Meanwhile..

[Nuff Said 5,142]

1 hour ago, Mr Angry said:

The opinions of people who think we need new owners are no more or less valid than those of people who think we are fine as we are, or people who don’t give a toss about who our owners are.

I’m sorry but that’s clearly nonsense. It’s David Icke’s opinion that the world is run by lizards - is that as valid as those who don’t believe that?

 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but that doesn’t make them valid or deserving of respect. If people are talking rubbish, they can’t complain if it’s made clear that they are talking rubbish.

It’s the sort of logic that tied up the BBC in knots for a while in the name of balance - they seemed to think they had to always have two opposing points of view, even if one was supported by overwhelming scientific evidence and the other was based on nothing. Thankfully they seem to have got over this.

[Nuff Said 5,142]

1 hour ago, essex canary said:

How about a new Club rule that the maximum average age of the Board is twice that of the first team squad?

How hard did you think about this before you posted it? 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

9 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I’m sorry but that’s clearly nonsense. It’s David Icke’s opinion that the world is run by lizards - is that as valid as those who don’t believe that?

 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but that doesn’t make them valid or deserving of respect. If people are talking rubbish, they can’t complain if it’s made clear that they are talking rubbish.

It’s the sort of logic that tied up the BBC in knots for a while in the name of balance - they seemed to think they had to always have two opposing points of view, even if one was supported by overwhelming scientific evidence and the other was based on nothing. Thankfully they seem to have got over this.

Exactly this. I find the "everyone's entitled to an opinion" argument tiresome and dreadfully inaccurate, as IMO it misses out the most important word of the whole lot.

That word, simply, is informed. You are entitled to an informed opinion. You are entitled to air it. But if your opinion is clearly uninformed when put to discussion, then the opinion itself (not the speaker) does not deserve any more respect than that.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

39 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

And if you don't agree with this criticism you are treated with absolute respect....

Yeah right.

 

I try not to disrespect those I disagree with yes... And since when did two wrongs make a right?

 

[nutty nigel 7,537]

1 hour ago, Kenny Foggo said:

I try not to disrespect those I disagree with yes... And since when did two wrongs make a right?

 

You see I similarly try not to disrespect those I disagree with but guarantee I get as much of it for my opinion as you do for yours. Two wrongs don't make a right but one side of the debate crying about it deserves the same response.

After all said and done we only disagree about unknown outcomes so it's not possible for one view to be right until it's proven to be.

Edited January 10, 2022 by nutty nigel

[TIL 1010 4,748]

Only just this morning read these 6 pages so can anybody confirm that the group in the photo are the from the Delia Out Facebook group or is there another faction of fans springing up ?

 

[king canary 7,607]

12 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I think it was @Indy who made an excellent point that a salary cap is what is needed in the top flight. In fact, I think it would need pairing up with the German ownership model. At the moment, the top end of the Premier League is basically the financial plaything of billionaires than a proper sporting competition.

The problem is that isn't going to happen anytime soon. 

There will be some who are happy to remain as we are hoping that football as a whole comes to its collective sense and performs a complete 180 in the financial structure of the competition to allow us to be competitive at the top level.

Others won't and take a more 'if you can't beat them, join them' type attitude. 

I waver back on forth across both POV's but I'm got no time for people who sit in the second camp are somehow all idiots with no idea. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

The problem is that isn't going to happen anytime soon. 

There will be some who are happy to remain as we are hoping that football as a whole comes to its collective sense and performs a complete 180 in the financial structure of the competition to allow us to be competitive at the top level.

Others won't and take a more 'if you can't beat them, join them' type attitude. 

I waver back on forth across both POV's but I'm got no time for people who sit in the second camp are somehow all idiots with no idea. 

Agree, but ultimately the game's not sustainable as it stands. It might need a Barcelona to go under, or a club of that magnitude. Even then, that's a sign that La Liga's salary cap probably is not stringent enough. Furthermore, if we do end up with such a switch, teams that have followed a self-financed model will be better-placed to hit the ground running.

That said, powers that be will always try to game systems to their advantage.

