We have to leave what has happened behind...

[Robert N. LiM 4,667]

“This is a new challenge for us all. Will it be easy? No. We have to leave what has happened in the past behind. If we want success, we have to be together. Together as a group of players, backroom staff and supporters.”

👊🏻

[TheGunnShow 6,103]

This might be an easier task for Wagner as he's following a manager who was relatively unpopular. I do feel a bit sorry for Smith, who I think will go on and do well elsewhere, but following the most popular manager we had in a long time, who conquered the Championship with such stylish football, was always going to be a bloody hard task.

If a manager of the calibre of David Moyes or indeed Jose Mourinho was in the shadow of Sir Alex Ferguson at Man Utd, a perfectly decent manager in Smith was practically on a hiding to nothing.

We start again. Wagner seems to have hit the right notes in his opening media duties but only time will tell if he can get this team sharp and get a tune out of it, or if everything really is off-key.

[Nexus_Canary 1,047]

NEVER FORGIVE

Smith dismantled our team ( he bought Emi)

 

[Chichcan 148]

"we are in a position to hunt. Hunt for the top 10, hunt for the top 6...it could be quite exciting to be a hunter"

 

He even makes being 11th sound quite sexy

Edited January 6, 2023 by Chichcan

[norfolkngood 1,098]

Should never forget history as that is how you learn by mistakes and do not repeat the errors 

[nutty nigel 7,669]

What errors has Wagner made here?

[mastoola 189]

4 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

What errors has Wagner made here?

He signed to be our manager?

[nutty nigel 7,669]

25 minutes ago, mastoola said:

He signed to be our manager?

That'll do for the moment 🙃

[Indy 3,349]

I’m actually getting tickets for Sunday! Looking forwards to the new Wagner Era……

[Robert N. LiM 4,667]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

This might be an easier task for Wagner as he's following a manager who was relatively unpopular. I do feel a bit sorry for Smith, who I think will go on and do well elsewhere, but following the most popular manager we had in a long time, who conquered the Championship with such stylish football, was always going to be a bloody hard task.

If a manager of the calibre of David Moyes or indeed Jose Mourinho was in the shadow of Sir Alex Ferguson at Man Utd, a perfectly decent manager in Smith was practically on a hiding to nothing.

We start again. Wagner seems to have hit the right notes in his opening media duties but only time will tell if he can get this team sharp and get a tune out of it, or if everything really is off-key.

Other than the Wagner music puns, I agree with all of this. As you say, Smith will be fine. Best for all parties he moved on.

[TheGunnShow 6,103]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Other than the Wagner music puns, I agree with all of this. As you say, Smith will be fine. Best for all parties he moved on.

I have no symphony for your lack of fondness for puns here. 😉

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I have no symphony for your lack of fondness for puns here. 😉

To be Franck, there's no Haydn from the fact that the the Liszt of composer puns one can make is more than most people can Handel.

[TheGunnShow 6,103]

16 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

To be Franck, there's no Haydn from the fact that the the Liszt of composer puns one can make is more than most people can Handel.

It's Grieg-ing at the seams. I was Chopin for a break!

[All the Germans 1,085]

5 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

This might be an easier task for Wagner as he's following a manager who was relatively unpopular. I do feel a bit sorry for Smith, who I think will go on and do well elsewhere, but following the most popular manager we had in a long time, who conquered the Championship with such stylish football, was always going to be a bloody hard task.

If a manager of the calibre of David Moyes or indeed Jose Mourinho was in the shadow of Sir Alex Ferguson at Man Utd, a perfectly decent manager in Smith was practically on a hiding to nothing.

We start again. Wagner seems to have hit the right notes in his opening media duties but only time will tell if he can get this team sharp and get a tune out of it, or if everything really is off-key.

Almost sounds like we should never have sacked the most popular manager we had in a long time, who conquered the Championship with such stylish football (twice)?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

28 minutes ago, All the Germans said:

Almost sounds like we should never have sacked the most popular manager we had in a long time, who conquered the Championship with such stylish football (twice)?

