The Cost Of Living Crisis

[Van wink 2,994]

48 minutes ago, Aggy said:

So will the pay rises change the ambulances waiting outside the hospitals or stop nurses having to work 12 hour shifts?

There is no doubt that the NHS is under enormous pressure and there is also no doubt IMO that it will always be thus until we are able to change our lifestyles and dependancy upon it,  rather than taking responsibility for our own wellbeing. A difficult political reality but one which will need to be faced by whatever political party is in office. Recruitment and retention is of course an issue in any profession, but there a much bigger societal issue here. Hundreds of drunks turning up at A and E on a Friday night really is not what Aneuirin Bevan had in mind!

Edited December 24, 2022 by Van wink

[Aggy 755]

9 minutes ago, Van wink said:

There is no doubt that the NHS is under enormous pressure and there is also no doubt IMO that it will always be thus until we are able to change our lifestyles and dependancy upon it,  rather than taking responsibility for our own wellbeing. A difficult political reality but one which will need to be faced by whatever political party is in office. Recruitment and retention is of course an issue in any profession, but there a much bigger societal issue here. Hundreds of drunks turning up at A and E on a Friday night really is not what Aneuirin Bevan had in mind!

But the strikes aren’t about working conditions or how busy the nhs is etc., they’re about pay?

[Well b back 3,207]

34 minutes ago, Aggy said:

But the strikes aren’t about working conditions or how busy the nhs is etc., they’re about pay?

Well done for believing the s*** they are feeding you. The government said 78,000 appointments would be cancelled with the nurses strike, the truth is there were around 3,000. They said people would die due to the ambulance strike, the truth is they answered all urgent calls and nobody died, yet 37 died in November due to delays caused by government funding. The nurses were accused of leaving their posts and leaving hospital wards unattended, the truth many went onto the picket lines for an hour in their lunchtime, then went straight back to their station. 
And yes while the junior nurses are paid a pittance when compared to workers at the likes of Aldi, how do you recruit more nurses, who have to do a 3-5 year course to qualify. By using those 5 years working in a supermarket, if they are ambitious they would be managers earning over £30,000.

The ambulance workers are making it clear that their reasons are working conditions and safety. It is the Tory MP’s saying it is about pay and people not caring about the public. Of course you can always dig back on certain threads and claim how the hospitals are empty by reprinting the pictures taken at 4am on a Saturday claiming the hospitals are empty.

And one last point, instead of talking to NHS workers last week, the government decided they want open warfare, and because of the insults thrown, that’s what they now have.

I seem to remember the NHS were to receive 350 million £ per week, that to was complete rubbish. 

 

[Well b back 3,207]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

There is no doubt that the NHS is under enormous pressure and there is also no doubt IMO that it will always be thus until we are able to change our lifestyles and dependancy upon it,  rather than taking responsibility for our own wellbeing. A difficult political reality but one which will need to be faced by whatever political party is in office. Recruitment and retention is of course an issue in any profession, but there a much bigger societal issue here. Hundreds of drunks turning up at A and E on a Friday night really is not what Aneuirin Bevan had in mind!

 

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

There is no doubt that the NHS is under enormous pressure and there is also no doubt IMO that it will always be thus until we are able to change our lifestyles and dependancy upon it,  rather than taking responsibility for our own wellbeing. A difficult political reality but one which will need to be faced by whatever political party is in office. Recruitment and retention is of course an issue in any profession, but there a much bigger societal issue here. Hundreds of drunks turning up at A and E on a Friday night really is not what Aneuirin Bevan had in mind!

Indeed, 1/3 of new nurses are being recruited from Africa, India and the America’s.

The problems will become worse every year as people live longer and longer. As the new cancer vaccines are introduced and it is now highly likely that in the next ten years MRNA technology will also become a cancer cure, people will be living well into their 100’s and more and more will need those hospital beds.

Unlike the government says the NHS is moving with the times. Many people that would have been in hospital, will instead be at home in ‘ virtual wards ‘. Of course you have seen little about this from the government as they don’t want you to know. The government will tell you all about the wastage in the NHS but not admit to how much of that is caused by them being clueless.

