Full circle and moving forwards

[Newtopia 519]

19 hours ago, Petriix said:

Let's go back to the end of last season. We'd won the league with a record points haul. Farke signed a new 4 year contract. We had an identity and a clear vision running through the club. We had the biggest transfer budget in our history. 

Fast forward to today. Farke is gone. The identity is gone. The money is gone. Unlike our previous relegation the assets are gone too. It's hard to be positive about the future at this point.

Regardless of where you lay the blame, things don't look great. I'll reserve judgement until we see what the squad looks like after the summer. After 10 games next season we'll have an idea where we are. I fear we're facing a significant decline. 

It is the problem through out football, if a team loses too many games the emotions become binary, and we end up ignoring the things which are right and stop trusting the processes and values.  
I am optimistic for next year, I think the biggest risk is Dean Smith wanting to play in a different style, and we compromise too much on our principles.

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

20 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Hi Lakey, I do love your optimism.  I have nothing against that, but in the interest of debate do allow me to totally pull apart your OP.  Nothing personal but I do feel you are overlooking areas of real concern. 

The Webber era is plainly coming to an end

Agreed, but think there are still some skirmishes to come on this because of the lack of good corporate governance at the Club.

but overall there have been more positives than negatives.

TBH, not entirely convinced of this statement.  For a Football Club, the overriding assessment of how well you are doing is on the pitch.  In that respect realistically we are back where we started! At the moment I think the squad is in a worse position than when Webber came in, albeit with some as yet unproven talent waiting in the wings, but they have to deliver before your statement can be unqualified.

So presuming he leaves now, what will his legacy be?  A strong club with loads of very decent young players, a quality manager and assistant, good finances and a club with loads of potential to do well again.

The young players have not yet proven themselves on the pitch.  The manager has yet to prove he can get the team playing in a confident manner.  The assistant has a good track record, but further success depends on how his knowledge is used by the manager.  The balance sheet is relatively strong for a football club, there are parachute payments to break the impact of relegation, but once again the model we operate under has proven to not provide sufficient finance to break into the EPL as a relatively permanent member. The potential remains but as you will see below, I am not convinced the club is now in a position to make the most of it.

but he has shown the way forwards and we are still in a good place.

Has he? I assume by this you mean that a long serving Sporting Director is more important than allowing the man in charge of team affairs ("the manager") free reign over all football matters.  The very fact we seem to be losing this particular Sporting Manager seems to suggest it is not the way forward we thought it was going to be.  Sporting Directors seem to have bigger ego's than the managers they supposedly employ!

Some people have been droning on about how the club is falling apart. Ridiculous. So there has been a turn over in staff - happens in all walks of life in all sorts of businesses.

Once again I will get on my favoured hobby horse.  Corporate Governance at the club is a mess.  It is way off where best practise says it should be.  No Chair, no CEO, no accountability anywhere, which for a PLC organisation is criminal.  If governance was better, the Board could hold the executive to account for the increased turnover in senior positions (and this is where I take issue with your statement - we are not talking junior staff, but relatively senior people some of whom have made a success of their time at the club as evidenced by them going on to similar positions elsewhere).  In addition the debacle over BK8 would not have happened.  The latter farce and the incident over the weekend also show the club have lost touch with the fans, otherwise the article and the subsequent fracas outside the main entrance would not have happened.  All the signs are there that the club is indeed falling apart.   

Financially we are still strong, the infrastructure of the club is superb compared to five years ago

Colney has been improved, but we have missed a major opportunity to improve the ground.  The cost of capital has been incredibly low over the past ten years, and yet no major improvement when it was needed most.  This is now borne out by the 70% salary budget limit on turnover that looks increasingly likely to be implemented within 5 years.  We will be hamstrung by not making the most of increased capacity on match days and the associated hospitality income that would come with it.  It is currently impossible for us to be a top 26 club based on income now if all other clubs attract 90% capacity; it makes everything we try and do from now on so much harder!  

and we have loads of good players.

We have about 5 proven good players!  Which I would argue is not loads!

and we have a stable ownership at the club that repeatedly rides these storms out and keep the progression of the club going in a good direction.

