Webber Out

[Six Pack 93]

4 hours ago, chicken said:

Sadly, there is a good point hidden amongst the part I emboldened. What you have done though, is butchered that good point, quite horrendously.

Emi Buendia was about as far from representative of our winning mentality and carrier of momentum as you could find in our squad. He wanted gone last summer. Various sources have now supported this and made it relatively clear that whilst there was no official agreement there was some sort of mutual acceptance that he would leave at the end of last season. The deal itself was being orchestrated many months before May, when he moved.

There are two frequent failures in this argument in that usually players are sold upon relegation. And the club could have buckled and sold him last summer. This would have made returning to the premier league much more difficult. Even if we had received a similar amount of money for him, the calibre of player we could bring to the club in the Championship with ease would be vastly different to when in the premier league. Put another way, players that are potentially worth £10-£20m plying their trade in the German, French, Dutch, Italian or even Greek top leagues are not going to see themselves as championship players. Giannoulis, for example, came to us in January because he could see with some confidence that we would be promoted. He also had the security of it being a loan and that he would not have been signed if we did not gain promotion.

So when argued "no clubs sell their best players upon promotion" the reality is we fought to keep him to get the promotion we sold him after. If anyone was to have given most of us the choice of promotion or selling Buendia last summer which would we have taken? Promotion every time without fail. I don't want any player here that doesn't want to be. They become a rot that then sets in amongst the rest of the squad.

But lets go back a few steps. The emboldened bit. Specifically "carrying momentum and winning mentality". We had that in abundance in our last premier league campaign. A team buzzing and full of characters who may not have been the best footballers and so appreciated the feat they had managed of a championship title when very few had them down for a top 6 finish let alone No.1 spot.

Fast forward to this summer. On 1st August we had yet to sign 5 players - Sargent, Williams, Tzolis, Normann and Kabak. We had lost Stiepermann, Tettey, Vrancic, Leitner, Trybull, Klose, Drmic and were to lose Hernandez, Martin and Hugill on loan in addition. 10 players in and around the first team picture. 5 of them at least who had experienced the first promotion. Others whom were said to be big orchestrators of the dressing room positivity like Hernandez and Hugill, for example.

So, Sargent signed on the 9th August, the others all signed after him, though Tzolis closest to him on the 12th. Those two were therefore with the club for 6 weeks as of the Monday just gone. Two of those 6 weeks were spent away on international duty. So in reality have had four weeks training with the squad. Kabak and Normann signed at the end of August, not yet 4 weeks ago and again, both were away on international duty for two weeks meaning they have only spent just under two weeks training with our squad. Williams wasn't involved in international duty but was signed a month ago today.

Couple that with the fact that all of those plus Rashica, PLM, Gunn and Gilmore are also new editions this summer and the likes of Omobamidele who was only brought into the first team fold towards the end of last season and Mumba who played a bit part role you very much have a large percentage of players that are fresh to the team in terms of having experienced that championship tilt to carry that momentum and winning mentality.

That is always a huge risk of switching a lot of your players and clearly why Webber and Farke have previously gambled on players a notch or two bellow what they wanted to get them in early and get them bedded into the squad and team much sooner.

This isn't an excuse, it's merely an observation. We are seeing disconnection between players, lack of communication, lack of taking responsibility and leadership, some players waiting for commands rather than using initiative, balls not quite in keeping with the run being made etc etc etc. All signs of players not quite connecting and not quite on each others wavelengths.

Importantly this is also why I feel things are different now to the last ten games of two seasons ago. I don't feel that these are players, perhaps playing above their level not quite having the legs to carry them without the support of 27k fans to back them. What I see are individuals still adjusting to their surroundings and a frustrated coach wanting this much quicker than it's happening whilst also understanding it is a big, big ask.

The key question for me is that this is a new question of Farke. Given time with players he has often done well, getting more from a team than the collection of individuals on paper would suggest he should. He has had very little to no time this summer, either because of covid disrupting friendlies and training or because signings have come in much closer to the deadline and having less time and much more difficult games to get them up to speed with.