I think that depends on what you want overall from the club. Do you want to be a perennial yoyo club and just enjoy the ride? Do you think we should be pulling out all the stops to become a permanent fixture in the Premier League whatever it takes.

I think they're two different schools of thought each of which make up large factions of the Norwich fan base. Farke suits the former but not the latter. I would have said that Smith should have suited the latter and I think that''s what the club strategy was in choosing him as a replacement for Farke. Obviously the hang up over Farke was a large part of the coldness towards him.

Fingers crossed that Wagner pleases both camps, but I do think there are two camps, and the division frequently comes to the fore and damages the club in the process.

Edited January 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[All the Germans 1,085]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I think that depends on what you want overall from the club. Do you want to be a perennial yoyo club and just enjoy the ride? Do you think we should be pulling out all the stops to become a permanent fixture in the Premier League whatever it takes.

I think they're two different schools of thought each of which make up large factions of the Norwich fan base. Farke suits the former but not the latter? I would have said that Smith should have suited the latter and I think that''s what the club strategy was in choosing him as a replacement for Farke.

Fingers crossed that Wagner pleases both camps, but I do think there are two camps, and the division frequently comes to the fore and damages the club in the process.

Firstly, Smith was rubbish in the Championship, that does not align with the suggestion that he  falls into the second camp. Secondly, Farke really could have become a legend here, his personality, the style of football, "my heart is yellow", the interaction with the fans after games,  the entertainment etc  etc. I have never witnessed anything like it. However, The "Grass is always greener" type of supporter wanted him out due to their frustrations without considering is there anyone better we could employ...(spoiler, the answer was no). A change is only good if it's an improvement. There's no point bring off a mis-firing Pukki (Farke) for a rubbish Hugill (Smith).

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

5 minutes ago, All the Germans said:

Firstly, Smith was rubbish in the Championship, that does not align with the suggestion that he  falls into the second camp. Secondly, Farke really could have become a legend here, his personality, the style of football, "my heart is yellow", the interaction with the fans after games,  the entertainment etc  etc. I have never witnessed anything like it. However, The "Grass is always greener" type of supporter wanted him out due to their frustrations without considering is there anyone better we could employ...(spoiler, the answer was no). A change is only good if it's an improvement. There's no point bring off a mis-firing Pukki (Farke) for a rubbish Hugill (Smith).

Smith was not rubbish in the championship when we were top of the league this season. Still, the attitude towards him was largely negative.

Farke is a legend here, but when all's said and done he was rubbish in the Premier league twice: Once for a whole season and once for a quarter of a season up until the point he got sacked.

And Farke's first season in the Championship was mediocre.

But anyway, with Smith being the fall guy for the sacking of Farke for his failures, we can now move on to a new chapter.

Edited January 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[All the Germans 1,085]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Smith was not rubbish in the championship when we were top of the league this season. Still, the attitude towards him was largely negative.

Farke is a legand here, but when all's said and done he was rubbish in the Premier league twice: Once for a whole season and once for a quarter of a season up until the point he got sacked.

Respectfully disagree. Smith was rubbish in the Premier League and rubbish in the Championship. I'm not sure taking a snapshot of a single point in time when Smith had the team high in the league is relevant. Overall, his performance for us in the Championship was rubbish (and also rubbish in the Premier League). Overall, Farke's performance was amazing in the Championship, for one season in the Premier League was poor - but was "sent to war without a gun" - and the following quarter of a season did slightly worse than Smith did in the 3/4's (Farke 10 games - 5 points, Smith 28 games - 17 points) but both were hamstrung by a truly terrible squad by Premier League standards (they didn't even get a uniform, let alone a gun).

Changing manager / making substitutions etc is only beneficial if the change is for the better, a change that makes it worse is not sensible. Farke did an incredible job here and it was arrogant to think we could get better than him. Smith was a negative change and made us worse. 

