Webber Out

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

15 minutes ago, chicken said:

But you also get something importantly wrong here. "doesn't particularly rate Buendia" - I am always at pains to point out that this is not the case. Just that I simply do not subscribe to suggestions that he is our best ever player, greatest ever player, most talented ever player etc etc etc. That doesn't mean I don't rate him, it just means I don't hero-worship him. And generally I don't hero worship players anymore

I cannot remember any player since the leagues formation to have torn the Championship apart like Emi Buendia did last season, he may well possibly be the greatest player that the Championship has ever seen. 

And I am not somebody who wears yellow tinted glasses, in fact I can sometimes be too far the other way and lean towards pessimism and understatement. 

15 goals and 17 assists from midfield, correctly voted the EFL Championship Player of the Season, in the PFA Championship team of the season, the EFL Team of the Season, and as the Norwich City player of the season, in a year where we gained a record points haul.

I cannot remember any Norwich player having had a season as good as Buendia last season.

If you can't see that Buendia is a once a generation talent for a Norwich fan, a really special player, then that is why I wouldn't choose to voluntarily read 1100 words from you on the topic of football. 

Buendia was immense last season, many won't see a player that good at Carrow Road again in their lifetimes, I feel honoured to have seen him grace our turf in a Yellow shirt. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

5 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

understatement. 

Yes, you're famous and well respected for it.

Edited September 24, 2021 by wcorkcanary

[ged in the onion bag 855]

2 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Makes zero sense.

He was the majority shareholder of Derby, equivalent to Delia and MWJ.

We're talking about our sporting director. 

I don't know if Derby have the equivalent position, but Steve McLaren is their technical director.

Different set up, Webber has much more role in running of our club.   Point is be very careful what you wish for!     Where are our club financially compared with so many others.    Unless someone else could be guaranteed to do better, why change it when we’ve improved year on year!     Yes it’s difficult at the moment, sometimes even embarrassing, but that’s for the club as well as us fans… at the minute the club needs its fans to step up even more, show some balls and get behind the players and coaches, stop the oh so predictable whinging / pant wetting and really show what brilliant fans this club has.   

[ged in the onion bag 855]

12 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I cannot remember any player since the leagues formation to have torn the Championship apart like Emi Buendia did last season, he may well possibly be the greatest player that the Championship has ever seen. 

And I am not somebody who wears yellow tinted glasses, in fact I can sometimes be too far the other way and lean towards pessimism and understatement. 

15 goals and 17 assists from midfield, correctly voted the EFL Championship Player of the Season, in the PFA Championship team of the season, the EFL Team of the Season, and as the Norwich City player of the season, in a year where we gained a record points haul.

I cannot remember any Norwich player having had a season as good as Buendia last season.

If you can't see that Buendia is a once a generation talent for a Norwich fan, a really special player, then that is why I wouldn't choose to voluntarily read 1100 words from you on the topic of football. 

Buendia was immense last season, many won't see a player that good at Carrow Road again in their lifetimes, I feel honoured to have seen him grace our turf in a Yellow shirt. 

I can absolutely agree with you on Buendia!

[chicken 2,625]

5 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I cannot remember any player since the leagues formation to have torn the Championship apart like Emi Buendia did last season, he may well possibly be the greatest player that the Championship has ever seen. 

And I am not somebody who wears yellow tinted glasses, in fact I can sometimes be too far the other way and lean towards pessimism and understatement. 

15 goals and 17 assists from midfield, correctly voted the EFL Championship Player of the Season, in the PFA Championship team of the season, the EFL Team of the Season, and as the Norwich City player of the season, in a year where we gained a record points haul.

I cannot remember any Norwich player having had a season as good as Buendia last season.

If you can't see that Buendia is a once a generation talent for a Norwich fan, a really special player, then that is why I wouldn't choose to voluntarily read 1100 words from you on the topic of football. 

Buendia was immense last season, many won't see a player that good at Carrow Road again in their lifetimes, I feel honoured to have seen him grace our turf in a Yellow shirt. 