Our two major shareholders are both in their 80's and are looking increasingly frail, some may even argue they are showing a few signs of senility.  They could drop dead at any moment and have been issuing statements that seem to suggest they still have no real succession plan in place given the flip-flopping that has been revealed in recent public statements.  Even Foulger seems to be hiving his shares off into a family trust, which again is unproven to have the same sense of support that he has, no matter what the trust deed says.  As for riding out storms, it is said publicly outside of our NCFC bubble that the club is a joke.  Yes, the willingness of the supporters to accept yet another relegation does help the club ride out storms.  However there are real signs that patience is wearing thin, not just on social media but by the increasingly empty seats at matches.

the issue is always how we move forwards

We await the post-season statements from the club, if Webber does go as a result of the current issues then Ward will certainly have to go too (which I have set out very clearly reasons in other threads has to happen otherwise any sense of there being even a smidgeon of corporate governance at the club has gone).  There will be a need a to appoint a very strong CEO and confirmation of the Sporting Director model with a strong appointment there as well.  That is a lot of work for the club to do in a short space of time with a relatively inexperienced remaining executive and a board that I would argue is well past its best.  So, yes, there are issues over moving forward, some really big issues which I do not think the club is in a good position to overcome!

The club is bigger than Webber, Webber going is not a disaster, 

Absolutely agree that should be the position of the first part of the statements, but unfortunately due to imperfect corporate governance, it is not well placed to operate without him.  I am feeling extremely uneasy over what the next few months are going to bring and I am usually a Percy Positive, but at the moment I am miles off that.  Note that I have not said Smith & Jones should go, but they do need to change their approach to how the club is run a Board and Executive level and need to make some key decisions over what their succession policy is and to stick with that once decided to remove further uncertainty.

I apologise if that makes some people queasy, but I really think a degree of realism is called for with significant changes in the corridors of Carrow Road before we really see the Club stride forward confidently.

 

 

Post of the year 👍👏👏

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,232]

hogesar     4,550

•  
  •  

Posted 8 hours ago

   10 hours ago,  Duncan Edwards said: 

Omobamidele is surely worth a fair few quid, isn’t he? 

Equally, signing Pukki on a free and firing us to two Premier League promotions could arguably account for a large proportion of the circa £140 million in parachute payments, to counter @Parma Ham's gone mouldy latest post above.

 

————————

Both perfectly valid points @Duncan Edwards and @hogesar…

’mischievous’ like I said….….

The culture of playing young players and giving them a career chance as part of a sporting pathway and narrative would also certainly have a strong ‘intangible goodwill’ value. 

I would counter-counter that Farke played more than a small part in that too. Certainly in real world delivery. 

Important for balance to reflect on what has actually happened though, rather than presentation, polemic or common new CEO modus operandi.

We are trustees, not employees. 

Parma 

[komakino 274]

1 hour ago, Newtopia said:

It is the problem through out football, if a team loses too many games the emotions become binary, and we end up ignoring the things which are right and stop trusting the processes and values.  
I am optimistic for next year, I think the biggest risk is Dean Smith wanting to play in a different style, and we compromise too much on our principles.

The risk has to be taken. 

From what I've been told, Smith is highly rated within the staff and players, more so than Farke. One would think he will bring a more pragmatic style to our play which I think is desperately needed. Football is a results business. Farkeball was great in the Championship when you had the personnel to play it, though without Emi it didn't get results. Fine margins. However, we would never have the quality to play that at the highest level, so we need to be more realistic and have a style of play that can be built upon and not get players to play in a style that is beyond them. 

There is no 'Norwich way' of playing football, that is a myth. Ditto West Ham and so on. So thankfully, we have no principles to limit us in that respect. 

I just hope that Smith has more influence than Farke did on transfers, as Webber always had the final say. One would think that he would not tolerate Webber's 'magic beans', though speaking to a staff member earlier this week, they expected Webber to leave in the summer, though that was just their opinion and nothing more. A Smith/Adams combination would be a fresh start. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by komakino

[shefcanary 2,444]

2 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

Post of the year 👍👏👏

Thanks for the acknowledgement, but I wish I hadn't had to write it though Ken!

Edited April 28, 2022 by shefcanary

[Mengo 825]

8 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Thanks for the acknowledgement, but I wish I hadn't had to write it though Ken!

Shef (someone had to say it) percy positive. Thanks again 👍💯

[Mello Yello 2,302]

Ever decreasing circles....

[shefcanary 2,444]

12 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Ever decreasing circles....

Indeed, the downward circle of despond.  If someone doesn't break this circle soon, we will be drowning.  

[Mello Yello 2,302]

6 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Indeed, the downward circle of despond.  If someone doesn't break this circle soon, we will be drowning.  