[chicken 2,685]

53 minutes ago, All the Germans said:

Almost sounds like we should never have sacked the most popular manager we had in a long time, who conquered the Championship with such stylish football (twice)?

Yup, but the flip side to that is 5pts in over 20 premier league games. You either gamble and try to rescue something from a seemingly doomed season or you just accept that we won't stay up and accept relegation in October.

In some ways, there was nothing to lose. I suspect that what it actually did is save Farke's connection with the fans and the bond we'd grown. We can all love him for those two seasons, and gloss over the premier league. Had he stayed until the end of last season it'd been a tall ask for a third successive promotion, especially for the autos. If he had struggled to get the team going, we'd have seen the same grumbles coming to the surface that we saw at the start of the 2nd promotion campaign...

Those would have grown, and we could well have been in the same place.

Yes, we may not have been, but lets face it, he wasn't keeping us up. Not with that record. I for one am glad that he went before his status was tarnished. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

7 minutes ago, All the Germans said:

Respectfully disagree. Smith was rubbish in the Premier League and rubbish in the Championship. I'm not sure taking a snapshot of a single point in time when Smith had the team high in the league is relevant. Overall, his performance for us in the Championship was rubbish (and also rubbish in the Premier League). Overall, Farke's performance was amazing in the Championship, for one season in the Premier League was poor - but was "sent to war without a gun" - and the following quarter of a season did slightly worse than Smith did in the 3/4's (Farke 10 games - 5 points, Smith 28 games - 17 points) but both were hamstrung by a truly terrible squad by Premier League standards (they didn't even get a uniform, let alone a gun).

Changing manager / making substitutions etc is only beneficial if the change is for the better, a change that makes it worse is not sensible. Farke did an incredible job here and it was arrogant to think we could get better than him. Smith was a negative change and made us worse. 

Taking a snapshot in time is perfectly justifiable to point out that the unremitting negativity towards him had nothing to do with his performance, only that he had replaced Farke, which was an unforgivable sin for many.

And Smith did better than Farke on both points per game and goal difference per game than Farke in the Premier League with the same squad in the same season.

Edited January 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[chicken 2,685]

4 minutes ago, All the Germans said:

Respectfully disagree. Smith was rubbish in the Premier League and rubbish in the Championship. I'm not sure taking a snapshot of a single point in time when Smith had the team high in the league is relevant. Overall, his performance for us in the Championship was rubbish (and also rubbish in the Premier League). Overall, Farke's performance was amazing in the Championship, for one season in the Premier League was poor - but was "sent to war without a gun" - and the following quarter of a season did slightly worse than Smith did in the 3/4's (Farke 10 games - 5 points, Smith 28 games - 17 points) but both were hamstrung by a truly terrible squad by Premier League standards (they didn't even get a uniform, let alone a gun).

Changing manager / making substitutions etc is only beneficial if the change is for the better, a change that makes it worse is not sensible. Farke did an incredible job here and it was arrogant to think we could get better than him. Smith was a negative change and made us worse. 

Smith was actually hamstrung in the premier league by injuries and then when covid hit the squad and the club (sporting part of it) decided to play games rather than kick up a stink like other teams. We had fixtures where our bench was every last remaining senior player that could walk and a bunch of U23's. I think Tomkinson made the bench quite a few times last season for example. 

That's not to say he was good, but one has to remember not only did he inherit the squad, he didn't get to add to it either. No signings in January. He still managed to get 5pts in his first three games. In comparison, Farke got 5pts in his last 20+ premier league games. Neither amazing for us in the premier league.

The only real difference is that Farke had fuel in the tank from Championship title seasons. That said, IMHO, if Farke had been at any other club (Watford especially) he'd have been sacked sooner, harsh as that sounds. 

[norfolkngood 1,098]

15 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

What errors has Wagner made here?

