on with Todd were the main reasons they missed so many games, rather than them not being good enough. Dowell's injury record is the main reason I'm not completely gutted that he's leaving.

Clearly Dowell was not great defensively, so it's probably fair to say he wasn't every going to be good enough for us in the PL. But in the Championship, where you'd hope we'd be dominating more games, he had the knack of scoring goals and creating chances for others. As I said, I'll be pleased if anyone we sign this summer can do either of those things as well.

It's probably worth saying that I'm basing much of my liking of Dowell on having watched on TV (and some games as highlights). I think he's a real 'highlights player'. What I mean by that is that if you watch the highlights of our games, he's usually involved in most of our best attacking moments, even in games when people who've been there live at the stadium thought he had a shocker. I think there are two ways of reading this: one is that my view of him is biased because I've seen more of his attacking strengths than his defensive weaknesses. The other is that despite those weaknesses, he's worth finding a place for in the team because he makes things happen. I bet his personal xG and xA stats are pretty decent, and I doubt his powder-puff defending often led to chances/goals against. It was a real shame that he got injured just as Wagner had managed to find a role for him (and improve the defensive side of his game)

For me, when Todd, KD and Emi were playing behind Pukki, we probably played our best stuff since the 90s (most obviously in that astonishing win over Huddersfield). All four had great vision and imagination, and none of them are here any more. I just think it's a shame.

[hogesar 9,745]

I liked Dowell. I thought he probably looked at his best as an overall player in those early games under Wagner. Worked hard, counter-pressed, linked up play and then got himself into goal scoring positions too. 

So he's a definitely a miss. But I don't buy that we're going for "no-skill" footballers. I'm pleased if we go for a more energetic, counter-pressing side. You've seen us try to do it under Wagner particularly in the last few games where we didn't have the physical attributes to make it effective - teams got through the press and we were horribly exposed. 

I do think its a shift away from Farkeball but I don't think any of us were bored watching a Lambert team play, for example. Now, I don't think we'll be as direct as we were under him but once we got it into the final third we were really exciting to watch.

[Barham Blitz 661]

8 hours ago, hogesar said:

I liked Dowell. I thought he probably looked at his best as an overall player in those early games under Wagner. Worked hard, counter-pressed, linked up play and then got himself into goal scoring positions too. 

So he's a definitely a miss. But I don't buy that we're going for "no-skill" footballers. I'm pleased if we go for a more energetic, counter-pressing side. You've seen us try to do it under Wagner particularly in the last few games where we didn't have the physical attributes to make it effective - teams got through the press and we were horribly exposed. 

I do think its a shift away from Farkeball but I don't think any of us were bored watching a Lambert team play, for example. Now, I don't think we'll be as direct as we were under him but once we got it into the final third we were really exciting to watch.

I think that is a fair assessment.  I suspect everyone gets the fact that I am a fan of Farkeball but there are other ways of playing, many of which can be both effective and entertaining as some of our better teams over the past thirty or so years have demonstrated.

But given the evidence of this season it is going to be some task to get this squad up to a very different style requiring very different attributes on a shoestring.  Time for Webber, Wagner and the analytics team to collectively earn their corn.  I have my doubts for the coming season but I'd be more than happy to hold my hands up if they manage it - let's see how it pans out.

[essex canary 506]

Scottish Football is a good option after Costa del Colney.

[Danke bitte 967]

On 26/05/2023 at 11:30, Danke bitte said:

The biggest problem for me is that (what I saw as) the better players have all gone while the weaker ones like Onel and Idah have been given new contracts. I'll accept the accusation of being overly negative. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than get my hopes up only to be disappointed.

I’m just taking this portion of your response as I’m aware that “quoting” makes it a chore to scroll the page sometimes.

I align myself with your concerns about giving weaker points longer contracts but equally we need a squad insomuch that we need rotation.

Alot of your reply point out your future concerns,  for me, as Wagner has been quoted, I feel a competitive squad is potentially 2 windows away. Think Farke Season 1. That’s at odds with our level of expectations as fans now. Because it requires patience.

We can all wax lyrical with fag packet maths assertions about monies and so forth but none of us will ever be privy to the actual budget we have to bring in new bodies. I feel they’ll be £ to spend, but we won’t be overly public about it given our failure 2 seasons ago. 

Barnes is a decent statement of intent imo. It suggests that there’s recognition that we have lacked leaders and strong personalities to keep our squad moving forward. But, and this is the rub for me, is we bring in players that know the Champ, and are leaders, but aren’t weapons to drag us up the table. 

I admire your realist approach, you’re not negative, I apologise if you thought that was my stance. Wagner is still question marks for me but equally coming in mid season to a club regressing, with a fan base unwilling to get behind the team at home, and having no funds to shape a squad was never going to be easy. I think you can see that. Equally I appreciate fan concerns about whether he’s got what it takes to kick on given he did have players capable of tickling the top 6.