You can start four or five new players against Huddersfield in the championship and know that even if they can only give 2nd gear the rest of the team will carry them through. In the Premier League, against Man City, Liverpool, Leicester and even a poor Arsenal, those luxuries are ill afforded.

It's a big question. Farke now has the added pressure of trying to get this team clicking and working together whilst combating the additional stresses and strains of five league defeats in a row.

There isn't anything more to this than that. Is Farke capable of overcoming a scenario he hasn't really faced with us before whilst combating one he has?

The new players, on the whole, are not rubbish. They all have shown glimpses of quality, moments of class and flashes of why they have been brought in to replace those going out, just not consistently and not together as a whole. For me it is a coaching issue, a team issue, not one of players signed.

And our signings since Webber has come in have on the whole been a success. You can't expect them all to go well but we have had a high percentage of successes. 

If you were a defense lawyer at a murder trial, the murderer might get acquitted ! Well balance post with good points - but can be applied to most clubs with new players - clever but you are eluding the fact that Webber has brought in players with an inadequate ability to keep us in this league. Not sure they are better than those of two years ago either. This a way bigger challenge than the championship and Webber has been crudely exposed. You can't just bring in anyone and hope Farke converts them into a "someone".

You have the excuse of Liverpool, Man City, Leicester & Arsenal being difficult fixtures to start with but what about Watford and the Liverpool youth team ? We had players unable to stay on their feet attempting to shoot ! Any ball lobbed into our penalty area had a chance of a goal for the opposition - our defenders were so useless. Fair enough I thought Idah should have taken the penalty but any pro should have been able to stick the ball into one of the 4 corners at pace ! The quality shown that night was from the Liverpool teenagers - it was embarrassing - and all cameras were on DF - silently ridiculing him - they should have been on Webber !

Webber has spent £30m on three players, almost 10 times more than the entire group of 2018-19 - the quality is not there !

You need a lot more than just luck in this league and you can't just bring in average players and just pray they can perform. 

Webber is out of his depth !

[Danke bitte 965]

I appreciate what Webber has done for the club but there’s no room for the kind of football he wanted to implement in the Premier League with the type of player we can afford. 

We should have gone in pragmatically and played ugly football for a few seasons and incrementally changed out style. 

He arrogantly assumed his ‘Norwich Way’ would work. Who knows it might still but signs are, like last time, we’re too lightweight in the middle.

Getting in a new coach might help, I would say if he doesn’t pull the trigger on Farke should he not galvanise a turn around next 3 games, then questions hang over wether Webber is fit at the top. 

Alternatively, he could just turn around and say we’re slowly getting into a position where we can stay in the Premier League and carry on as is up/down the two leagues. But something tells me people are tired of this. I know I am. 

[hogesar 9,658]

I think anyone looking from the outside in would think it absolutely nonsensical to sack Webber, and I'm pretty sure the owners would agree. 

Look at the club from when he first came in till now. Pretty much unrecognisable off the pitch and on it.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

Mel Morris out!!!! Say no more!

[Jim Smith 2,317]

As much as he winds me up at times and also I do think he is culpable for not sorting the key positions early enough in the window if you take Webber out of this set up at present we would be in a tight mess. I do think we have the quality in this squad to do ok and I don’t think our current on pitch issues are primarily down to recruitment. There are big tactical/style of play/coaching issues at present.

What I do want to see though from our Sporting Director is some leadership/ownership of the situation. Is he talking to Farke about what we can all see going wrong on the pitch? Is he offering him help? Will he float the idea of getting someone like Hodgson in as a defensive play consultant to give Daniel a hand?

[Jim Smith 2,317]

12 hours ago, chicken said:

I mean all of that is inconsequential. The post is long because it is considered, balanced and reasoned. I know I make good points. Sadly you continue to pursue with the very bad ones and continue to add to them. I tried to show where you were correct and should drive home the point, but in your two responses to me, you failed to pick up on them and run.

Not sure you could be much more patronising. Is it really necessary?