No of course not nutty but he said " We have to leave what has happened in the past behind."

i said no what happened in the past should never be forgotten as you will not learn by your mistakes 

that means players and Webber and Board 

Not Wagger Wagner Wenger 

So with the New Manager clean slate excited he is finally here

but Recent history for players and Webber should be used to Spur them on to perform better 

 

[nutty nigel 7,669]

2 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

No of course not nutty but he said " We have to leave what has happened in the past behind."

i said no what happened in the past should never be forgotten as you will not learn by your mistakes 

that means players and Webber and Board 

Not Wagger Wagner Wenger 

So with the New Manager clean slate excited he is finally here

but Recent history for players and Webber should be used to Spur them on to perform better 

 

But I guarantee if Wagner's a success it will be ok. If he's not whatever Webber or the players do they won't have learned.

Time to let go and see.

[Branston Pickle 3,744]

11 hours ago, chicken said:

Smith was actually hamstrung in the premier league by injuries and then when covid hit the squad and the club (sporting part of it) decided to play games rather than kick up a stink like other teams. We had fixtures where our bench was every last remaining senior player that could walk and a bunch of U23's. I think Tomkinson made the bench quite a few times last season for example. 

That's not to say he was good, but one has to remember not only did he inherit the squad, he didn't get to add to it either. No signings in January. He still managed to get 5pts in his first three games. In comparison, Farke got 5pts in his last 20+ premier league games. Neither amazing for us in the premier league.

The only real difference is that Farke had fuel in the tank from Championship title seasons. That said, IMHO, if Farke had been at any other club (Watford especially) he'd have been sacked sooner, harsh as that sounds. 

Don’t you dare come up with mitigations for Smith…this forum has decreed that such things are just rubbish, nothing more, he is crap and should never have come here. The end. 

[Indy 3,349]

11 hours ago, chicken said:

Smith was actually hamstrung in the premier league by injuries and then when covid hit the squad and the club (sporting part of it) decided to play games rather than kick up a stink like other teams. We had fixtures where our bench was every last remaining senior player that could walk and a bunch of U23's. I think Tomkinson made the bench quite a few times last season for example. 

That's not to say he was good, but one has to remember not only did he inherit the squad, he didn't get to add to it either. No signings in January. He still managed to get 5pts in his first three games. In comparison, Farke got 5pts in his last 20+ premier league games. Neither amazing for us in the premier league.

The only real difference is that Farke had fuel in the tank from Championship title seasons. That said, IMHO, if Farke had been at any other club (Watford especially) he'd have been sacked sooner, harsh as that sounds. 

But isn’t that the same for any manager taking over a relegation threatened club? Most clubs will have injuries all clubs were in the Covid  camp too, it wasn’t unique to us! The remit for any change is to see an improvement, bases of change in system, fight and passion……if relegated then fine it is part of the game.

The fact that Smith had this summer had a few transfers, moulded the squad with the new players and still couldn’t get them to play in a coherent and systematic way ultimately lead to his sacking! I don’t get why excuses are needed, his win % is the worst in 30 years.

But like others time to move on I’m sure Smith is relieved to be gone as are we to see the change which had to happen. Now the pressure is on Wagner to get this squad on the up. Time will tell how good this squad is and what needs to change.

Add to this we lost the last home game to a second string Watford…..they had a mountain of injuries to their first team!

Edited January 7, 2023 by Indy

[chicken 2,685]

6 minutes ago, Indy said:

But isn’t that the same for any manager taking over a relegation threatened club? Most clubs will have injuries all clubs were n theovid camp too, it wasn’t unique to us! The remit for any change is to see an improvement, bases of change in system, fight and passion……if relegated then fine it is part of the game.

The fact that Smith had this summer had a few transfers, moulded the squad with the new players and still couldn’t get them to play in a coherent and systematic way ultimately lead to his sacking! I don’t get why excuses are needed, his win % is the worst in 30 years.

