At what point can the club sack Smith and Shakespeare?

[ged in the onion bag 857]

9 minutes ago, Inch High aka Inchy.. said:

Because people have a differing opinion to yours that makes them stupid? Do you apply that logic to the rest of your life?

Do you accuse your partner of being stupid? My wife wouldn't take that more than a couple of times.

Well he is right and yes in this case they are stupid!  Taking such a view on the very limited evidence so far is evidently silly!

[Capt. Pants 4,277]

What he won't get is the patience owed to Farke due to his two Championship titles.

As I recall he's only on a 2.5 year contract so he'll get this season but will need a good first 10 games next season to keep his job.

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

6 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

And then...

…proving what, exactly?  Mainly just that football is dreadfully short term. 

[tricky974 61]

Dean Smith would have to be supported by the board to bring in the players he wants so they can play the way he wants, I assume this is not what he wants

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

50 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That is patently untrue - not only were there injuries throughout Farke's tenure this season but he didn't even have the full squad until deadline day, weeks after the season started and was then playing catch up with players that the rest of the squad had never seen before and had zero opportunity to train with.

How is this untrue?....the only injury Farke had was Zimmerman

[Bradwell canary 109]

Don’t be silly. Hardly their fault, no more than it was with DF.

Fact is the person who should go is the person who sanctioned the awful recruits in the summer. Three decent experienced PL players at £20m each. Or as we decided to go, with load of quantity with no quality for the same money. Hoping some come good, and sell them ASAP. Let’s face it, buying ONLY for the future being a newly promoted club is bound to end, as it will, in failure.

Can’t see any hope of a Emi or Madders emerging from that lot.

 

 

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

3 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

In this instance, absolutely, 100%: if you can’t see any mitigation at all for DS given the circumstances there is really no hope for you at all. 

😂 I think instead of calling people stupid you should be opening your eyes and looking at the bigger picture - are you seriously suggesting that DS should be given a free pass because he was unique, or even unusual, in having to play weakened teams because of Covid/injuries??

We played a weakened side against other weakened sides and got comprehensively spanked, simple as.

Also that only explains Villa onwards, not the earlier games.

 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,856]

13 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

And then...

It went downhill quickly and he was sacked. 

The phenomenon of assistants getting the main job on a permanent basis and doing well in this country has been consigned to history; in the last 15 years you're probably looking at Thomas Frank and Roberto Di Matteo (briefly, like Shakespeare), unless I'm forgetting someone obvious.

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

…proving what, exactly?  Mainly just that football is dreadfully short term. 

Proving the idea that Leicester's Premier League triumph was all down to Shakespeare and nothing to do with Ranieri is a load of old hogwash. Surprised it needs arguing, but then this is the PinkUn.

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

20 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

😂 I think instead of calling people stupid you should be opening your eyes and looking at the bigger picture - are you seriously suggesting that DS should be given a free pass because he was unique, or even unusual, in having to play weakened teams because of Covid/injuries??

We played a weakened side against other weakened sides and got comprehensively spanked, simple as.

Also that only explains Villa onwards, not the earlier games.

 

My eyes are clearly far more open than some of the myopic posters on here - but then many of them were calling for DF to be sacked after a handful of games last season so it’s nothing new.  There’s some who simply can’t see back further than a couple of weeks.

No one is remotely talking about free passes, just some consideration of the circumstances: at one point we had 12 players unfit - no one we played had anything like the same, Palace had 3 players out - yes, some of their better players, but not 12. 

And what are you saying about the games pre-Villa?  Did you not come away from Man U gutted that we’d lost having played so well?  That was surely a far better performance than we’d managed in the first 10 games of the season. Even against Spurs, the main thought was how we’d managed to lose by 3 given that we’d created the 3-4 best chances in the game. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

5 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

How is this untrue?....the only injury Farke had was Zimmerman

Really??

Byram - the best full back at the club, Cantwell supposedly our 'best and most creative player', Normann our best summer signing (& was it Kabak) didn't even arrive until a number of games into the season........and I think Rupp, Gibson & Hanley at least all missed games under Farke through injury though I must confess I can't remember excatly who missed which game.

But the idea that Farke had a full squad for his 11 games (or pre-season which is quite significant given overseas signings normally take a bit of settling in) just doesn't stack up.

[priceyrice 123]

Smith and Shakespeare clearly need time here. They came into a sinking ship and in truth have not been able to plug any of the gaps, but I don't know who would have been able to with this job. 

I certainly didn't want Smith here and don't believe his record with Villa was that great, as can now been seen with what Gerrard is doing there. He is however our level of manager and will rightly be given the first part of next season to show what he can do in the championship. 

My biggest concern is our identity under him. With Farke, with the exception of the Leeds game, his football identity was always clear to see. I however have no idea what Smith's footballing identity is. Hopefully we will see what it is over the remainder of the season  

[Indy 3,315]

Well we shall see about this so called improvement Wednesday, West Ham with a pretty much full squad. 
Charlton was a pretty much first choice squad and looked awful, bar the goal we were matched by a mid table league 1 Charlton. No excuses there!