That's got a certain ring to it.....

[Petriix 2,852]

2 hours ago, komakino said:

The risk has to be taken. 

From what I've been told, Smith is highly rated within the staff and players, more so than Farke. One would think he will bring a more pragmatic style to our play which I think is desperately needed. Football is a results business. Farkeball was great in the Championship when you had the personnel to play it, though without Emi it didn't get results. Fine margins. However, we would never have the quality to play that at the highest level, so we need to be more realistic and have a style of play that can be built upon and not get players to play in a style that is beyond them. 

There is no 'Norwich way' of playing football, that is a myth. Ditto West Ham and so on. So thankfully, we have no principles to limit us in that respect. 

I just hope that Smith has more influence than Farke did on transfers, as Webber always had the final say. One would think that he would not tolerate Webber's 'magic beans', though speaking to a staff member earlier this week, they expected Webber to leave in the summer, though that was just their opinion and nothing more. A Smith/Adams combination would be a fresh start. 

I just can't agree with this. Under Farke we had an identity. Under Smith we're shambolic. I've witnessed this 'pragmatic' approach. It seems to involve hoofing the ball straight back to the opposition repeatedly.

I will always maintain that had we continued with the system from last season (never signed Gilmour, never switched to a 4-3-3 and retained more of the players we had) we would have comfortably stayed up in the same vein as Brentford.

People love to repeat the line that 'Farkeball doesn't work in the Premier League' as if it's objective fact. It's not. What is fact is that trying to reinvent ourselves has led to relegation. It's only reasonable to speculate that not doing so may have proved more successful. 

[komakino 274]

9 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I just can't agree with this. Under Farke we had an identity. Under Smith we're shambolic. I've witnessed this 'pragmatic' approach. It seems to involve hoofing the ball straight back to the opposition repeatedly.

I will always maintain that had we continued with the system from last season (never signed Gilmour, never switched to a 4-3-3 and retained more of the players we had) we would have comfortably stayed up in the same vein as Brentford.

People love to repeat the line that 'Farkeball doesn't work in the Premier League' as if it's objective fact. It's not. What is fact is that trying to reinvent ourselves has led to relegation. It's only reasonable to speculate that not doing so may have proved more successful. 

You have to differentiate Farke in The Championship and Farke in the EPL. 

I agree we totally had an identity under Farke once we got going, though that took quite a while let's not forget. However, in the Top Flight, he was a disaster and that was very sad to see. You need a high quality of personnel to play his type of game successfully in the EPL and we would never have the money to do that, at least under the current regime. 

Smith on the other hand has had no money to spend whatsoever - which is a disgrace - and a squad which many feel is worse than the previous year with some very suspect purchases from our SD. Was Smith meant to play Farkeball with a group of players that have shown can't play it in a million years? Of course not. 

The football is far from great under Smith. But they are not only not his players, many of them should never have been in the first place and have no place in any squad in the Top Tier. 

As I previously said, Smith is highly rated at CR. Once he can assemble his own squad for next season, then it is fair to compare Farkeball and whatever Smithball will be. But the facts are that we have to have a different approach to what was played before if we went up again to stay there. 

You will see a more balanced game next season IF Smith is allowed to bring in players who he trusts and can do a job not only in The Championship, but potentially in the EPL. What does concern me is if his budget is so poor, he will be overly compromised. 

Forget what is going on now, as this season was done a long time ago. I'm intrigued to see what happens next season and hopefully we can have a squad with ambition and we can tear off our lightweight tag and go places. 

Give Smith a chance, because the coach of Norwich City is a very difficult gig that many others would not tolerate. 

[Midlands Yellow 4,050]

I’ll try and offer some words of wisdom later but must go to work now. 

[king canary 7,654]

59 minutes ago, komakino said:

You have to differentiate Farke in The Championship and Farke in the EPL. 

I agree we totally had an identity under Farke once we got going, though that took quite a while let's not forget. However, in the Top Flight, he was a disaster and that was very sad to see. You need a high quality of personnel to play his type of game successfully in the EPL and we would never have the money to do that, at least under the current regime. 

Smith on the other hand has had no money to spend whatsoever - which is a disgrace - and a squad which many feel is worse than the previous year with some very suspect purchases from our SD. Was Smith meant to play Farkeball with a group of players that have shown can't play it in a million years? Of course not. 

The football is far from great under Smith. But they are not only not his players, many of them should never have been in the first place and have no place in any squad in the Top Tier. 

