Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
NorthCarolinaYellow

Squad v. 2020-2021

Recommended Posts

Assuming Gibbs + Tomkinson are kept around, Rowe + Springett get loaned out, and 0 new incomings (which is what I'm predicting) ... it's interesting to compare what we might have  with 2020-2021:

 

2020-2021

GK: Krul, McGovern, Barden, Nyland

LB: Quintillà, Giannoulis, Sørensen

RB: Aarons, Mumba 

CB: Hanley, Gibson, Zimmerman, Omobamidele

CM: Skipp, McLean, Rupp, Vrančić, Tettey

AM/W: Buendía, Cantwell, Stiepermann, Martin, Dowell, Płacheta, Hernández

FW: Pukki, Hugill, Idah

 

2022-2023

GK: Krul, Gunn, McGovern

LB: Giannoulis, McCallum

RB: Aarons, Byram 

CB: Hanley, Gibson, Omobamidele, Tomkinson

CM: McLean, Sørensen, Sara, Hayden, Gibbs

AM/W: Cantwell, Rashica, Dowell, Hernández, Sinani

FW: Pukki, Hugill, Idah, Sargent

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think in Buendia you have a massively talented player who is better than anyone we've had in this squad since. But I think we have a more talented squad overall now. Our average ability if plotted on a chart would probably be higher, but would fail to hit the peaks the last squad did having lost Buendia. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I certainly don't think we're worse off. Big, big question mark over the central midfield and whether or not the midfield can collectively replace Buendia (we got up the first year without him in red-hot form).

All about that central area for me. If we've got that recruitment right then the team looks like a real challenger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Mason has said there's question marks over the new signings, Sara especially with it being big move to a New country. I'd also say there's somewhat of a question mark over the head of Rashica too. Rashica showing the form he's proven capable of in Germany is one of the Championship's top performers and a massive boost to our promotion hopes.

The squad looks more ready to play the more defensively solid/high pressing game than it did when Smith took over that's for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Midfield is (currently) far worse. Maybe the new signings will come good but I won't hold my breath after last summer. We still haven't replaced Vrancic and Tettey with similar quality, let alone Skipp and Buendia. Even Cantwell isn't as good as 2020 Cantwell.

I'm yet to see anything from Rashica or Sargent to suggest they're any better than Placheta or Stiepermann. I know people have high hopes for them at this level but there's no guarantee of success.

Above all, the 2020 team had a clear philosophy with a system that they all knew intricately. They were a well oil machine, greater than the sum of its parts. The current squad is pretty much starting from square one.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Midfield is (currently) far worse. Maybe the new signings will come good but I won't hold my breath after last summer. We still haven't replaced Vrancic and Tettey with similar quality, let alone Skipp and Buendia. Even Cantwell isn't as good as 2020 Cantwell.

I'm yet to see anything from Rashica or Sargent to suggest they're any better than Placheta or Stiepermann. I know people have high hopes for them at this level but there's no guarantee of success.

Above all, the 2020 team had a clear philosophy with a system that they all knew intricately. They were a well oil machine, greater than the sum of its parts. The current squad is pretty much starting from square one.

I stopped reading when you said placheta and Steipermann were better than sargent and Rashica 😂😂😂😂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Yobocop said:

I stopped reading when you said placheta and Steipermann were better than sargent and Rashica 😂😂😂😂

That's not because I think Placheta and Stiepermann are (or were) any good. I just think we signed a whole bunch of dross last summer. I hope to be proven wrong, but I don't believe I will be. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Petriix said:

That's not because I think Placheta and Stiepermann are (or were) any good. I just think we signed a whole bunch of dross last summer. I hope to be proven wrong, but I don't believe I will be. 

Think we have to give the dross a chance to flourish in the same level you are judging our Better players if you catch my drift 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Yobocop said:

Think we have to give the dross a chance to flourish in the same level you are judging our Better players if you catch my drift 

Alternatively we could pick some other players... But, yes, they get a chance to prove me wrong. I just haven't seen any evidence that they will. I'm far more interested in seeing what Sinani has to offer or whether Hernandez can stay fit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All comes down to Hayden and Sara. If they are even 75% as good for us as Emi and Skipp that season we’ll go up, as the quality in the rest of the squad is higher (IMHO). This is the season that we really need to see some energy and desire from Rashica, Sargent and Idah, if those 3 can up their game to meet the Champs head-on then we should be ok.

I just have nasty memories of every game at this level since we bought Emi that we played without him. Our record was so poor at this level when wasn’t available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we have to acknowledge that there’s some nostalgia and rose tinting when we look back at past glories. Vrancic and Stiepermann had moments of legend, but were equally sometimes either anonymous or culpable. The number of times I groaned as someone came up behind Mario and stole the ball from him were, well, there were quite a few.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Petriix said:

Midfield is (currently) far worse. Maybe the new signings will come good but I won't hold my breath after last summer. We still haven't replaced Vrancic and Tettey with similar quality, let alone Skipp and Buendia. Even Cantwell isn't as good as 2020 Cantwell.