[Aggy 755]

21 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Well done for believing the s*** they are feeding you. The government said 78,000 appointments would be cancelled with the nurses strike, the truth is there were around 3,000. They said people would die due to the ambulance strike, the truth is they answered all urgent calls and nobody died, yet 37 died in November due to delays caused by government funding. The nurses were accused of leaving their posts and leaving hospital wards unattended, the truth many went onto the picket lines for an hour in their lunchtime, then went straight back to their station. 
And yes while the junior nurses are paid a pittance when compared to workers at the likes of Aldi, how do you recruit more nurses, who have to do a 3-5 year course to qualify. By using those 5 years working in a supermarket, if they are ambitious they would be managers earning over £30,000.

The ambulance workers are making it clear that their reasons are working conditions and safety. It is the Tory MP’s saying it is about pay and people not caring about the public. Of course you can always dig back on certain threads and claim how the hospitals are empty by reprinting the pictures taken at 4am on a Saturday claiming the hospitals are empty.

And one last point, instead of talking to NHS workers last week, the government decided they want open warfare, and because of the insults thrown, that’s what they now have.

I seem to remember the NHS were to receive 350 million £ per week, that to was complete rubbish. 

 

So are nurses asking for 5 per cent above inflation or is that Tory propaganda?

See my problem isn’t that they want paying more, it’s the ridiculous request for a ridiculous amount. I know people working in scientific industries who have been doing it 2-3 years and still earn less than a nurses starting salary. If those people stop working, your food doesn’t get to a super market and you starve. Yet they get paid less than nurses, haven’t already had a 4.5 per cent pay rise, and aren’t demanding 17.5 per cent. 

Simple fact is you can support nurses asking for bet term conditions, you can even support them asking for a pay rise. You can do all of that and still think their demands are ridiculous. Isn’t all black and white as you like to make out whenever it comes to the nhs.

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

The original reason for this thread was the cost of living. I help a little with a dog charity and in the last week have seen the stark reality of the problem. The number 1 reason for handing over a dog for rescue is now the inability to feed it. It is so bad that to my knowledge every dog refuge in Norfolk is now full. It's a bit of a disaster for the charities involved but it's left me wondering how bad this is going to get. The worry is obviously that people won't be handing children over because they can't afford to feed them, so what will happen to them? 

My concern is that we now have the most incompetent Government I've known in my lifetime and they still have 2 years to go. I fear that it will be too late by then for anyone to mend it. 

[Naturalcynic 631]

47 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The original reason for this thread was the cost of living. I help a little with a dog charity and in the last week have seen the stark reality of the problem. The number 1 reason for handing over a dog for rescue is now the inability to feed it. It is so bad that to my knowledge every dog refuge in Norfolk is now full. It's a bit of a disaster for the charities involved but it's left me wondering how bad this is going to get. The worry is obviously that people won't be handing children over because they can't afford to feed them, so what will happen to them? 

My concern is that we now have the most incompetent Government I've known in my lifetime and they still have 2 years to go. I fear that it will be too late by then for anyone to mend it. 

Presumably a lot of these are lockdown dogs whose selfish owners have become bored and fed-up with having to take them for walks in the rain and pick up their excrement.

[Naturalcynic 631]

13 hours ago, Well b back said:

 

Indeed, 1/3 of new nurses are being recruited from Africa, India and the America’s.

The problems will become worse every year as people live longer and longer. As the new cancer vaccines are introduced and it is now highly likely that in the next ten years MRNA technology will also become a cancer cure, people will be living well into their 100’s and more and more will need those hospital beds.

Unlike the government says the NHS is moving with the times. Many people that would have been in hospital, will instead be at home in ‘ virtual wards ‘. Of course you have seen little about this from the government as they don’t want you to know. The government will tell you all about the wastage in the NHS but not admit to how much of that is caused by them being clueless.

If people are going to live for longer then clearly the demands on the health services are going to increase yet further so surely there’s even more reason for a root and branch reform of the NHS which already consumes every penny that’s thrown at it and is constantly crying for more.  It’s inefficient, top heavy with excessive layers of management, hampered by over-regulation and governance thanks to Shipman and ambulance chasing lawyers, and attempts to do too much for a frequently ungrateful and over-expectant public rather than focussing on essential core services.  It’s a problem which has been worsening for decades under both Labour and Conservative governments.

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

48 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Presumably a lot of these are lockdown dogs whose selfish owners have become bored and fed-up with having to take them for walks in the rain and pick up their excrement.