But like others time to move on I’m sure Smith is relieved to be gone as are we to see the change which had to happen. Now the pressure is on Wagner to get this squad on the up. Time will tell how good this squad is and what needs to change.

Nope and nope. Norwich don't have a deep squad. Placheta for Rashica is a good example. Or even the untested, untried Rowe - though he did well. In regards to Covid, I think of the bottom half teams, certainly those in the relegation battle, we handled it the worst.

Before those occurred, we saw big improvement, we had a bounce back. We gained as many points in three games under Smith than we had in more than 20 under Farke in the Premier League.

Ultimately Smith wasn't good enough. As I have said before, that's all that needs to be said. We don't need to concoct false emphasis or create poor additional arguments - both only make the main argument weaker, not stronger.

Some sobering stats - 

Having looked it up, on footballdatabase.eu it's tight but Smith still has a better win ratio.

Farker in the 19-20 season: 13% win, 16% draw, 71% lose.
Farker in the 21-22 season: 9% win, 18% draw, 73% lose (from 11 games).

Smith in the 21-22 season: 15% win, 19% draw, 67% lose (from 27 games).

So you can take from that in different ways. Perhaps with 11 more games he would have had similar stats to Farke's first season. Just for reference, Smith had a 27% win rate in the first 11 games of last season with Aston Villa. 

As for the summer... Sara, Nunez, Hayden and Ramsey. Those are the players the sporting board brought in, of which Smith is part. I think anyone with a level headed hat on would accept that is not a squad, nor a team reshape. Especially when you consider that central midfield has been an issue for 2-3 seasons at least, especially with Tettey coming to the end of his career.

In that area alone we had lost four players; Lees-Melou, Rupp, Normann, Gilmour. So to be frank, these were enforced changes, we had no choice but to bring players in, both because it had underperformed before and because of literally no bodies there. We mustn't forget that Gibbs was really only brought into the fold as a starter due to the lack of fitness of those players and that he excelled so quickly.

Again, I'm happy with Smith being let go, I'm happy with Wagner. We need to move on, and we need to drop the arguments people "thought" carried weight. 
 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

14 hours ago, Indy said:

But isn’t that the same for any manager taking over a relegation threatened club? Most clubs will have injuries all clubs were in the Covid  camp too, it wasn’t unique to us! The remit for any change is to see an improvement, bases of change in system, fight and passion……if relegated then fine it is part of the game.

The fact that Smith had this summer had a few transfers, moulded the squad with the new players and still couldn’t get them to play in a coherent and systematic way ultimately lead to his sacking! I don’t get why excuses are needed, his win % is the worst in 30 years.

But like others time to move on I’m sure Smith is relieved to be gone as are we to see the change which had to happen. Now the pressure is on Wagner to get this squad on the up. Time will tell how good this squad is and what needs to change.

Add to this we lost the last home game to a second string Watford…..they had a mountain of injuries to their first team!

'Relegation threatened' doesn't really do 1 point in the first 10 games justice.

[Indy 3,349]

20 hours ago, chicken said:

Nope and nope. Norwich don't have a deep squad. Placheta for Rashica is a good example. Or even the untested, untried Rowe - though he did well. In regards to Covid, I think of the bottom half teams, certainly those in the relegation battle, we handled it the worst.

Before those occurred, we saw big improvement, we had a bounce back. We gained as many points in three games under Smith than we had in more than 20 under Farke in the Premier League.

Ultimately Smith wasn't good enough. As I have said before, that's all that needs to be said. We don't need to concoct false emphasis or create poor additional arguments - both only make the main argument weaker, not stronger.

Some sobering stats - 

Having looked it up, on footballdatabase.eu it's tight but Smith still has a better win ratio.

Farker in the 19-20 season: 13% win, 16% draw, 71% lose.
Farker in the 21-22 season: 9% win, 18% draw, 73% lose (from 11 games).

Smith in the 21-22 season: 15% win, 19% draw, 67% lose (from 27 games).

