Wagner

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

I'm sure you did, and with your aforementioned inability to apply logic and nuance, I'm sure you're findings were exactly as you wanted them to be.

You're wrong. Feel free to dig through the forum and check if you like, or pick out the opposing features of Farke's first 11 for yourself under Smith. Smith got more points per game with a better goal difference for the corresponding fixtures.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

5 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Webber has now succeeded in appointing two very ordinary coaches, neither as good as never mind better than Farke.

There's no basis to consider Farke a superior manager than either Wagner or Smith given his truly atrocious record at Premier League level. I mean, embarrassingly bad, if we're honest.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You're wrong. Feel free to dig through the forum and check if you like, or pick out the opposing features of Farke's first 11 for yourself under Smith. Smith got more points per game with a better goal difference for the corresponding fixtures.

I don't doubt it, Smith beat Burnley and Watford so that's already 6 points.

But there is the stuff that you're chronic cognitive dissonance won't let you remember; the inability to have a proper pre-season, the point-denying official decisions in the Leicester and Arsenal games, etc.

And it doesn't change the fact that over Farke's 11 fixtures and Smith's 27, Farke's opposition had a higher average position in the league table.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,755]

I did tell you all he is not any better than Smith..

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I don't doubt it, Smith beat Burnley and Watford so that's already 6 points.

But there is the stuff that you're chronic cognitive dissonance won't let you remember; the inability to have a proper pre-season, the point-denying official decisions in the Leicester and Arsenal games, etc.

And it doesn't change the fact that over Farke's 11 fixtures and Smith's 27, Farke's opposition had a higher average position in the league table.

You know, you talk of nuance, but that is conspicuous in its absence in all of the sack <insert name here> campaigns that inevitably start whenever we have a bad patch.

Yes Farke was short a proper pre-season, but so was Smith this season, but no allowance was made for that.

Edited April 19, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Capt. Pants 4,262]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There's no basis to consider Farke a superior manager than either Wagner or Smith given his truly atrocious record at Premier League level. I mean, embarrassingly bad, if we're honest.

I sometimes wonder if you actually watch our games?

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,333]

Can we sack LYB while we're at it? 🙃

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

Just now, Capt. Pants said:

I sometimes wonder if you actually watch our games?

I didn't tonight, but I usually do. I've really pretty much given up on this season overall. In my opinion, this season became a waste of time as soon as Smith was sacked at the behest of fans to fix the 'disconnect' for no real good reason as we can now see. And it was because of fans, as hinted at by Webber's sarcastic retort to a fan when we were waiting to hear Smith's replacement as to whether his replacement clapped the fans...

We flattered to deceive under Farke at Championship level because of the style he insisted on and a couple of real flair players. He attacked the Premier League with gusto first time around with Buendia and might have pulled it off with some luck, I'll give him that, but the second attempt was on course to be far worse than the first without Buendia.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

10 minutes ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Can we sack LYB while we're at it? 🙃

Nope. 🙂

[Monty13 2,235]

11 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You know, you talk of nuance, but that is conspicuous in its absence in all of the sack <insert name here> campaigns that inevitably start whenever we have a bad patch.

Yes Farke was short a proper pre-season, but so was Smith this season, but no allowance was made for that.

Is two years really a “patch”?

[mastoola 185]

1 hour ago, S_81 said:

The problems clearly go a lot deeper than the Manager - we need Webber gone and need more investment - but none the less it’s hard to believe that Wagner warrants a crack at next season. 

what we need is an owner that gives direction

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There's no basis to consider Farke a superior manager than either Wagner or Smith given his truly atrocious record at Premier League level. I mean, embarrassingly bad, if we're honest.

 

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You know, you talk of nuance, but that is conspicuous in its absence in all of the sack <insert name here> campaigns that inevitably start whenever we have a bad patch.

Yes Farke was short a proper pre-season, but so was Smith this season, but no allowance was made for that.

The preseason under Farke was due to Covid, we were disrupted far more than pretty much all of our competitors accept maybe Arsenal, who were hardly what you would call a competitor.

The short preseason this year was because of the World Cup. Guess what? It was the same for every ****ing team!

You see what I mean? You can't consider context; you have an opinion and go looking for things to prove it but won't (or can't?) even scratch below the surface.