But heck we’re all stupid and Branston is a genius, that’s my take on things based on nothing more than opinion! No actual arguments just his view on one game Man U, he’s not looking the the Leicester game where we played well should have been a draw, just as good as against United, then to think we were bedding in new signings into the top division whilst playing the toughest opening set of matches……but that’s no consideration……..but injuries and Covid can be used as an excuse for Smith on a set of easier fixtures, even against the bottom team at the time with ten men we nearly lost! Yes we’re the stupid ones!

Edited January 10, 2022 by Indy

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

That’s just hilarious, Indy. 

Incidentally, on what strange planet do we have a fully fit squad - I make it that we had 6 players out yesterday (Rupp, Zimmerman, Gilmour, Cantwell, Normann, Omobamidele), and others not ready to play a full 90 minutes (Rashica).  I doubt that will change for Wednesday.  That’s several certain starters missing, but don’t let a silly thing like facts bother your argument.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[Indy 3,315]

9 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

That’s just hilarious, Indy.  

Incidentally, on what strange planet way do we have a fully fit squad - I make it that we had 6 players out yesterday (Rupp, Zimmerman, Gilmour, Cantwell, Normann, Omobamidele), and others not ready to play a full 90 minutes (Rashica).  I doubt that will change for Wednesday.  That’s several certain starters missing, but don’t let a silly thing like facts bother your argument.

Zimmerman, Byram, Cantwell, Placheta, Normann, Gibson to name a few were not available for Farke in a lot games, but don’t let those facts bother you either! You’re on a wind up I can see, so won’t bite anymore but if you genuinely believe Smith has improved the performances then fair enough that’s your prerogative, to call others stupid is patronising when the results clearly indicate not, then to try and justify it by injuries but then disregard any factors hindering Farke is just stupid in itself! 
As I’ve stated no improvement in performance no improvement in results and no more excuses lot of players back, so the result matters on Wednesday, more so the performance needs to be there even if we do lose!

On a side note I really like Smith, he’s a very good bloke to listen to, honest and I want him to do well, I don’t want Webber out either, he’s been a great director of football and with time I think we’ll see the best from those younger players bought in. But things must improve or we need to set up for the championship with the best coaching set up for our structure, not sure that’s Smith.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Indy

[Besthorpe-48 103]

I think many of you are on a guilt trip all this sack Delia Webber Smith and Shakespeare rubbish is just an extension to sack farke.where so far little difference has occurred.

Grow up and get behind the team and stop whingeing about players like Billy Gilmour Todd Cantwell Kenny McLean josh Sargeant and so on. All of whom are miles better footballers  than any of you are or have ever been

If you don't like it go and support another team we don't need you.

You lot are all so sad.

 

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

17 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

And what are you saying about the games pre-Villa?  Did you not come away from Man U gutted that we’d lost having played so well?  That was surely a far better performance than we’d managed in the first 10 games of the season. 

Nothing new in people having quite different takes on a football game, that's part of the fascination I suppose 😊

I'd agree that Man U was a decent performance but Indy's comparison with the Leicester game is spot on IMO - so no, I wouldn't agree it was a far better performance than any of our first 10.

Plus I would add to that our 11th league game of the season was a far better performance than anything we have seen from DS so far - granted he hasn't got quite that far in yet but even though he has got nearly the full squad available now it is going to take a massive turn-around to get anywhere near that Brentford performance. Maybe he will but I've seen nothing so far to suggest he can.

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

Sorry, I’m not sure of this Leicester thing - the disallowed goal felt harsh but I certainly didn’t think we were particularly the better side/deserved more than a point from the game.  Has football folklore suddenly decided otherwise?

And, honestly, just where is this idea coming from that we now suddenly have a near-full squad to choose from - we still have 6 players out and Rashica may not yet be ready for a full game. That’s nowhere near a full squad.

[canarydan23 4,060]

5 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Nothing new in people having quite different takes on a football game, that's part of the fascination I suppose 😊

I'd agree that Man U was a decent performance but Indy's comparison with the Leicester game is spot on IMO - so no, I wouldn't agree it was a far better performance than any of our first 10.

Plus I would add to that our 11th league game of the season was a far better performance than anything we have seen from DS so far - granted he hasn't got quite that far in yet but even though he has got nearly the full squad available now it is going to take a massive turn-around to get anywhere near that Brentford performance. Maybe he will but I've seen nothing so far to suggest he can.

 

I think the fact that a defeat at home against Manchester United is being heralded as a great achievement shows how abject and disappointing Smith's tenure has been thus far. This was a Man Utd who were hardly tearing the league up and would then go and fail to beat Newcastle, the then (and now) second worst team in the league, in their very next game after beating us. The same Newcastle that we failed to beat despite them having ten men for over 80 minutes of the game. Before the Covid crisis as well I might add.