Once in a generation talent is very different to saying he is our greatest ever talent. In fact it's a step back because he is then placed in a long line of others... And also that you note the Championship is exactly the point I have made several times. We have had players achieve what he has achieved in the Championship, but at a level higher in the Premier League. Something he is yet to achieve, and will not achieve for us now.

Also by mentioning the Championship you could effectively rule out, on technicality, the likes of Huckerby. He absolutely destroyed the old Division 1 when he came on loan and then permanently. He also scored 6 goals and had 6 assists to his name in the following premier league campaign. Rightly, 16+ years ago now probably is considered a different generation.

Again, you then talk about last season. Something I have also pointed out. Last season he was fantastic. The levels he displayed were so vastly improved upon the previous 2 seasons it was almost like seeing a different player. I believe it was around October-November when a great many people were reflecting on how much better he had become, tracking back a lot more than before, scoring more goals, more assists. He was looking more like the player people thought he could become than the player we often saw before. Not that he was poor before, just that he wasn't amazing. And it was his 2nd Championship season, not his first. And his first premier league season was somewhat underwhelming for us too.

The statement I embolden is important here I feel. At this point, you are appearing to overstate the importance of Buendia as to make a bigger point about him moving on. Your belief is that it was cheap and that he shouldn't have been sold. To underline this, overstating Buendia's impact and ability clearly benefits painting it as a worse decision than perhaps it was.

As I say, I recognise his ability and contribution to us as a club. He was a great player for us. Greatest ever - not even close. Greatest of this generation? Perhaps on technical ability... but some players are still with us and still writing their Norwich history... Pukki, for example, now has 68 goals in 120 appearances, five of which as a sub. Have we had a striker with a better strike ratio than that? Especially in the championship/division 1 etc?  And Krul, a player who's career had been pretty much written off... arguably the best keeper we have had since Brian Gunn, some might argue Green or Ruddy but Krul has an excellent shout. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 minute ago, chicken said:

Once in a generation talent is very different to saying he is our greatest ever talent. 

I think I did use the words "best ever player" back in July when upset in the days following his exit, but I haven't said anything of the sort on this thread or in my OP? 

On 21/09/2021 at 21:27, TeemuVanBasten said:

How is Farke supposed to lose his best player, his only top 6 quality player, our talisman, somebody critical to everything that we did on the pitch over the past three years

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

I think for people to be judging the window after most of our new boys have played a handful of games is frankly ridiculous. Players from foreign leagues take time to adjust. Doesnt mean they're crap. You cant tell just yet.

And remember - the reality is for any player we sign we've only got them because the bigger clubs have allowed us to sign them (remember how we 'stole' RvW from under the noses of the big clubs?)

Edited September 24, 2021 by The Great Mass Debater

[chicken 2,625]

12 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think I did use the words "best ever player" back in July when upset in the days following his exit, but I haven't said anything of the sort on this thread or in my OP? 

I mean, perhaps I misinterpreted but this was today...

51 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I cannot remember any player since the leagues formation to have torn the Championship apart like Emi Buendia did last season, he may well possibly be the greatest player that the Championship has ever seen. 

I cannot remember any Norwich player having had a season as good as Buendia last season.

 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

Get em in early.....we rushed it/ over spent/ could have played hardball.

Get em in late.....should have paid asking price earlier/-no time to assimilate/obviously last choice.

 

I love this board.

[chicken 2,625]

Just now, wcorkcanary said:

Probably wise my good man, you're starting to revert to type, which of course you would deny. As when a narcissist looks in the mirror it is not his self he sees, but how others should,in his opinion , see him. Byeeee

Nice to meet you again Cork. This discussion we are meant to have... is it about neither of us being narcissists or... 

[curious yellow 184]

I think mistakes have been made with the summer recruitment, Buendia and Ajer. We have spent a lot on loans which will all be wasted if we go down. Kabak and Norman should have been the first players in rather than last minute.

On the other hand, Webber was responsible for bringing in Buendia and Pukki. Sacking him would do no good. Talking about getting rid of people at this point of the season is pointless and the motive can only be punishment/revenge which is unfair in light of what they have achieved. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

16 minutes ago, chicken said:

I mean, perhaps I misinterpreted but this was today...