Sorry, but read it again. They are people who quite simply cannot afford to feed their dog. The lockdown boom of bored dog owners wasn't a huge problem. This is. 

The other problem is that people who would previously considered adopting a dog can't afford to do so. 

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

On 24/12/2022 at 20:08, Van wink said:

There is no doubt that the NHS is under enormous pressure and there is also no doubt IMO that it will always be thus until we are able to change our lifestyles and dependancy upon it,  rather than taking responsibility for our own wellbeing. A difficult political reality but one which will need to be faced by whatever political party is in office. Recruitment and retention is of course an issue in any profession, but there a much bigger societal issue here. Hundreds of drunks turning up at A and E on a Friday night really is not what Aneuirin Bevan had in mind!

 

On 24/12/2022 at 20:18, Aggy said:

But the strikes aren’t about working conditions or how busy the nhs is etc., they’re about pay?

The NHS strikes are about far more than pay. Pay is actually the simplest part to solve (cheque book).

I believe they are simply that the nurses in particular have reached the end of their patience with catastrophic understaffing / overwork let alone pay and have reached the point where their only 'nuclear' stick has to be employed to change the situation.

Add another 100,000 nurses and less pressure on the system, smaller shifts and pay wouldn't be such a large issue.

As it is, in for penny in for a pound. The government can't win this as the NHS will collapse in the very near future as the strikes get more and damaging - and yes people will die. 

[horsefly 4,300]

On 24/12/2022 at 21:43, Aggy said:

So are nurses asking for 5 per cent above inflation or is that Tory propaganda?

See my problem isn’t that they want paying more, it’s the ridiculous request for a ridiculous amount. I know people working in scientific industries who have been doing it 2-3 years and still earn less than a nurses starting salary. If those people stop working, your food doesn’t get to a super market and you starve. Yet they get paid less than nurses, haven’t already had a 4.5 per cent pay rise, and aren’t demanding 17.5 per cent. 

Simple fact is you can support nurses asking for bet term conditions, you can even support them asking for a pay rise. You can do all of that and still think their demands are ridiculous. Isn’t all black and white as you like to make out whenever it comes to the nhs.

You do realise how these negotiations standardly work don't you? One side asks for a high percentage that they know they won't get, the other side suggests a low percentage that they know is unacceptable. Then they negotiate for a percentage somewhere in between. You really have to be something of a government sop to believe their completely disingenuous line that the nurses demand is unaffordable. They know full well that negotiations would achieve an outcome nowhere near the 19% starting figure which was arrived at by the Unions as a demonstration of the genuine extent to which they have lost income in real terms over the last decade or so. What is "ridiculous" is a government that refuses to enter into negotiation despite the fact that it provided evidence to the pay review body that inflation in 2022 would be max 4% rather than the 11% that turned out to be the case.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I was a National trade union secretary and was the advocate for contract negotiations.

As far as wages are concerned it is acknowledged that there are three arguments. Productivity, relativity and cost of living.

The NHS has a good argument for productivity. Relativity is not relevant unless the wages were always historically linked to others. And cost of living is the contentious one.

So for anyone to say what they are asking for is ridiculous is not basing that statement on anything other than meanness.

[Aggy 755]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

I was a National trade union secretary and was the advocate for contract negotiations.

As far as wages are concerned it is acknowledged that there are three arguments. Productivity, relativity and cost of living.

The NHS has a good argument for productivity. Relativity is not relevant unless the wages were always historically linked to others. And cost of living is the contentious one.

So for anyone to say what they are asking for is ridiculous is not basing that statement on anything other than meanness.

I think you’re retired KG. If you think anything under a 19 per cent pay rise is “mean” then I’d like to have worked for whoever employed you! 

[Aggy 755]

5 hours ago, horsefly said:

You do realise how these negotiations standardly work don't you? One side asks for a high percentage that they know they won't get, the other side suggests a low percentage that they know is unacceptable. Then they negotiate for a percentage somewhere in between. You really have to be something of a government sop to believe their completely disingenuous line that the nurses demand is unaffordable. They know full well that negotiations would achieve an outcome nowhere near the 19% starting figure which was arrived at by the Unions as a demonstration of the genuine extent to which they have lost income in real terms over the last decade or so. What is "ridiculous" is a government that refuses to enter into negotiation despite the fact that it provided evidence to the pay review body that inflation in 2022 would be max 4% rather than the 11% that turned out to be the case.