You're whole "Smith is better in the EPL than Farke" is a classic example of this. Yes, Smith's PPG in the EPL is overall much better than Farke's. That's where you stop in your analysis, because it's enough to confirm your viewpoint. You don't consider the fact that he was in charge of a squad that had a NINE-FIGURE sum spent on it. You do know that Manager of the Year awards don't always go to the manager who wins the league? Take this season, if Man City end up clawing back Arsenal to win the title, that doesn't mean Guardiola has done a better job than Arteta. With their respective playing and fiscal resources, Man City should realistically be finishing a dozen points clear of Arsenal. You'd turn around and say, "Guardiola has a better PPG than Arteta this year, he's done much better as a head coach"?

The truth is, we don't know how good an EPL manager Farke is, because his only proper stab at it came with a squad that had £750k spent on it and then his second he had a poorly assembled squad and was denied a chance to get a tune out of it after a win that might have indicated the turning of a corner. He might be a poor elite league coach, he's not exactly pulling up trees at BMG (though has avoided losing 19 games in a row *cough*Wagner*cough*).

But your idiotic "SmItH dId WeLl At AsToN vIlLa OnCe In ThE ePl, FaRkE dId RuBbIsH aT nOrWiCh" just doesn't hold water. Particularly when we had a realistic head-to-head of Smith and Farke in the same league. 2018/19. Smith came in and took charge of a squad that was more expensively assembled and with a much bigger wage budget than Farke, that had made the playoffs the season before, and was only 3 points and a couple of league places behind Farke's Norwich. By the end of the season, they were four places and a whole EIGHTEEN points behind. And Farke did the double over Smith.

[TIL 1010 4,766]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 In my opinion, this season became a waste of time as soon as Smith was sacked at the behest of fans to fix the 'disconnect' for no real good reason as we can now see. And it was because of fans, as hinted at by Webber's sarcastic retort to a fan when we were waiting to hear Smith's replacement as to whether his replacement clapped the fans...

 

Jesus wept are you for real ?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

Just now, Monty13 said:

Is two years really a “patch”?

Relegation from the Premier league was within the realms of realistic expectations, and this season many were very discontented even when we were top of the league.

[Monty13 2,235]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I didn't tonight, but I usually do. I've really pretty much given up on this season overall. In my opinion, this season became a waste of time as soon as Smith was sacked at the behest of fans to fix the 'disconnect' for no real good reason as we can now see. And it was because of fans, as hinted at by Webber's sarcastic retort to a fan when we were waiting to hear Smith's replacement as to whether his replacement clapped the fans...

We flattered to deceive under Farke at Championship level because of the style he insisted on and a couple of real flair players. He attacked the Premier League with gusto first time around with Buendia and might have pulled it off with some luck, I'll give him that, but the second attempt was on course to be far worse than the first without Buendia.

And whose fault was that? Did “the fans” sell our best player and replace him with utter dross?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

2 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

And whose fault was that? Did “the fans” sell our best player and replace him with utter dross?

Buendia had a year left, wouldn't be renewing, and really really insisted he wanted to go. Not letting him go would have been stupid. And I'd argue that has been reinforced by how Pukki has become a real disappointment this season since we insisted he stayed when he made it clear he wanted to go last Summer. He has been professional, but nothing more.

Edited April 19, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,333]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

And whose fault was that? Did “the fans” sell our best player and replace him with utter dross?

Yeah, sorry about that everyone... I just needed my drive way re done so thought the extra cash was a better bet 👍

[Midlands Yellow 4,013]

4 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Jesus wept are you for real ?

He certainly is, last attended a match during Tudor times but is an expert on management at NCFC. 

[Monty13 2,235]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Buendia had a year left, wouldn't be renewing, and really really insisted he wanted to go. Not letting him go would have been stupid. And I'd argue that has been reinforced by how Pukki has become a real disappointment this season since we insisted he stayed when he made it clear he wanted to go last Summer.

“He has now signed fresh terms on a deal until 2024, adding two years to his previous contract, which was only signed last summer.”

So in 2022 he had two years left.

And as reported by Michael Bailey he only insisted he wanted to go a few weeks after Webber told the world our best players were for sale and clubs were interested.