As I previously said, Smith is highly rated at CR. Once he can assemble his own squad for next season, then it is fair to compare Farkeball and whatever Smithball will be. But the facts are that we have to have a different approach to what was played before if we went up again to stay there. 

You will see a more balanced game next season IF Smith is allowed to bring in players who he trusts and can do a job not only in The Championship, but potentially in the EPL. What does concern me is if his budget is so poor, he will be overly compromised. 

Forget what is going on now, as this season was done a long time ago. I'm intrigued to see what happens next season and hopefully we can have a squad with ambition and we can tear off our lightweight tag and go places. 

Give Smith a chance, because the coach of Norwich City is a very difficult gig that many others would not tolerate. 

I think this is a really good overview. 

Smith deserves the same chance Farke got to establish his identity- Farke got a full season with players bought for his style before he began to deliver the 'Farkeball' we came to love. So Smith needs some time in the Championship with some players bought to fit his style before we can claim whether there is an identity or not.

[shefcanary 2,444]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I think this is a really good overview. 

Smith deserves the same chance Farke got to establish his identity- Farke got a full season with players bought for his style before he began to deliver the 'Farkeball' we came to love. So Smith needs some time in the Championship with some players bought to fit his style before we can claim whether there is an identity or not.

As it stands my view is only Deano can save us here.  Hope he has the stomach for it ...   

[littleyellowbirdie 2,582]

18 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I can only assume that David McNally's pay off came with a NDA and he committed not to talk about his time at the club, because he's surely had to bite his tongue a few times.

I know that he did once point out on twitter that  Naismith only became a problem because his successors failed to take us back up at first attempt, and we do have to acknowledge that under McNally we achieved 2 promotions out of a possible 2. Every other season was in the top flight.

He may have a point. Perhaps he would have taken us back up.

 

McNally jumped; he wasn't pushed. He made those decisions, we got relegated, he created the financial burden, and then he walked away. That's not to take away from his achievements either, but that definitely gives him no right to criticise his successors for failing in a task that he was unwilling, or judged himself unable, to tackle. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Petriix 2,852]

3 hours ago, komakino said:

You have to differentiate Farke in The Championship and Farke in the EPL. 

I agree we totally had an identity under Farke once we got going, though that took quite a while let's not forget. However, in the Top Flight, he was a disaster and that was very sad to see. You need a high quality of personnel to play his type of game successfully in the EPL and we would never have the money to do that, at least under the current regime. 

Smith on the other hand has had no money to spend whatsoever - which is a disgrace - and a squad which many feel is worse than the previous year with some very suspect purchases from our SD. Was Smith meant to play Farkeball with a group of players that have shown can't play it in a million years? Of course not. 

The football is far from great under Smith. But they are not only not his players, many of them should never have been in the first place and have no place in any squad in the Top Tier. 

As I previously said, Smith is highly rated at CR. Once he can assemble his own squad for next season, then it is fair to compare Farkeball and whatever Smithball will be. But the facts are that we have to have a different approach to what was played before if we went up again to stay there. 

You will see a more balanced game next season IF Smith is allowed to bring in players who he trusts and can do a job not only in The Championship, but potentially in the EPL. What does concern me is if his budget is so poor, he will be overly compromised. 

Forget what is going on now, as this season was done a long time ago. I'm intrigued to see what happens next season and hopefully we can have a squad with ambition and we can tear off our lightweight tag and go places. 

Give Smith a chance, because the coach of Norwich City is a very difficult gig that many others would not tolerate. 

I appreciate your detailed reply; it's great to be able to disagree with intelligent and well reasoned discussion.

I don't agree with your assertion:

Quote

You need a high quality of personnel to play his type of game successfully in the EPL and we would never have the money to do that, at least under the current regime.

We are talking about winning 3 more games than we've managed this season, not an insurmountable task. I fully believe that the difference of simply making fewer changes and retaining that continuity would have achieved that. Slightly better recruitment, possibly slightly better luck...

You're right that it's all about next season, and had been for a long time. But I don't understand this idea that Smith will somehow be constructing a new team over the summer. We'll have extremely limited funds and we have already had too high a turnover of players. Our best hope is that we sign 3-4 decent players, probably at the expense of selling Aarons and Cantwell. He has to work with the players we already have.

I have repeatedly said that I'll reserve judgement until 10 games into next season. I'm simply saying that I'm worried by the current trends - for the reasons I outlined.