Absolutely. And had they gone in at c.11 and ended up 7 then there’d be nobody saying anything. As it is, while the majority of the population agree with a pay rise, loads (including within the nhs) think the amount demanded is silly. And then it becomes tricky for the government to handle. 

I’m not a Tory apologist by any stretch of the imagination, and who knows what they would have done anyway. But when the opening bid is so ridiculous, it’s difficult to get to the table. The reality is that no government would sign off on a public sector pay rise anywhere near 19 percent at the moment (a few months after a 4.5 per cent increase), when the majority of the population h would have been lucky to get 5, we’re in a cost of living crisis, and there are people earning less than a nurse’s starting salary who can’t feed or heat themselves.

 If it was a business deal, and someone made an offer like that, you’d walk away or go in at something equally ridiculously low and play hardball (which wouldn’t be a good look for a government either). Had the unions gone in at something more realistic, it would have been easier for everyone to get to the table, and the public support would have been even higher, making it more difficult for the government to ignore it. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Aggy

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

33 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I think you’re retired KG. If you think anything under a 19 per cent pay rise is “mean” then I’d like to have worked for whoever employed you! 

If you have a skill which nowadays requires you to attain the equivalent of a degree then you must be disgruntled when the margin you had over an unskilled worker has been eroded by no pay rises but rises in the minimum wage. 

So your argument has mathematical relevance. But if your employer just refuses to negotiate, you do not lower your claim. You hammer home the justification for it.

Of course they will not receive that amount all at once but a reasonable compromise can be achieved which would suit the Unions and NHS Trusts. But the Government will not budge. 

Unless you are a Barrister.

[horsefly 4,300]

36 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Absolutely. And had they gone in at c.11 and ended up 7 then there’d be nobody saying anything. As it is, while the majority of the population agree with a pay rise, loads (including within the nhs) think the amount demanded is silly

19% was specifically chosen as it was precisely the amount by which nurse pay has fallen in real terms since the Tories have been in power. They didn't just pluck 19% out of the air. It is what would be required if they were to be precisely where they were a decade ago in real pay terms. Other professions have done considerably better during that period. The nurse leaders have been very clear they are prepared to negotiate and very obviously would compromise. It is the government alone who point blank refuse to negotiate despite the fact that it has done so on at least 4 occasions previously where a pay review body (PRB) has been involved (and despite the fact that Hunt himself refused to accept a PRB recommendation when he was Health Secretary in 2014).

Edited December 26, 2022 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,300]

39 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I’m not a Tory apologist by any stretch of the imagination, and who knows what they would have done anyway. But when the opening bid is so ridiculous, it’s difficult to get to the table. The reality is that no government would sign off on a public sector pay rise anywhere near 19 percent at the moment (a few months after a 4.5 per cent increase), when the majority of the population h would have been lucky to get 5, we’re in a cost of living crisis, and there are people earning less than a nurse’s starting salary who can’t feed or heat themselves.

 If it was a business deal, and someone made an offer like that, you’d walk away or go in at something equally ridiculously low and play hardball (which wouldn’t be a good look for a government either). Had the unions gone in at something more realistic, it would have been easier for everyone to get to the table, and the public support would have been even higher, making it more difficult for the government to ignore it. 

I'm afraid being a Tory apologist is precisely what you're doing by repeating the utterly disingenuous Sunak claim that the Nurses would only accept an unaffordable 19% pay deal. I repeat, it's a starting point for negotiation picked out by the nursing unions because it represents precisely how much the nurses have lost out in real terms from previous Tory pay deals. 

As for your claim "If it was a business deal, and someone made an offer like that, you’d walk away or go in at something equally ridiculously low and play hardball". Do you mean a deal like the one Rolls Royce agreed: 

"Rolls-Royce car workers win record pay package worth up to 17.6% " https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64001956. 

Rolls Royce recognised that if they want to keep their workers at the company then they needed to award a pay rise that was merited. The Government is refusing to negotiate because it is trying to weaponize the nurses dispute to convince willing stooges like yourself that it is not their fault that the economy is in such a shocking state after 12 years of utterly incompetent Tory management.