[king canary 7,607]

39 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Agree, but ultimately the game's not sustainable as it stands. It might need a Barcelona to go under, or a club of that magnitude. Even then, that's a sign that La Liga's salary cap probably is not stringent enough. Furthermore, if we do end up with such a switch, teams that have followed a self-financed model will be better-placed to hit the ground running.

That said, powers that be will always try to game systems to their advantage.

I'm cynical at this point though as people have been saying football is on the verge of collapse for years and yet it trundles on.

Covid looked like it might knock some sense into people but it didn't. The latest deal with NBC in the states doubles the amount of money the TV rights went for. The bubble just refuses to burst right now. 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm cynical at this point though as people have been saying football is on the verge of collapse for years and yet it trundles on.

Covid looked like it might knock some sense into people but it didn't. The latest deal with NBC in the states doubles the amount of money the TV rights went for. The bubble just refuses to burst right now. 

 

It'll trundle on for as long as people can game systems to their advantage, and for as long as the "too big to fail" thinking permeates.

And this, IMO, is precisely where the protesting and pushing should be. Start pushing for all clubs to follow more sustainable rules, otherwise there will be a lot more like Derby, like Bury, like Bolton, like Portsmouth, etc.

[king canary 7,607]

5 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

It'll trundle on for as long as people can game systems to their advantage, and for as long as the "too big to fail" thinking permeates.

And this, IMO, is precisely where the protesting and pushing should be. Start pushing for all clubs to follow more sustainable rules, otherwise there will be a lot more like Derby, like Bury, like Bolton, like Portsmouth, etc.

So you want Norwich fans to go and protest other clubs?

Seems unlikely. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

So you want Norwich fans to go and protest other clubs?

Seems unlikely. 

Think we've inadvertently gone past each other a shade.

I'd like to see protests on changing rules for ownership (improving that "fit and proper persons" test), on enforcing a salary cap in the top flight, and also on converting to the German ownership model. I think that's something a lot of clubs could get behind.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

15 hours ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

Freedom of speech is a two way street though, and this is a discussion board. People can protest, people can support that protest and people can criticise that protest. People have as much right to support the board/owners/Webber as those that criticise the board/owners/Webber. I would hate to see this forum taken over by any one group. Fair play to the chaps who went to the game today, particularly the one wearing shorts on a cold day. Power to the people and vive la difference........

Quite right. But there are Usual Suspects from the polar opposite opinions on here. I would hope that the middle ground could convince both sides to compromise their opinions.

I used the freedom of speech to highlight the poles apart attitude highlighted by this particular topic. For some to use language about a few lads using their method to vent their feelings is as irrelevant as maybe their banner is.

I hope that I am a more conciliatory middle of the road supporter. Admittedly I have lost my rag on here and for that I am embarrassed and sorry.

Born in Norwich, the club is in my blood but I haven't lived in the City for nearly 48 years. Doesn't dampen my love for all things NCFC.

I expect us to win every game of course and have as much optimism as the next supporter. But I do like to take things on a game to game, appointment to appointment basis. Nobody enjoys a Saturday night more than me after a win, even more if it was achieved with panache and style. And I think my posts illustrate this.

But I am not ready to paint over a bad performance and will say so. So yesterday was no better than dire as far as I am concerned. No excuses about out of our depth in the EPL. We were playing a mid table L1 side who have had there unhappy times at board level recently. And it was hardly an adrenalin soaked atmosphere. A lot less than full ground and no real good football on display from either side. And to be honest, the onus was on us not Charlton.

So while I expected one or two posters to make excuses or try and reason why we weren't that bad, it was unfair for them to turn on those lads. Lads who had made the effort to support their team away from home. That doesn't mean they have to support the owners does it. Ask the Charlton supporters what they have been through with owners. And thre seems to be growing support for the idea that the owners aren't doing a good job in isolation and that new owners are desired.  I tend to agree actually.

 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,024]

15 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Quite right. But there are Usual Suspects from the polar opposite opinions on here. I would hope that the middle ground could convince both sides to compromise their opinions.