The Premier League is 29 years old.

The Championship is only 17 years old.

I didn't say the second tier; I'd have no business declaring Buendia the greatest "second tier" player ever. I was specifically talking about the Championship, I was an adult when it was founded and my team has been in it more than it has been out of it in that time. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

Nice to meet you again Cork. This discussion we are meant to have... is it about neither of us being narcissists or... 

And you Sir. It took many days and numerous insults from TvB  before he conceded that he 'may have been mistaken' about what Webber /McNally said. It was fun to tickle him......he holds his own opinion in very high esteem....even when he's wrong. Its mighty sport but not worth wasting too much time on, a bit like squeezing a zit..........squeeze for a little too long and you're in danger of it all going septic.

 

 

 

[robert choice 24]

5 hours ago, hogesar said:

Well, when Webber came in we were an ageing championship squad that hadn't been able to bounce back from relegation. In two seasons we'd become championship title winners with the inclusion of young players from our academy who became worth 10's of millions of pounds. Off the pitch we've transformed our already Category A academy with significant investment and Colney is a true Premier League training complex.

No idea what your 'all inclusive' comment is about, other than us being a football club which, like all others, fights against discrimination, racism etc.

No idea what fight you think has gone, to win a 46 game Championship season without any fight would be unbelievable and would equally warrant even more praise for Daniel and Stuart for achieving such a record without this so called fight.

Delia will be very pleased with that.

 

Well done.

[king canary 7,607]

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

7 minutes ago, king canary said:

So thats where Homer hides his popcorn ||||

[The Bunny 309]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

If I ever bump into you with any of my close friends and family you can ask them. I was also quite vocal with the silly stat about winning with him in the side compared to not when there were other players who had similar stats etc.

But you also get something importantly wrong here. "doesn't particularly rate Buendia" - I am always at pains to point out that this is not the case. Just that I simply do not subscribe to suggestions that he is our best ever player, greatest ever player, most talented ever player etc etc etc. That doesn't mean I don't rate him, it just means I don't hero-worship him. And generally I don't hero worship players anymore.

I don't subscribe to the hyperbole about him being the next best player to hit the premier league, the new Messi or some of the other claims folks have suggested. I don't think he was sold particularly cheaply and I don't think he is yet a top six player. I have always said he has the potential to become one, and like last season, he'd need to really realise that rather than just showing the potential. For a player in the position he plays, that needs to be more assists and more goals at Premier League level, something he struggled with last time out.

Has he proved he is as good as Dean Ashton/Chris Sutton/Hoolahan/Holt/Bellamy/Maddison/Peters etc etc etc. Not yet. 

Ok, that's fair. And like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't think we're going to agree, but that's fine. 

I would stress though that a fan's view of Buendia (in particular, whether he's a standout talent or just a good player) is pretty fundamental his/her overall assessment of the club's summer transfer business, and Webber's performance in particular. If you believe (like I do) that Emi was a special talent, the like of which we've rarely seen see at Carrow Road, then you're going to have a very different view. I don't think those views can easily be reconciled. 

So I guess what I'm saying is we should agree to disagree here. 

As the season progresses, the picture should become clearer. If we go down Derby County-style with a points record to match then I'd hope the board are held to account by the fans. Conversely, if the new players surprise us, come good and keep us up, we'd have to give the board (and manager) credit where it's due. Or perhaps it'll be somewhere in between the two. For me, I think the test will be whether we can exceed the points total from two seasons ago. The early indicators are not good, but we'll see.  

[chicken 2,625]

5 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

Ok, that's fair. And like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't think we're going to agree, but that's fine. 

I would stress though that a fan's view of Buendia (in particular, whether he's a standout talent or just a good player) is pretty fundamental his/her overall assessment of the club's summer transfer business, and Webber's performance in particular. If you believe (like I do) that Emi was a special talent, the like of which we've rarely seen see at Carrow Road, then you're going to have a very different view. I don't think those views can easily be reconciled. 

So I guess what I'm saying is we should agree to disagree here. 