[Aggy 755]

55 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I'm afraid being a Tory apologist is precisely what you're doing by repeating the utterly disingenuous Sunak claim that the Nurses would only accept an unaffordable 19% pay deal. I repeat, it's a starting point for negotiation picked out by the nursing unions because it represents precisely how much the nurses have lost out in real terms from previous Tory pay deals. 

As for your claim "If it was a business deal, and someone made an offer like that, you’d walk away or go in at something equally ridiculously low and play hardball". Do you mean a deal like the one Rolls Royce agreed: 

"Rolls-Royce car workers win record pay package worth up to 17.6% " https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64001956. 

Rolls Royce recognised that if they want to keep their workers at the company then they needed to award a pay rise that was merited. The Government is refusing to negotiate because it is trying to weaponize the nurses dispute to convince willing stooges like yourself that it is not their fault that the economy is in such a shocking state after 12 years of utterly incompetent Tory management.

 

Absolutely no interest in getting involved in your usual nonsense. Haven’t once said they’ll “only” accept 19 per cent and have in fact suggested more realistic starting and settlement figures.

The article you linked says staff got a ten per cent pay rise with a one off bonus. Presuming 10 per cent is the highest you could find to try and back your argument  (even in the private sector) I’d suggest it rather supports the idea that a demand for 19 per cent pay rise even as a starting point is ridiculous. 

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

If you have a skill which nowadays requires you to attain the equivalent of a degree then you must be disgruntled when the margin you had over an unskilled worker has been eroded by no pay rises but rises in the minimum wage. 

So your argument has mathematical relevance. But if your employer just refuses to negotiate, you do not lower your claim. You hammer home the justification for it.

Of course they will not receive that amount all at once but a reasonable compromise can be achieved which would suit the Unions and NHS Trusts. But the Government will not budge. 

Unless you are a Barrister.

Plenty of people with a degree who are in exactly the same boat. The example I gave in my first post - people with science degrees who have key roles in getting food  to supermarkets (and who were working as key workers throughout covid) earn less than a nurse’s starting pay. How do they feel hearing nurses demand we use their tax money to pay the nurses 19 per cent more (after a 4.5 per cent pay rise already in 2022) when they themselves earn less and haven’t had a pay rise anywhere near that.

And while I agree the government can and should come to the table, in some ways the demand for 19 per cent has made it easier for them to big up the ‘propaganda’ being spouted. Even if they agreed 9 per cent (still significantly above private sector average) they’d have agreed less than half the demanded amount and still look like the bad guys. So why not dig your heels in and see if you can grind the “opposition” down to 4 or 5 per cent? Can’t really justify it by saying the unions are playing hardball and then moan that the government is also playing hardball. 

For me, if the opening figure had been 12 per cent, finish up at 7, it looks better for the government, they’re more willing to come to the table and everyone gets a decent deal out of it. Fewer people believe the government’s arguments and the pressure increases on them to settle. Fewer people think the unions are being completely unreasonable. 

[horsefly 4,300]

1 minute ago, Aggy said:

Absolutely no interest in getting involved in your usual nonsense. Haven’t once said they’ll “only” accept 19 per cent and have in fact suggested more realistic starting and settlement figures.

The article you linked says staff got a ten per cent pay rise with a one off bonus. Presuming 10 per cent is the highest you could find to try and back your argument  (even in the private sector) I’d suggest it rather supports the idea that a demand for 19 per cent pay rise even as a starting point is ridiculous. 

Plenty of people with a degree who are in exactly the same boat. The example I gave in my first post - people with science degrees who have key roles in getting food  to supermarkets (and who were working as key workers throughout covid) earn less than a nurse’s starting pay. How do they feel hearing nurses demand we use their tax money to pay the nurses 19 per cent more (after a 4.5 per cent pay rise already in 2022) when they themselves earn less and haven’t had a pay rise anywhere near that.

And while I agree the government can and should come to the table, in some ways the demand for 19 per cent has made it easier for them to big up the ‘propaganda’ being spouted. Even if they agreed 9 per cent (still significantly above private sector average) they’d have agreed less than half the demanded amount and still look like the bad guys. So why not dig your heels in and see if you can grind the “opposition” down to 4 or 5 per cent? Can’t really justify it by saying the unions are playing hardball and then moan that the government is also playing hardball. 