I used the freedom of speech to highlight the poles apart attitude highlighted by this particular topic. For some to use language about a few lads using their method to vent their feelings is as irrelevant as maybe their banner is.

I hope that I am a more conciliatory middle of the road supporter. Admittedly I have lost my rag on here and for that I am embarrassed and sorry.

Born in Norwich, the club is in my blood but I haven't lived in the City for nearly 48 years. Doesn't dampen my love for all things NCFC.

I expect us to win every game of course and have as much optimism as the next supporter. But I do like to take things on a game to game, appointment to appointment basis. Nobody enjoys a Saturday night more than me after a win, even more if it was achieved with panache and style. And I think my posts illustrate this.

But I am not ready to paint over a bad performance and will say so. So yesterday was no better than dire as far as I am concerned. No excuses about out of our depth in the EPL. We were playing a mid table L1 side who have had there unhappy times at board level recently. And it was hardly an adrenalin soaked atmosphere. A lot less than full ground and no real good football on display from either side. And to be honest, the onus was on us not Charlton.

So while I expected one or two posters to make excuses or try and reason why we weren't that bad, it was unfair for them to turn on those lads. Lads who had made the effort to support their team away from home. That doesn't mean they have to support the owners does it. Ask the Charlton supporters what they have been through with owners. And thre seems to be growing support for the idea that the owners aren't doing a good job in isolation and that new owners are desired.  I tend to agree actually.

 

Agree with what you say re those lads, nothing but respect for fans that travel way to support their team, no matter what team they support. Personally I believe we are all entitled to our opinions, I think both sides of the argument need to stop trying to think theirs is the only correct opinion and trying to change the minds of those that disagree with them. I get it is an emotive subject but it would be great for a rounded, reasoned discussion on the subject........

[nutty nigel 7,537]

People shouldn't be turning on them. Perhaps those who demand change on here should be helping them? Surely any protest should be something that's doable. And Delia can't sell the club. You can't sell what you don't own. The best they can hope for is that Delia and Michael sell 52% of the club if they can find a buyer. 

 

[Nuff Said 5,142]

10 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

Agree with what you say re those lads, nothing but respect for fans that travel way to support their team, no matter what team they support. Personally I believe we are all entitled to our opinions, I think both sides of the argument need to stop trying to think theirs is the only correct opinion and trying to change the minds of those that disagree with them. I get it is an emotive subject but it would be great for a rounded, reasoned discussion on the subject........

How can you have a rounded, reasoned discussion without trying to change the minds of those that disagree with you? It kind of comes with the territory of a discussion doesn’t it?

[Mr Angry 1,561]

15 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

I’m sorry but that’s clearly nonsense. It’s David Icke’s opinion that the world is run by lizards - is that as valid as those who don’t believe that?

 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but that doesn’t make them valid or deserving of respect. If people are talking rubbish, they can’t complain if it’s made clear that they are talking rubbish.

It’s the sort of logic that tied up the BBC in knots for a while in the name of balance - they seemed to think they had to always have two opposing points of view, even if one was supported by overwhelming scientific evidence and the other was based on nothing. Thankfully they seem to have got over this.

And @TheGunnShow You disagree with me, but then you both agree with me as well!

I believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and to voice it, but I also believe that once they have voiced it they should be prepared for the response-whether that be to have their opinion countered by well reasoned argument, by abuse, ridicule or even legal action if what they say is against the law.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

7 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

And @TheGunnShow You disagree with me, but then you both agree with me as well!

I believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and to voice it, but I also believe that once they have voiced it they should be prepared for the response-whether that be to have their opinion countered by well reasoned argument, by abuse, ridicule or even legal action if what they say is against the law.

Now you've clarified the previous comment that Nuff and I responded to with your second paragraph here, I suspect we're on very similar pages. Your initial comment didn't appear to make any explicit reference to how informed the stances were, and for me that's the key point.

I'm no fan of countering via abuse under normal circumstances, but there's always room for fighting fire with fire on occasion.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,024]

20 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

How can you have a rounded, reasoned discussion without trying to change the minds of those that disagree with you? It kind of comes with the territory of a discussion doesn’t it?