[robert choice 24]

32 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think anyone looking from the outside in would think it absolutely nonsensical to sack Webber, and I'm pretty sure the owners would agree. 

Look at the club from when he first came in till now. Pretty much unrecognisable off the pitch and on it.

I preferred the club when it was more rough around the edges rather than the squeaky clean all inclusive family obsessed business it has become.

 

The fight has gone and been replaced with complacency where what goes on, on the pitch isn't any more important than what is stashed in the bank.

 

 

[hogesar 9,658]

6 minutes ago, robert choice said:

I preferred the club when it was more rough around the edges rather than the squeaky clean all inclusive family obsessed business it has become.

 

The fight has gone and been replaced with complacency where what goes on, on the pitch isn't any more important than what is stashed in the bank.

 

 

Well, when Webber came in we were an ageing championship squad that hadn't been able to bounce back from relegation. In two seasons we'd become championship title winners with the inclusion of young players from our academy who became worth 10's of millions of pounds. Off the pitch we've transformed our already Category A academy with significant investment and Colney is a true Premier League training complex.

No idea what your 'all inclusive' comment is about, other than us being a football club which, like all others, fights against discrimination, racism etc.

No idea what fight you think has gone, to win a 46 game Championship season without any fight would be unbelievable and would equally warrant even more praise for Daniel and Stuart for achieving such a record without this so called fight.

[Midlands Yellow 3,980]

13 hours ago, chicken said:

Sadly, there is a good point hidden amongst the part I emboldened. What you have done though, is butchered that good point, quite horrendously.

Emi Buendia was about as far from representative of our winning mentality and carrier of momentum as you could find in our squad. He wanted gone last summer. Various sources have now supported this and made it relatively clear that whilst there was no official agreement there was some sort of mutual acceptance that he would leave at the end of last season. The deal itself was being orchestrated many months before May, when he moved.

There are two frequent failures in this argument in that usually players are sold upon relegation. And the club could have buckled and sold him last summer. This would have made returning to the premier league much more difficult. Even if we had received a similar amount of money for him, the calibre of player we could bring to the club in the Championship with ease would be vastly different to when in the premier league. Put another way, players that are potentially worth £10-£20m plying their trade in the German, French, Dutch, Italian or even Greek top leagues are not going to see themselves as championship players. Giannoulis, for example, came to us in January because he could see with some confidence that we would be promoted. He also had the security of it being a loan and that he would not have been signed if we did not gain promotion.

So when argued "no clubs sell their best players upon promotion" the reality is we fought to keep him to get the promotion we sold him after. If anyone was to have given most of us the choice of promotion or selling Buendia last summer which would we have taken? Promotion every time without fail. I don't want any player here that doesn't want to be. They become a rot that then sets in amongst the rest of the squad.

But lets go back a few steps. The emboldened bit. Specifically "carrying momentum and winning mentality". We had that in abundance in our last premier league campaign. A team buzzing and full of characters who may not have been the best footballers and so appreciated the feat they had managed of a championship title when very few had them down for a top 6 finish let alone No.1 spot.

Fast forward to this summer. On 1st August we had yet to sign 5 players - Sargent, Williams, Tzolis, Normann and Kabak. We had lost Stiepermann, Tettey, Vrancic, Leitner, Trybull, Klose, Drmic and were to lose Hernandez, Martin and Hugill on loan in addition. 10 players in and around the first team picture. 5 of them at least who had experienced the first promotion. Others whom were said to be big orchestrators of the dressing room positivity like Hernandez and Hugill, for example.

So, Sargent signed on the 9th August, the others all signed after him, though Tzolis closest to him on the 12th. Those two were therefore with the club for 6 weeks as of the Monday just gone. Two of those 6 weeks were spent away on international duty. So in reality have had four weeks training with the squad. Kabak and Normann signed at the end of August, not yet 4 weeks ago and again, both were away on international duty for two weeks meaning they have only spent just under two weeks training with our squad. Williams wasn't involved in international duty but was signed a month ago today.