I'm yet to see anything from Rashica or Sargent to suggest they're any better than Placheta or Stiepermann. I know people have high hopes for them at this level but there's no guarantee of success.

Above all, the 2020 team had a clear philosophy with a system that they all knew intricately. They were a well oil machine, greater than the sum of its parts. The current squad is pretty much starting from square one.

Enough with the re-writing of history. Vrancic was OK that season and lost his place to Dowell who scored 5 in 12. He is deemed surplus to requirements at Stoke already.

Stiepermann wasn't involved really at all that season. How many starts from Tettey that season? What was there to replace? He was kept out the side by McLean. How do you know This Cantwell is worse than 2020 Cantwell? He hasn't played yet. Last seasons failing was down to potential illness, both mental and physical, not about a fall in talent. 

You are comparing 2018 Steipermann playing in the Championship to 2021 Rashica playing in the Premiership, All Rashica has to do is score a few goals and set up a few and he would have made more of a contribution to the season than Stiepermann in 2020. 

Edited by hertfordyellow
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Buendia and Skipp are absolutely elite talents in the Champ.

Their gulf in class is far more impactful than a potentially marginal improvement in overall quality across the rest of the squad. 

Last summer, I bought into the narrative that we could improve by selling Buendia (who clearly wanted out anyway) and investing across the squad, thus bringing the overall quality up even if the individual talent dipped. That was clearly wrong. 

On a positive note, can we hope that a revitalised Cantwell and a supposedly PL-level Rashica and Hayden can make the difference? 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, kirku said:

Buendia and Skipp are absolutely elite talents in the Champ.

Their gulf in class is far more impactful than a potentially marginal improvement in overall quality across the rest of the squad. 

Last summer, I bought into the narrative that we could improve by selling Buendia (who clearly wanted out anyway) and investing across the squad, thus bringing the overall quality up even if the individual talent dipped. That was clearly wrong. 

On a positive note, can we hope that a revitalised Cantwell and a supposedly PL-level Rashica and Hayden can make the difference? 

Having a team built around two class players is risky. If they get injured, as we found, the team just doesn't operate. We were actually lucky last time round that those two were practically ever present. Better to have a raised level across the squad so at different times in the season, different players are hitting form and delivering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Having a team built around two class players is risky. If they get injured, as we found, the team just doesn't operate. We were actually lucky last time round that those two were practically ever present. Better to have a raised level across the squad so at different times in the season, different players are hitting form and delivering.

Didn't pan out that way last year.

We gambled that Webber and the recruitment team would be able to pick up numerous players around the £10m mark who would be able to raise the level of the squad to have the impact you mention - they didn't. 

Hull have just sold someone most of us have never heard of for £17m. The cost of significantly raising the quality of the squad is beyond our means.

Even at Championship level, it's better to have one £30m player than 3 £10m ones. Or taking the financial aspect out of it, one elite weapon (for this level) than 3 punts.

Edited by kirku
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, hertfordyellow said:

Enough with the re-writing of history. Vrancic was OK that season and lost his place to Dowell who scored 5 in 12. He is deemed surplus to requirements at Stoke already.

Stiepermann wasn't involved really at all that season. How many starts from Tettey that season? What was there to replace? He was kept out the side by McLean. How do you know This Cantwell is worse than 2020 Cantwell? He hasn't played yet. Last seasons failing was down to potential illness, both mental and physical, not about a fall in talent. 

You are comparing 2018 Steipermann playing in the Championship to 2021 Rashica playing in the Premiership, All Rashica has to do is score a few goals and set up a few and he would have made more of a contribution to the season than Stiepermann in 2020. 

We had Dowell already, so he's not an improvement vs 2020. I'm not claiming that Vrancic in 2022 would be the answer, just that we haven't added anyone better as that deep-lying playmaker since he left.

Likewise with Tettey, we're hoping that a currently injured loanee will finally fill the void in the squad of a reliable (if unspectacular) CDM. It's the overall strength of the squad that has diminished. 

I can honestly say at this point I would rather have the money still in the bank than have signed a single one of our recruits from last season. If we'd given Mumba and Martin a whole season of Premier League football rather than signing Rashica and loaning Williams we'd currently be in a better position.

Worst of all we've significantly downgraded the manager and lost all continuity from our previous success.

You seem have a great deal of faith (based on little evidence) that these current players are going to do well. I'll gladly be proven wrong, but I'm not seeing anything to convince me at this point.

I actually think the more we persevere with Rashica, the more harm we do to the cohesion of the team as he has (so far) totally failed to learn how to link up with Pukki. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, kirku said:

Didn't pan out that way last year.

We gambled that Webber and the recruitment team would be able to pick up numerous players around the £10m mark who would be able to raise the level of the squad to have the impact you mention - they didn't. 