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

3 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Sorry, I’m not sure of this Leicester thing - the disallowed goal felt harsh but I certainly didn’t think we were particularly the better side/deserved more than a point from the game.  Has football folklore suddenly decided otherwise?

And, honestly, just where is this idea coming from that we now suddenly have a near-full squad to choose from - we still have 6 players out and Rashica may not yet be ready for a full game. That’s nowhere near a full squad.

I don't think anyone is arguing we deserved more than a point from the game. We deserved a point from the game.

And we were a ridiculous decision away from getting a 0-0 draw versus Arsenal as well.

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

No one but no one is using Man U as a great achievement - we played well but lost - just that it was probably the last true/fair league match to judge DS from…in hindsight we now know the Villa game could probably have been postponed. 

Cherry picking Man U’s results this season is a bit daft, too - the two games before they played us they beat Arsenal and Palace (both of whom soundly beat us recently), proving it has been a mixed bag.  As football often is.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[Indy 3,315]

5 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

No one but no one is using Man U as a great achievement - just that it was probably the last true/fair league match to judge DS from…the Villa game should probably have been postponed. 

Sorry Branston you called those who are questioning Smith making a marked improvement stupid, both managers have had issues to deal with, but had you just said your opinion is that you see an improvement that’s fair enough, to call those who don’t yet share that stupid is undeserved.

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

No.  I said “If anyone can say that there wasn’t a big improvement in performance, attitude and organisation before plans were ruined by injuries and Covid, which took their toll against Villa , they are lying.”  

That’s rather different. Recent games have seen us go backwards, but there are pretty clear reasons for that and judging on those games alone, which is what people are doing, is simply unfair.  And, dare I say it, stupid.

I have to say I hadn’t realised stupid was quite such a trigger word for people.  Very odd.  If someone thinks my opinions are stupid,  that’s absolutely fine by me, but I will still argue them. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[Indy 3,315]

2 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

No.  I said “If anyone can say that there wasn’t a big improvement in performance, attitude and organisation before plans were ruined by injuries and Covid, which took their toll against Villa , they are lying.”  

That’s rather different. Recent games have seen us go backwards, but there are pretty clear reasons for that and judging on those games alone, which is what people are doing, is simply unfair.

No your words were
 

Branston Pickle

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Posted 1 hour ago (edited)

It’s utterly bemusing how stupid some “supporters” appear to be.  If anyone can say that there wasn’t a big improvement in performance, attitude and organisation before plans were ruined by injuries and Covid, which took their toll against Villa onwards, they are quite simply lying. I’m absolutely certain that given a chance DS will do fine. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Branston Pickle

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

Good to see you can cut and paste, but the point you are making is simply wrong.  You’re implying things I didn’t actually say.

The ‘stupid’ comment was clearly regarding the idea that we should be sacking Smith and Shakespeare.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[Indy 3,315]

10 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Good to see you can cut and paste, but the point you are making is simply wrong.  You’re implying things I didn’t actually say.

I give up so…..it’s utterly bemusing how stupid some “supporters” appear to be! OK so you didn’t write this? Good night Branston, it’s humble to admit being out of order for patronising comments. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Indy

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

8 minutes ago, Indy said:

I give up so…..it’s utterly bemusing how stupid some “supporters” appear to be! OK so you didn’t write this? Good night Branston, it’s humble to admit being out of order for patronising comments. 

Read my post - that comment was clearly just about sacking Smith - ie the subject of the thread,  I don’t consider it patronising at all.  Are people really that triggered?!

Edited January 10, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[Indy 3,315]

4 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Read my post.  That comment was about sacking Smith - ie the subject of the thread. I don’t find it patronising at all.

I think you need to read it again at no point do you mention sacking Smith but refer to improvement, attitude and organisation your words…..which a lot don’t agree with!

[Branston Pickle 3,689]

It was a direct reply to the thread title - that’s what we do here, isn’t it?  Perhaps I should have said ‘silly’ or ‘daft and we’d not be mentioning it.

I certainly don’t agree that people weren’t commenting on the improvement in performance etc up to Villa - there were lots of threads/comments that people had been impressed with DS.  My only comment is that it is surely fair to give him a chance when he doesn’t have 10-12 players out (even Wednesday with 6-7 likely out seems harsh).  Sadly, I’m inclined to think that the way football is that too many have already decided not to give him that chance.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[percy varco 200]

4 hours ago, Mullet said:

Exactly right. DS is not the problem.

If Jurgen Klopp had these players to work with we would be no better off, does that then make Jurgen Klopp a bad manager of course not

Gerrard has Smiths players and is getting improved results. 
Dont buy this “its not his team” mantra. It will never be his team as the DoF buys the players and he has bought some dross. 
Still dont see Smith here next season.