Couple that with the fact that all of those plus Rashica, PLM, Gunn and Gilmore are also new editions this summer and the likes of Omobamidele who was only brought into the first team fold towards the end of last season and Mumba who played a bit part role you very much have a large percentage of players that are fresh to the team in terms of having experienced that championship tilt to carry that momentum and winning mentality.

That is always a huge risk of switching a lot of your players and clearly why Webber and Farke have previously gambled on players a notch or two bellow what they wanted to get them in early and get them bedded into the squad and team much sooner.

This isn't an excuse, it's merely an observation. We are seeing disconnection between players, lack of communication, lack of taking responsibility and leadership, some players waiting for commands rather than using initiative, balls not quite in keeping with the run being made etc etc etc. All signs of players not quite connecting and not quite on each others wavelengths.

Importantly this is also why I feel things are different now to the last ten games of two seasons ago. I don't feel that these are players, perhaps playing above their level not quite having the legs to carry them without the support of 27k fans to back them. What I see are individuals still adjusting to their surroundings and a frustrated coach wanting this much quicker than it's happening whilst also understanding it is a big, big ask.

The key question for me is that this is a new question of Farke. Given time with players he has often done well, getting more from a team than the collection of individuals on paper would suggest he should. He has had very little to no time this summer, either because of covid disrupting friendlies and training or because signings have come in much closer to the deadline and having less time and much more difficult games to get them up to speed with.

You can start four or five new players against Huddersfield in the championship and know that even if they can only give 2nd gear the rest of the team will carry them through. In the Premier League, against Man City, Liverpool, Leicester and even a poor Arsenal, those luxuries are ill afforded.

It's a big question. Farke now has the added pressure of trying to get this team clicking and working together whilst combating the additional stresses and strains of five league defeats in a row.

There isn't anything more to this than that. Is Farke capable of overcoming a scenario he hasn't really faced with us before whilst combating one he has?

The new players, on the whole, are not rubbish. They all have shown glimpses of quality, moments of class and flashes of why they have been brought in to replace those going out, just not consistently and not together as a whole. For me it is a coaching issue, a team issue, not one of players signed.

And our signings since Webber has come in have on the whole been a success. You can't expect them all to go well but we have had a high percentage of successes. 

Enjoyed reading this up to paragraph 50, cured my insomnia last night. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

54 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Not sure you could be much more patronising. Is it really necessary?

He was just trying to divert the attention from me pointing out that we didn't sign Lewis Grabban from a newly promoted Bournemouth, we signed him a year earlier, his posts may be "considered, balanced and reasoned" but they could do with some simple fact checking before he presses submit', because without that I'm justified in calling them 'lazy'.   

Edited September 24, 2021 by TeemuVanBasten

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Mel Morris out!!!! Say no more!

Makes zero sense.

He was the majority shareholder of Derby, equivalent to Delia and MWJ.

We're talking about our sporting director. 

I don't know if Derby have the equivalent position, but Steve McLaren is their technical director.

[king canary 7,605]

13 hours ago, chicken said:

The key question for me is that this is a new question of Farke. Given time with players he has often done well, getting more from a team than the collection of individuals on paper would suggest he should. He has had very little to no time this summer, either because of covid disrupting friendlies and training or because signings have come in much closer to the deadline and having less time and much more difficult games to get them up to speed with.

You can start four or five new players against Huddersfield in the championship and know that even if they can only give 2nd gear the rest of the team will carry them through. In the Premier League, against Man City, Liverpool, Leicester and even a poor Arsenal, those luxuries are ill afforded.

It's a big question. Farke now has the added pressure of trying to get this team clicking and working together whilst combating the additional stresses and strains of five league defeats in a row.

There isn't anything more to this than that. Is Farke capable of overcoming a scenario he hasn't really faced with us before whilst combating one he has?

The new players, on the whole, are not rubbish. They all have shown glimpses of quality, moments of class and flashes of why they have been brought in to replace those going out, just not consistently and not together as a whole. For me it is a coaching issue, a team issue, not one of players signed.