As the season progresses, the picture should become clearer. If we go down Derby County-style with a points record to match then I'd hope the board are held to account by the fans. Conversely, if the new players surprise us, come good and keep us up, we'd have to give the board (and manager) credit where it's due. Or perhaps it'll be somewhere in between the two. For me, I think the test will be whether we can exceed the points total from two seasons ago. The early indicators are not good, but we'll see.  

Bang on. I don't think a slightly differing view on Buendia has to have any bearing on the last part of your post (emboldened). I agree with it totally. I would even go so far as to say that we were told this season would be different and there is no room for sentiment. If in another 5 games time we haven't seen any considerable upturn in results I would expect there to be a much starker and more serious stance from the club.

We have been told that this season would be different, and it is, and that there would be no room for sentiment. I have said before that this has to include the coaching staff as well. If Farke continues to struggle, Webber and the board have to accept that perhaps, at least in the Premier League, Farke isn't able to get our teams performing to a sufficient level. How many bites of the cherry do you give?

I do tend to temper that with the fact that he really hasn't had time to work with some of the players and the squad as a whole. And that is why I don't and won't jump in with anyone suggesting any sackings should happen in the next five games at least. I think that takes us up until the game Vs Leeds. Which is over a month. That is generous enough a time to see a turn around whilst not giving a successor too few games to establish their approach either.

Ten wins and five draws is enough for safety most seasons. Or 35 points. Last season was far fewer. The "magic 40pts" is so called because it is certainly safe going on past seasons.

I just don't like to see knee jerk reactions and this odd beast that rears it's head when we a promoted and people become much more easily angered and seemingly faster to look for scapegoats or a single reason for failure with which to hang their argument from.

[king canary 7,607]

54 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

As the season progresses, the picture should become clearer. If we go down Derby County-style with a points record to match then I'd hope the board are held to account by the fans. Conversely, if the new players surprise us, come good and keep us up, we'd have to give the board (and manager) credit where it's due. Or perhaps it'll be somewhere in between the two. For me, I think the test will be whether we can exceed the points total from two seasons ago. The early indicators are not good, but we'll see.  

I'm of the opinion we may well end the season with a higher points total but a different manager.

[Danke bitte 965]

7 hours ago, king canary said:

Maybe I'm wrong but Webber has never struck me as a pure football ideologue. Sure he wants teams to play good football but his record here shows an ability to be pragmatic. It was him, for example, who basically told Farke he was signing a proper central defender (which turned out to be Hanley) after the disastrous first few games of his reign.

Also the signings this season point to a desire to give Farke different options in how he plays. Last time we were very much wedded to the pretty, short passing, slow build up, play through teams style. This season, in attack at least, we've got multiple different options. Rashica and Tzolis for example are investments in players who will offer more direct running and don't object to getting to the byline and putting crosses in the box which the chance arises. Sargent is a much more physical prospect who is capable of winning aerial battles and offering that physical, defensive cover when out wide.  

To me the onus is on Farke now to show he knows how to use them- in my view he's much more the ideologue who is wedded to a very particular and quite extreme version of how football should be played. We aren't asking him to play like Stoke but he needs to show he can adapt. 

I agree with your comments about Farke. There is a responsibility for him to get something out of players no doubt identified by him to give the league a go. But we’re not seeing that.

Taking a cynical view of Webber, this is nothing more than a passing job for him, though I would point to absolute success regarding Infrastructure improvements and the Championship, I’m very frustrated to see the same issues as in 19/20. 

I seem to recall Webber talking about a brand of football from root to branch implemented at Norwich in his first few months of his tenure. We’ve seen different variations of a possession style over the past few seasons, but as you say it’s up to the coach to engage in ‘horses for courses’ as for. 

I think the biggest challenge for Webber now is stick or twist with Farke if results don’t improve. And on top of that what happens if he does and it doesn’t work out?

I’ll say one thing, I know results are painful, but it’s very interesting right now beyond that. 

[hogesar 9,674]

4 hours ago, robert choice said:

Delia will be very pleased with that.

 

Well done.

You can't even back up your nonsense one liners. Great. What an addition to the forum.

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

6 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Get em in early.....we rushed it/ over spent/ could have played hardball.