Maybe, but from a personal point of view I feel the point of a discussion is to set out a well reasoned, well researched argument as to why you hold a particular view, it maybe that a well reasoned, well researched counter argument changes your mind on all some of your views but it may not. You then end the discussion with an acknowledgement of a good debate. At the moment what we have is a **** fest of opinions dressed up as facts, name calling, pigeon holing individuals into one camp or another and reasoned discussion drowned out or ignored as it does not suit the narrative. By way of an example Badger made a very good point on the Southampton owners thread but it was just ignored......... 

[essex canary 496]

46 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

People shouldn't be turning on them. Perhaps those who demand change on here should be helping them? Surely any protest should be something that's doable. And Delia can't sell the club. You can't sell what you don't own. The best they can hope for is that Delia and Michael sell 52% of the club if they can find a buyer. 

 

Their tenure of the Club can be divided into 2 distinct halves. Whatever our problems at the moment the second half has been far the best from a footballing perspective. The first half was better in terms of consulting fans with local roadshows etc. If we should be helping them perhaps they need to cast their minds back to that?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

55 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

How can you have a rounded, reasoned discussion without trying to change the minds of those that disagree with you? It kind of comes with the territory of a discussion doesn’t it?

I post on here because I want to tell you all about my love and feelings for the club. Everyone comes and goes. Many of us will not be posting for too many more years while there will be new ones joining. All with one thing in common of course.

I would hope any opinion I post might make somebody change their mind but its unlikely. At best you might point out something that someone had overlooked and they will note. But my main aim is to express my opinion whether its joy or anger on here among other supporters. I believe I am reasonable and only only respond angrily or rudely when provoked.

[Nuff Said 5,142]

47 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Now you've clarified the previous comment that Nuff and I responded to with your second paragraph here, I suspect we're on very similar pages. Your initial comment didn't appear to make any explicit reference to how informed the stances were, and for me that's the key point.

I'm no fan of countering via abuse under normal circumstances, but there's always room for fighting fire with fire on occasion.

I think we’re largely violently agreeing here.

The thing about expressing a counter-argument is that many of us, myself included, often like to do this in a lighthearted way - or as “banter”. Sometimes this can be received as rude or not taking people seriously, sometimes people feel like they are the butt of a joke and don’t like it. I hope the environment we have on this board allows people to point this out if it does happen. In general, posters are pretty fair minded and hold their hands up if they’ve overstepped a mark. There are a couple of exceptions but I think most of us have marked their cards by now and treat their contributions appropriately.

[Mr Angry 1,561]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Now you've clarified the previous comment that Nuff and I responded to with your second paragraph here, I suspect we're on very similar pages. Your initial comment didn't appear to make any explicit reference to how informed the stances were, and for me that's the key point.

I'm no fan of countering via abuse under normal circumstances, but there's always room for fighting fire with fire on occasion.

Yeah, point taken, I was only referring to the ownership debate, not the more extreme views that are aired on occasion-although I guess that for some, a change of ownership is a pretty extreme view 😀

I think you, me and @Nuff Saidare all pretty similar in that we often respond to comments with humour or sarcasm-but sometimes that gets missed by some of the more serious posters on here! 

[Nuff Said 5,142]

4 hours ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

Maybe, but from a personal point of view I feel the point of a discussion is to set out a well reasoned, well researched argument as to why you hold a particular view, it maybe that a well reasoned, well researched counter argument changes your mind on all some of your views but it may not. You then end the discussion with an acknowledgement of a good debate. At the moment what we have is a **** fest of opinions dressed up as facts, name calling, pigeon holing individuals into one camp or another and reasoned discussion drowned out or ignored as it does not suit the narrative. By way of an example Badger made a very good point on the Southampton owners thread but it was just ignored......... 

Welcome to the Internet. 😉

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,024]

23 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Welcome to the Internet. 😉

Indeed, wonderful and terrible at the same time.........

[Nuff Said 5,142]

Just now, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

Indeed, wonderful and terrible at the same time.........

Just like the printing press before it.

[Indy 3,300]

5 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Just like the printing press before it.

Or chisel and stone before that!