I think this is all spot on.

Farke has got a very different challenge on his hands and deserves time to make it work. The players should, on paper, be good enough so the pressure moves to the coach to make it work. It is an interesting test of Farke's adaptability as much as anything. Whether people are confident or not that we'll improve with time is, I imagine, largely linked to how much faith they have in Farke in this regard.

[Uncle Fred 526]

With one of the worst starts in premier league history and the lowest points in any league there are 3 things that could of how  wrong, 1) we recruited badly 2) we trained them badly 3) a combination of both

but the results are so poor that something has gone fundamentally wrong and the buck stops with Webber 

[king canary 7,605]

2 hours ago, Danke bitte said:

I appreciate what Webber has done for the club but there’s no room for the kind of football he wanted to implement in the Premier League with the type of player we can afford. 

We should have gone in pragmatically and played ugly football for a few seasons and incrementally changed out style. 

He arrogantly assumed his ‘Norwich Way’ would work. Who knows it might still but signs are, like last time, we’re too lightweight in the middle.

Getting in a new coach might help, I would say if he doesn’t pull the trigger on Farke should he not galvanise a turn around next 3 games, then questions hang over wether Webber is fit at the top. 

Alternatively, he could just turn around and say we’re slowly getting into a position where we can stay in the Premier League and carry on as is up/down the two leagues. But something tells me people are tired of this. I know I am. 

Maybe I'm wrong but Webber has never struck me as a pure football ideologue. Sure he wants teams to play good football but his record here shows an ability to be pragmatic. It was him, for example, who basically told Farke he was signing a proper central defender (which turned out to be Hanley) after the disastrous first few games of his reign.

Also the signings this season point to a desire to give Farke different options in how he plays. Last time we were very much wedded to the pretty, short passing, slow build up, play through teams style. This season, in attack at least, we've got multiple different options. Rashica and Tzolis for example are investments in players who will offer more direct running and don't object to getting to the byline and putting crosses in the box which the chance arises. Sargent is a much more physical prospect who is capable of winning aerial battles and offering that physical, defensive cover when out wide.  

To me the onus is on Farke now to show he knows how to use them- in my view he's much more the ideologue who is wedded to a very particular and quite extreme version of how football should be played. We aren't asking him to play like Stoke but he needs to show he can adapt. 

[kenfoggo 247]

No, not Webber out. He is an adequate Championship sports director, and that’s the place we will be. However, he did promise that lessons had been learnt from the last disastrous season in the Premiership. But we seem to be carrying on as we left off, losing!  5 straight losses, scoring only 2 goals and letting in 14 goals , no points. Surely Webber can see the joke that the Club has become?  This is under his watch, no excuses. We are where he has directed us to be.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

59 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think this is all spot on.

Farke has got a very different challenge on his hands and deserves time to make it work. The players should, on paper, be good enough so the pressure moves to the coach to make it work. It is an interesting test of Farke's adaptability as much as anything. Whether people are confident or not that we'll improve with time is, I imagine, largely linked to how much faith they have in Farke in this regard.

It is all irrelevant to the thread, which is a Webber Out thread... not a Farke Out thread.

That has apparently gone over chicken's head.

Edited September 24, 2021 by TeemuVanBasten

[chicken 2,624]

9 hours ago, Six Pack said:

If you were a defense lawyer at a murder trial, the murderer might get acquitted ! Well balance post with good points - but can be applied to most clubs with new players - clever but you are eluding the fact that Webber has brought in players with an inadequate ability to keep us in this league. Not sure they are better than those of two years ago either. This a way bigger challenge than the championship and Webber has been crudely exposed. You can't just bring in anyone and hope Farke converts them into a "someone".

You have the excuse of Liverpool, Man City, Leicester & Arsenal being difficult fixtures to start with but what about Watford and the Liverpool youth team ? We had players unable to stay on their feet attempting to shoot ! Any ball lobbed into our penalty area had a chance of a goal for the opposition - our defenders were so useless. Fair enough I thought Idah should have taken the penalty but any pro should have been able to stick the ball into one of the 4 corners at pace ! The quality shown that night was from the Liverpool teenagers - it was embarrassing - and all cameras were on DF - silently ridiculing him - they should have been on Webber !