So you can take from that in different ways. Perhaps with 11 more games he would have had similar stats to Farke's first season. Just for reference, Smith had a 27% win rate in the first 11 games of last season with Aston Villa. 

As for the summer... Sara, Nunez, Hayden and Ramsey. Those are the players the sporting board brought in, of which Smith is part. I think anyone with a level headed hat on would accept that is not a squad, nor a team reshape. Especially when you consider that central midfield has been an issue for 2-3 seasons at least, especially with Tettey coming to the end of his career.

In that area alone we had lost four players; Lees-Melou, Rupp, Normann, Gilmour. So to be frank, these were enforced changes, we had no choice but to bring players in, both because it had underperformed before and because of literally no bodies there. We mustn't forget that Gibbs was really only brought into the fold as a starter due to the lack of fitness of those players and that he excelled so quickly.

Again, I'm happy with Smith being let go, I'm happy with Wagner. We need to move on, and we need to drop the arguments people "thought" carried weight. 
 

Again all you’ve done is make a list of excuses which every manager ever sacked for poor results could make! The reality is that you only get sacked if you don’t perform to the requirements of your employer! His % win including the championship is abysmal! Why the need to try a justify his poor 14 moths is a little bit clutching at straws.

Every club goes through poor managers, I’m sure Jose & Moyes time at United had the same type of excuses they could make and their history prior to taking that job was exceptional! Sometimes the manager just doesn’t fit the club, the attitude and connection isn’t there and that’s sad but the crux of it!

Nothing to say Wagner might go the same way, but the big difference is put up the first interview by Smith, and Wagner, then you get a gist of the personality of the manager and how they feel, then the history, have they got the right background to get the best out of the clubs situation. The rest is always a gamble. The same for players.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Indy

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

On 06/01/2023 at 19:03, Nexus_Canary said:

NEVER FORGIVE

Smith dismantled our team ( he bought Emi)

Paid a fair price for Emi.

Webber spent it on Rashica, Tsoliz and Sargent and only one of them is good enough for English football.

Never forgive Webber for spunking the Emi money up the wall.

Edited January 8, 2023 by TeemuVanBasten

[chicken 2,685]

9 hours ago, Indy said:

Again all you’ve done is make a list of excuses which every manager ever sacked for poor results could make! The reality is that you only get sacked if you don’t perform to the requirements of your employer! His % win including the championship is abysmal! Why the need to try a justify his poor 14 moths is a little bit clutching at straws.

Every club goes through poor managers, I’m sure Jose & Moyes time at United had the same type of excuses they could make and their history prior to taking that job was exceptional! Sometimes the manager just doesn’t fit the club, the attitude and connection isn’t there and that’s sad but the crux of it!

Nothing to say Wagner might go the same way, but the big difference is put up the first interview by Smith, and Wagner, then you get a gist of the personality of the manager and how they feel, then the history, have they got the right background to get the best out of the clubs situation. The rest is always a gamble. The same for players.

All you've done is roll out the same blah blah blah again.

I think you'll find that I quite clearly said I was happy with his sacking and happy to see Wagner as his replacement. Talk about only reading what you want to.

I wasn't justifying, though justice is probably close to the truth. Again, if people want to make stuff up, I am not one of those people that will stand by and just nod because it suits my broader opinion.

People keep going on about "personality" but that really isn't such a big deal as winning. Get a string of results together and everyone will chant a managers name. The same as Andy Hughes used to regularly clap the fans after every game and he was consistently slagged off. The same as people wanted Farke out after his first season and couldn't predict what would happen the next. More muted then, mainly because we had sold good players and new we were in a bit of a financial situation. Nobody cared much for his clapping the fans back then.

I prefer to analyse what's actually happened. If it's at odds with the imagination of others, fine, I don't care. But some folks, tend to prefer to make it personal, make up stuff and throw it about the place like cheap unwanted confetti. If that's your thang, you're welcome to it. I'll continue to call it BS when I see it though.