Get em in late.....should have paid asking price earlier/-no time to assimilate/obviously last choice.

 

I love this board.

What’s happened on here? Comments getting deleted for some reason

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

6 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

What’s happened on here? Comments getting deleted for some reason

Why what who when Thumbo?

[The Bunny 309]

6 hours ago, curious yellow said:

On the other hand, Webber was responsible for bringing in Buendia and Pukki.

And we’ll never hear the end of it. He’s been dining out on it ever since. It matters not that most of his more recent signings have struggled to make the first team. 
 

Our transfer business from several years back seems to have instilled a false confidence in some fans and Webber himself. Because the club made signings that worked out brilliantly in the wake of the Maddison sale, it was assumed they could repeat history if they lost another key player (Webber said as much in interviews). The problem is, this was always statistically unlikely.

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

40 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Why what who when Thumbo?

I can’t see my reply to you nor your reply to me from earlier. Very odd. The board probably got bored of them two bickering on and deleted our replies too 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

13 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

And we’ll never hear the end of it. He’s been dining out on it ever since. It matters not that most of his more recent signings have struggled to make the first team. 
 

Our transfer business from several years back seems to have instilled a false confidence in some fans and Webber himself. Because the club made signings that worked out brilliantly in the wake of the Maddison sale, it was assumed they could repeat history if they lost another key player (Webber said as much in interviews). The problem is, this was always statistically unlikely.

I fear that as the season progresses it will transpire that our best signings are the loanees, and that upon relegation all three of them will return back to their parent clubs and leave us unable to adequate replace them to mount a challenge to return to the Premier League.

It very much felt like DM was the number 1 priority (asides from Emi replacement once sold), and that we needed to find and recruit our long-term Tettey replacement, and make that unconditional on league. 

I don't foresee this being an issue with the full back position, but it would definitely be an issue at defensive midfield and centre back. If Kabak and Normann establish themselves as crucial players, then relegation will be a double whammy. 

Although of course, our loans were unsuccessful last time in this league so perhaps a moot point. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by TeemuVanBasten

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

5 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

I can’t see my reply to you nor your reply to me from earlier. Very odd. The board probably got bored of them two bickering on and deleted our replies too 

Aye, can't remember  either of us saying much that would be controversial earlier,  today anyway 😉. Grand. Happy  Friendly Friday  to ya.

[king canary 7,607]

22 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

And we’ll never hear the end of it. He’s been dining out on it ever since. It matters not that most of his more recent signings have struggled to make the first team. 
 

Our transfer business from several years back seems to have instilled a false confidence in some fans and Webber himself. Because the club made signings that worked out brilliantly in the wake of the Maddison sale, it was assumed they could repeat history if they lost another key player (Webber said as much in interviews). The problem is, this was always statistically unlikely.

Last season he bought in Skipp, Giannoulis, Dowell and Gibson, all of whom were big parts of our promotion. 

[The Bunny 309]

26 minutes ago, king canary said:

Last season he bought in Skipp, Giannoulis, Dowell and Gibson, all of whom were big parts of our promotion. 

Sure, I agree on Dimi, Gibson and Skipp especially (albeit just a loan). 

My point remains that most of Webber's signings have not been as successful, and there's nothing to suggest we can repeat the kind of business we did back in June 2018, when Pukki and Buendia were signed on the back of the Maddison's sale (Pukki on a free, no less). Those were either inspired signings or incredibly fortunate, but either way, those kind of signings doesn't come along very often. 

[hogesar 9,674]

1 hour ago, The Bunny said:

Sure, I agree on Dimi, Gibson and Skipp especially (albeit just a loan). 

My point remains that most of Webber's signings have not been as successful, and there's nothing to suggest we can repeat the kind of business we did back in June 2018, when Pukki and Buendia were signed on the back of the Maddison's sale (Pukki on a free, no less). Those were either inspired signings or incredibly fortunate, but either way, those kind of signings doesn't come along very often. 

I think with the budget available Webber has signed fantastic players, that first promotion season especially but then to strengthen for another promotion season two after - I cant think of any other person at the club who has delivered such value for money when you consider the increased value generated in players.