Webber has spent £30m on three players, almost 10 times more than the entire group of 2018-19 - the quality is not there !

You need a lot more than just luck in this league and you can't just bring in average players and just pray they can perform. 

Webber is out of his depth !

You make another good point. Have we seen enough of these players to know if they are good enough? Can anyone be sure at this point?

I think it'd be hard to argue that Tzolis isn't looking like he could be, and potentially and some. Sargent has looked fairly decent as well. Rashica has shown glimpses but not the consistancy - I assume that's who you are saying we spent £30m on even though it is a good £3-5m less in reality.

This is sort of further muddied by those who think it is Farke who is out of his depth. If he is, then perhaps he isn't getting the best out of his players. So the players could be good enough but the lack of consistency is due to not finding a way for the players to perform at their best.

As for the 2019-20 squad - the issue is less about them being better and more being that they were old or have gone. Tettey, even every other game, gives you a level of stubbornness that is hard to find with a lot of energy and tenacity, and for me, he got better with age. Under Farke his passing was infinitely better. But at 35 and wobbly knees time was not on his side and we had to replace him.

I don't think by and large that squad was better in terms of quality. I think they had a togetherness and spirit that helped to get a lot more out of the squad than the sum of it's parts.

[king canary 7,605]

4 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

It is all irrelevant to the thread, which is a Webber Out thread... not a Farke Out thread.

That has apparently gone over chicken's head.

I don't see it as irrelevant.

The core point being that I don't think the players Webber has bought in are poor- so I don't agree he should be out. I think the onus is on Farke to use them better. 

Conversations and discussions evolve. 

[king canary 7,605]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

You make another good point. Have we seen enough of these players to know if they are good enough? Can anyone be sure at this point?

I think it'd be hard to argue that Tzolis isn't looking like he could be, and potentially and some. Sargent has looked fairly decent as well. Rashica has shown glimpses but not the consistancy - I assume that's who you are saying we spent £30m on even though it is a good £3-5m less in reality.

This is sort of further muddied by those who think it is Farke who is out of his depth. If he is, then perhaps he isn't getting the best out of his players. So the players could be good enough but the lack of consistency is due to not finding a way for the players to perform at their best.

As for the 2019-20 squad - the issue is less about them being better and more being that they were old or have gone. Tettey, even every other game, gives you a level of stubbornness that is hard to find with a lot of energy and tenacity, and for me, he got better with age. Under Farke his passing was infinitely better. But at 35 and wobbly knees time was not on his side and we had to replace him.

I don't think by and large that squad was better in terms of quality. I think they had a togetherness and spirit that helped to get a lot more out of the squad than the sum of it's parts.

I think its impossible for anyone to seriously claim that they can judge any of our new signings at this point. 

Kabak, Tzolis, Sargent and Normann all have a single league start. Rashica, Gilmour and Williams are the only ones even starting to build a sample size big enough to make any type of informed opinion and even then I don't think it can be firm judgement.

[chicken 2,624]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

He was just trying to divert the attention from me pointing out that we didn't sign Lewis Grabban from a newly promoted Bournemouth, we signed him a year earlier, his posts may be "considered, balanced and reasoned" but they could do with some simple fact checking before he presses submit', because without that I'm justified in calling them 'lazy'.   

I haven't attempted to divert attention, I got those wrong, but as they were not key to the points I was making, it's hardly damning is it? I should have looked them up but didn't, for once. Oh well. Life goes on.

It's not like I posted a video of a player as evidence to say he had no left foot and completely missed the goal in said video where he scores with his left foot is it?

I can point to a few threads where I have done a fair amount of research such as Buendia's assists to Pukki. And even in this, I looked up the dates players were signed on.