That one is on Webber, regardless how anyone wants to spin it.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

5 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

He certainly is, last attended a match during Tudor times but is an expert on management at NCFC. 

My position is I know f*k all about management or the inner workings of the club, which is why I leave it to the judgement of the actual professionals in the employ of the club and generally try to push the idea that maybe people on the forum shouldn't be so certain that their sack whoever campaigns help anything or anyone; the Smith campaign has clearly not helped and neither did the Farke one. Chances are sacking Webber won't help either.

Edited April 19, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

4 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

“He has now signed fresh terms on a deal until 2024, adding two years to his previous contract, which was only signed last summer.”

So in 2022 he had two years left.

And as reported by Michael Bailey he only insisted he wanted to go a few weeks after Webber told the world our best players were for sale and clubs were interested.

That one is on Webber, regardless how anyone wants to spin it.

I don't agree. You can't force players to play, and especially not to play well.

Edited April 19, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[hogesar 9,705]

I dont know the fitness situations of players but the concerning thing for me was the randomly chucking attacking players on with no real idea of what we were doing. We were stretching them with Idah and Sargent 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

The minute top 26 has gone Webber needs to be fired.  He will not be because his wife is his boss. Laughable

[canarydan23 4,060]

28 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

My position is I know f*k all about management

Yes. We're well aware.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

28 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

“He has now signed fresh terms on a deal until 2024, adding two years to his previous contract, which was only signed last summer.”

So in 2022 he had two years left.

And as reported by Michael Bailey he only insisted he wanted to go a few weeks after Webber told the world our best players were for sale and clubs were interested.

That one is on Webber, regardless how anyone wants to spin it.

Buendia is on Webber. No club has ever sold their best player on promotion to the top flight. Moronic decision and we are still paying for it!

[mastoola 185]

23 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Buendia is on Webber. No club has ever sold their best player on promotion to the top flight. Moronic decision and we are still paying for it!

did he?  or he sold on the second promotion when the player wanted to leave?

[Jim Smith 2,325]

I think Wagner deserves a crack at next season with (more of) his own squad of players. However I have not seen him do a single thing so far (in terms of selections, tactics or substitutions) that gives me why faith in him. 

[repman 635]

All the  worries I had concerning Wagner's appointment have come true. He can't coach a side in possession to the level required in this league anymore. He found success with Huddersfield but he didn't face sides sitting as deep as we do. Even with that, his Huddersfield side was hardly the class of the division. The early performances provided hope that he did have some plan in possession, but it appears that it was very much on the surface and not actual instruction. Kenny dropping between the CB's caught some teams out because it was new but once they knew what was coming they found it much easier to stop.

Wagner is a good 5 years out from his career high point, at least Dean Smith was only about 18 months prior to him coming here. 

I fear we will have another summer where people will make the arguments about how Wagner needs a window to get the right players in and work with the squad properly. There's certainly a possible outcome where we are better next season under him but I don't think he's shown anything to make it seem as if it's a likely one.

[Jim Smith 2,325]

3 minutes ago, mastoola said:

did he?  or he sold on the second promotion when the player wanted to leave?

It was a catastrophic decision to sell Buendia. Ok it could have been mitigated had he not signed a load of utter sh*te with the money but it was still an abysmal decision given the timing and the message it sent out. Ultimately comes down to the ownership though as we obviously felt we needed to do it to fund incoming transfers. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,138]

I honestly don't know what you would do with this squad. So mentally weak, they make poor decisions all the time, there's no pace or ability to run with the ball, no cohesion amoungst any players, none of the attackers work as a unit or suit each others game. 

It was simple in the past to criticize when things went wrong. You could clearly see the deficiencies with tactics with AN for example, stop leaving the full back so exposed or with Hughton we were just far too negative but with this group I wouldn't know where to begin with making them work as team. Wagner has a weird mix of players who don't suit any style, haven't played together much, don't suit each others game, have mental scars, very limited physical attributes, lack a strong mentality and don't really appear to have much character or leadership qualities. 

I've been willing to write this season off for a while now because I don't think the manager is the problem and didn't think Smith was doing a terrible job either to be fair. We need a complete overhaul in the summer and with our budget will have to accept lowering the individual quality of the squad to get a group of players who can play Wagner's style. I'm not going to judge him until next season because these lot are a lost cause.