For me, if the opening figure had been 12 per cent, finish up at 7, it looks better for the government, they’re more willing to come to the table and everyone gets a decent deal out of it. Fewer people believe the government’s arguments and the pressure increases on them to settle. Fewer people think the unions are being completely unreasonable. 

Absolutely no interest in getting involved in your usual nonsense. Haven’t once said they’ll “only” accept 19 per cent

In which case why be so stupid as to keep spouting the same tripe about 19% being unreasonable and making negotiation impossible? Repeat the same utterly spurious government garbage as much as you like, you're just a gullible stooge for Sunak whose only line has been exactly what you keep repeating, that 19% is unaffordable. Anyone who has bothered to think beyond the government's propaganda knows full well that the 19% figure was picked out by the unions because it represented precisely the figure that nurses pay has fallen in REAL terms since the Tories came to power. You would have to be pretty stupid to believe that it was nothing more than a way of saying to the government, "This is how much we have lost since you came to power, now make us an offer that doesn't continue to insult and exploit our proven commitment to the health of the people we care for". I know of not a single nurse who expects to get anything like 19%, what they want is for the government to acknowledge that yet another deal that amounts to yet another pay cut (given inflation) is no longer tolerable.

[KernowCanary 214]

“Don’t blame us for striking blame the government!”. That sounds like the sort of thing Mike Ashley would have said after a Newcastle relegation (“I’ve been spending money!, don’t blame me!”).

That is basically deflecting the blame off themselves onto others, like kids. They are enjoying their strikes and can even seem to afford doing it for six months so far, with their pathetic flags, whistles, coloured flares, megaphones and pathetic banners with slogans all while the idiots lap it all up even more so because of drivers horn-tooting to them, who don’t even use the service concerned.

Its clearly obvious why they keep refusing such generous offers, as they love the limelight and media attention their sick actions are creating.

Strikers Island we have become after Plague Island, Brexit Island and Sick Man of Europe Island.

I’m done with these depressing threads and will only bother talking about NCFC from now on. It’s got to the point it’s just not worth reading or posting in anymore, as everything is all negative without one little ounce of light.

Calling this a “crisis” is absurd as well. Read about what’s going on in Ukraine right now, that’s a crisis.

Edited December 26, 2022 by KernowCanary

[horsefly 4,300]

12 hours ago, KernowCanary said:

“Don’t blame us for striking blame the government!”. That sounds like the sort of thing Mike Ashley would have said after a Newcastle relegation (“I’ve been spending money!, don’t blame me!”).

That is basically deflecting the blame off themselves onto others, like kids. They are enjoying their strikes and can even seem to afford doing it for six months so far, with their pathetic flags, whistles, coloured flares, megaphones and pathetic banners with slogans all while the idiots lap it all up even more so because of drivers horn-tooting to them, who don’t even use the service concerned.

Its clearly obvious why they keep refusing such generous offers, as they love the limelight and media attention their sick actions are creating.

Strikers Island we have become after Plague Island, Brexit Island and Sick Man of Europe Island.

I’m done with these depressing threads and will only bother talking about NCFC from now on. It’s got to the point it’s just not worth reading or posting in anymore, as everything is all negative without one little ounce of light.

Calling this a “crisis” is absurd as well. Read about what’s going on in Ukraine right now, that’s a crisis.

Is this spoof or do you literally mean what you have written?

[Daz Sparks 1,154]

12 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Is this spoof or do you literally mean what you have written?

I think Rishi has hacked his account!

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

32 minutes ago, Daz Sparks said:

I think Rishi has hacked his account!

Just an observation on the nurses.

Isn't this situation EXACTLY what the Brexiteers wanted - huge labour shortages so essential workers such as the nurses can demand more money. Suggest a super-tax on all Brexiteers to pay for it. 20% should do it. 

I have far less sympathy for many other public worker groups (barring the lowest paid) - personally l'd sack and close all the railways and LRT (insolvent) and then hire on new contrasts. No different to any loss making private enterprise that can only pay what it can afford. After all the railways are not widely used nationally already (abut 8% of journeys) whereas the NHS is essential for all

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

On 24/12/2022 at 20:18, Aggy said:

But the strikes aren’t about working conditions or how busy the nhs is etc., they’re about pay?