So this is rather starting to look like projection. You'd like me to be diverting attention but actually, all of the diverting has been on your part only.

You first response started with a divert - trying to criticise the length of my post rather than the content of it. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

10 minutes ago, chicken said:

I don't think by and large that squad was better in terms of quality. I think they had a togetherness and spirit that helped to get a lot more out of the squad than the sum of it's parts.

Plenty of teams have changed too much upon promotion and messed up the dressing room dynamic as a result, Fulham did it a couple of years ago. 

This can also be an argument for getting as much business as possible done early, rather than late in a window, so you have the bulk of your squad together for the duration of pre-season.

It is what I was critical of in my OP......

On 21/09/2021 at 21:27, TeemuVanBasten said:

How is he supposed to integrate a defensive midfielder brought in at the end of the transfer window, essential first XI players need to be through the door by early July for the full pre-season. Defensive midfield was our absolute number 1 priority position, it had to have been, and Webber has just done the whole of the pre-season without one.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by TeemuVanBasten

[chicken 2,624]

9 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

It is all irrelevant to the thread, which is a Webber Out thread... not a Farke Out thread.

That has apparently gone over chicken's head.

No, clearly it has all gone over yours.

Webber is in charge of signings, the coaching staff and the footballing side of the club such as the academy etc. So a bit of logic is needed here.

Since Webber arrived has the club improved both on and off the pitch in terms of the footballing aspect. There is only one answer here and it is a resounding YES.  Colney has improved, our academy has improved, we are seeing a path from the youth set up to the first team that is producing players of a high calibre.

Signings for the first team squad have been for the most part an improvement and brought quality to our side for the level needed at the time of their signing. There will always be flops, at every club, and the important thing is that they are not costly ones like Naismith. The scouting seems to be more reliable in that regard. Ben Marshall, Franke aside, other signings didn't succeed mainly due to the ability of existing players outgrowing them.

It is hard to say that Webber has been anything other than a success at this club in the time he has been here. Two promotions, two premier league seasons...

So then there is the other aspect - the coaching staff. And I think this is where Webber could have questions asked of him. If Farke continues to struggle, what does Webber do? And what he does will be the biggest question he has had to deal with and one many will then reflect on him with, especially if he does leave come the summer.

[chicken 2,624]

10 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Plenty of teams have changed too much upon promotion and messed up the dressing room dynamic as a result, Fulham did it a couple of years ago. 

This can also be an argument for getting as much business as possible done early, rather than late in a window, so you have the bulk of your squad together for the duration of pre-season.

It is what I was critical of in my OP......

"How is he supposed to integrate a defensive midfielder brought in at the end of the transfer window, essential first XI players need to be through the door by early July for the full pre-season. Defensive midfield was our absolute number 1 priority position, it had to have been, and Webber has just done the whole of the pre-season without one."

 

Yes, of course. I apologise, this is your thread, you've said it all before, no one can nor should disagree or even elaborate on a point you skimmed over - and I even gave you credit for making, just not as well as you should.

But you know, I never said that. And this is all irrelevant or a deflection as you don't agree with it as this is a thread about Webber out and you did the poll about Farke out... blah blah blah.

Edited September 24, 2021 by chicken

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 minute ago, chicken said:

No, clearly it has all gone over yours.

Webber is in charge of signings, the coaching staff and the footballing side of the club such as the academy etc. So a bit of logic is needed here.

Since Webber arrived has the club improved both on and off the pitch in terms of the footballing aspect. There is only one answer here and it is a resounding YES.  Colney has improved, our academy has improved, we are seeing a path from the youth set up to the first team that is producing players of a high calibre.

Signings for the first team squad have been for the most part an improvement and brought quality to our side for the level needed at the time of their signing. There will always be flops, at every club, and the important thing is that they are not costly ones like Naismith. The scouting seems to be more reliable in that regard. Ben Marshall, Franke aside, other signings didn't succeed mainly due to the ability of existing players outgrowing them.

It is hard to say that Webber has been anything other than a success at this club in the time he has been here. Two promotions, two premier league seasons...