Hull have just sold someone most of us have never heard of for £17m. The cost of significantly raising the quality of the squad is beyond our means.

Even at Championship level, it's better to have one £30m player than 3 £10m ones. Or taking the financial aspect out of it, one elite weapon (for this level) than 3 punts.

I think it didn't pan out because the players were either wrong or didn't deliver. It worked in 2020/21 but it was risky. If both had been injured then we wouldn't have made the play offs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Petriix said:

We had Dowell already, so he's not an improvement vs 2020. I'm not claiming that Vrancic in 2022 would be the answer, just that we haven't added anyone better as that deep-lying playmaker since he left.

Likewise with Tettey, we're hoping that a currently injured loanee will finally fill the void in the squad of a reliable (if unspectacular) CDM. It's the overall strength of the squad that has diminished. 

I can honestly say at this point I would rather have the money still in the bank than have signed a single one of our recruits from last season. If we'd given Mumba and Martin a whole season of Premier League football rather than signing Rashica and loaning Williams we'd currently be in a better position.

Worst of all we've significantly downgraded the manager and lost all continuity from our previous success.

You seem have a great deal of faith (based on little evidence) that these current players are going to do well. I'll gladly be proven wrong, but I'm not seeing anything to convince me at this point.

I actually think the more we persevere with Rashica, the more harm we do to the cohesion of the team as he has (so far) totally failed to learn how to link up with Pukki. 

No I'm not talking about 2022 Vrancic, he was displaced by Dowell in 2020/2021 because he wasn't performing and Dowell was, Dowell came after Vrancic and is still available to us. Vrancic wasn't a deep-lying playmaker, he played the 10 position in 20/21. Dowell essentially replaced him so was an upgrade, his stats prove that.

As for Tettey, there was no need to replace 20/21 Tettey as he wasn't really involved. He was kept out of the team by a combination of Skipp and McLean. He made 5 starts that season, he was already replaced.

Quote

"If we'd given Mumba and Martin a whole season of Premier League football rather than signing Rashica and loaning Williams we'd currently be in a better position."

This is just wild. There is absolutely no basis for this in what they have done for Norwich or on loan.

Quote

Worst of all we've significantly downgraded the manager and lost all continuity from our previous success.

This is an opinion that hasn't allowed for fair comparison. Again re-writing history, Farke had moved completely away from Farkeball last season. Even Farke had lost continuity with Farke.

I get it, you don't like supporting this team, but not all of us lack objectivity.

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

I think it didn't pan out because the players were either wrong or didn't deliver. It worked in 2020/21 but it was risky. If both had been injured then we wouldn't have made the play offs

If de Bruyne and Rodri had been missing for City, they probably wouldn't have won the league.

There are key players in all squads, no matter how deep they are, that's football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think our squad is any better. The keys to that success was having players that were a class above the entire rest of the league. Those players were Skipp, Buendia, Pukki.

 

Currently we only have Pukki and he is 2yrs older and getting to the end of his career peak. 

 

Hayden is a good signing but still not imo the level of player that Skipp is. Buendia was the absolute star player of it all and we haven't and very likely won't come close to replacing him unfortunately. 

 

The best we can do is hope we sign one of the best CAMs for the Championship to supply Pukki and bring goals to the team themselves (much like what Fulham did with getting Harry Wilson to provide the ammunition for Mitrovic).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Petriix said:

That's not because I think Placheta and Stiepermann are (or were) any good. I just think we signed a whole bunch of dross last summer. I hope to be proven wrong, but I don't believe I will be. 

I mean if you can't just watch Placheta play for 20 minutes and then watch Rashica play for 20 minutes and not comfortably see the difference in ability...

I think Sargent is a difficult Stieperman comparison. Stieps delivered for us at this level too, even if some didn't like them. I fancy Sargent to have a good season although I'm not entirely sure what I'm basing that on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I mean if you can't just watch Placheta play for 20 minutes and then watch Rashica play for 20 minutes and not comfortably see the difference in ability...

I think Sargent is a difficult Stieperman comparison. Stieps delivered for us at this level too, even if some didn't like them. I fancy Sargent to have a good season although I'm not entirely sure what I'm basing that on.

That's the point though: Rashica and Placheta are basically identical in terms of end product. As far as 'weapons' go, they're no different. [Ok, there's definitely a degree of hyperbole in the comparison, but I'd absolutely rather we hadn't broken our transfer record on Rashica.]

At least Sargent is young enough to have a bit more time to come good. Stiepermann was clumsy and awkward, but in a very effective way, certainly in 18-19, less so in 20-21.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's slightly bizarre is that with Hayden and Sara coming in our squad is already arguably stronger than last seasons...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, kirku said:

If de Bruyne and Rodri had been missing for City, they probably wouldn't have won the league.

There are key players in all squads, no matter how deep they are, that's football.

Of course but there are levels to what extent say two players can have on the team. In my opinion we would be miles off with those two missing, in Man City, they would be still close as there were other quality options to come in

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...