You really haven't been paying attention, have you??  🙄

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

On 24/12/2022 at 21:43, Aggy said:

So are nurses asking for 5 per cent above inflation or is that Tory propaganda?

See my problem isn’t that they want paying more, it’s the ridiculous request for a ridiculous amount.

Except it isn't ridiculous is it when set in its proper context of 12 years of cuts in pay in real terms under these malign Tory governments.

The nurses know they haven't a hope in hell of getting a 19% rise but have chosen that as an opening shot for negotiations,  I presume largely symbolically, as a way of highlighting the fact that it is a figure that would almost restore their wages back to the level of 2010.

Even if they got the full 19% it would still mean that they had gone 12 years without a real terms rise and at a time when the cost of living is going through the roof, so even that position will be quickly eroded again.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

So are nurses asking for 5 per cent above inflation or is that Tory propaganda?

See my problem isn’t that they want paying more, it’s the ridiculous request for a ridiculous amount.

Its what they should have received compared to the private sector in terms of keeping their relativity to the economy. If you are that literal I doubt that you will ever understand how negotiations are carried out.

And it is just as much about the staffing levels in the NHS. When you are told that you will be in fact taking a wage cut against inflation and at the same time, having to work harder under tough circumstances, you will tend to get annoyed.

Who on earth on this planet thinks that our health system should be so bad. We are talking about saving lives, diagnosing illnesses and after care. Which seem to be dismissed, not just by Tory Governments, as unaffordable. While at the same time we can afford to increase defence spending including Trident, send Billions to Ukraine, HS2, Crossrail and still bail out the railways.

Morally inexcusable.

[Well b back 3,207]

Manchester hospitals.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-64117152

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

On 25/12/2022 at 11:01, Naturalcynic said:

If people are going to live for longer then clearly the demands on the health services are going to increase yet further so surely there’s even more reason for a root and branch reform of the NHS which already consumes every penny that’s thrown at it and is constantly crying for more.  It’s inefficient, top heavy with excessive layers of management, hampered by over-regulation and governance thanks to Shipman and ambulance chasing lawyers, and attempts to do too much for a frequently ungrateful and over-expectant public rather than focussing on essential core services.  It’s a problem which has been worsening for decades under both Labour and Conservative governments.

you can add the smug self entitlement of the public to this list who thinks that they do not have to take the relatives they delivered to hospitals back to their homes.

they are rung up and informed that their dad/mum/auntie/uncle etc. is ready to go back home able to walk and or be in their own bed.

here are some excuses; 'we can't pick him up we are about to have a holiday'.....there is nothing to eat in the fridge we have not been shopping'......'the electricity was switched off and we informed the council that there is no heat'( involving third parties)......'there is nobody looking after him and his need for care'..... and this one.... 'can you not look after him in hospital for a bit longer, we all have paid our NI and deserve him/her being looked after.

the public expectation and entitlement is killing the NHS. It is not a holding pen for patients who are better and should have been on a recuperation ward, such as the now long shut Henderson ward was able to provide.

But I agree with your analysis above, political party politics and their allures in power are the central problem, they are unable to make policies that work.

 

[Daz Sparks 1,154]

I work in the private sector, and in no way have received a pay rise to match inflation. The following is about all I can do about it.

 

[horsefly 4,300]

Tory "backbencher of the year 2022" shows why he is so loved by his colleagues yet again. This is the same rancid specimen who claimed the poor could easily survive on 30p meals:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/tory-mp-claims-nurses-using-food-banks-have-something-wrong-with-their-own-finances/ar-AA15NK5B?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=34c1ea648518446c8a178a66317fea32

Tory MP claims nurses using food banks have ‘something wrong with their own finances’

 

Tory MP Lee Anderson has been criticised for claiming nurses who use food banks while earning £30,000 a year “can’t manage money” properly.

“I heard some nonsense a few weeks back that nurses were actually stealing food off patients’ plates”, he said.

“Anybody earning 30 odd grand a year, which most nurses are, using food banks, then they’ve got something wrong with their own finances.”

The Royal College of Nurses hit back with statistics that a quarter of hospitals had been forced to set up food banks for staff.

Can we assume that Anderson returns £54,144 from his MP's salary, and £24.70 a day from his MP's daily food allowance? After all, as he says, anyone should be able to manage perfectly on £30,000 a year and 30p a day for food.