So then there is the other aspect - the coaching staff. And I think this is where Webber could have questions asked of him. If Farke continues to struggle, what does Webber do? And what he does will be the biggest question he has had to deal with and one many will then reflect on him with, especially if he does leave come the summer.

I am perfectly entitled to consider Webber to have been a success here and having played his part in progressing this club and having done some good things for us, whilst also holding the view that if we don't stay up this year he should move on to a new challenge.

It was the same stance I took with McNally following the relegation which followed our mid-season transfer splurge. Did a great job here, but was time for him to move on.

I don't buy into this weird cult of personality or feel that people are owed some sort of undying loyalty, he has a job that he is paid money to perform. 

Nowhere do I say that Webber hasn't been a success here or helped us, I just think realistically this is his crack at establishing us in the Premier League, and if he can't do that then thanks for keeping hold of Category 1 and investing in Colney, and the two second tier titles, good memories, enjoy Germany! 

I mean, David McNally steered us away from administration, signed a club legend (Holt), lead us to a double promotion and then kept us in the Premier League for three seasons. Nobody can claim that he didn't do a good job. But you can't say we regret saying goodbye to him post-relegation can you, because if we didn't we wouldn't have Webber. And that Chicken.... is check mate. 

All good things come to an end, sometimes need fresh ideas. We've got a lot to thank both McNally and Webber for. Doesn't mean we have to give anybody a 15 year contract and get their faces tattooed on our bum cheeks. 

[chicken 2,624]

4 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I am perfectly entitled to consider Webber to have been a success here and having played his part in progressing this club and having done some good things for us, whilst also holding the view that if we don't stay up this year he should move on to a new challenge.

It was the same stance I took with McNally following the relegation which followed our mid-season transfer splurge. Did a great job here, but was time for him to move on.

I don't buy into this weird cult of personality or feel that people are owed some sort of undying loyalty, he has a job that he is paid money to perform. 

Nowhere do I say that Webber hasn't been a success here or helped us, I just think realistically this is his crack at establishing us in the Premier League, and if he can't do that then thanks for keeping hold of Category 1 and investing in Colney, and the two second tier titles, good memories, enjoy Germany! 

I mean, David McNally steered us away from administration, signed a club legend (Holt), lead us to a double promotion and then kept us in the Premier League for three seasons. Nobody can claim that he didn't do a good job. But you can't say we regret saying goodbye to him post-relegation can you, because if we didn't we wouldn't have Webber. And that Chicken.... is check mate. 

All good things come to an end, sometimes need fresh ideas. We've got a lot to thank both McNally and Webber for. Doesn't mean we have to give anybody a 15 year contract and get their faces tattooed on our bum cheeks. 

Thanks for your ridiculously long post... it bares no relevance to Webber Out though, as it's Out in the summer, not now, so bares not relevance unless it says "Webber OUT... in a few months" and therefore has nothing to do with now.

Tattoos bare no relevance. Nor does an imaginary "weird cult of personality". Please keep your posts brief and on track and relevant. There's a good chap. Oh, and if you could, please don't refer to chess as you clearly have no understanding of it.

What a bore. 

Oh, and be a good fellow and don't divert.

Edited September 24, 2021 by chicken

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

 

 

[Fuzzar 1,702]

It's astonishing how well Friendly Fridays took off.

[chicken 2,624]

11 hours ago, The Bunny said:

TLDR: Chicken doesn't particularly rate Buendia (plus usual argument about how he simply had to leave and the board had no choice, etc...).

Not rating the club's standout player the of last 10 years seems a bit of an odd point of view, but I guess he's entitled to his opinion. 

I do wonder if he formed this opinion before or after he left though. 

If I ever bump into you with any of my close friends and family you can ask them. I was also quite vocal with the silly stat about winning with him in the side compared to not when there were other players who had similar stats etc.

But you also get something importantly wrong here. "doesn't particularly rate Buendia" - I am always at pains to point out that this is not the case. Just that I simply do not subscribe to suggestions that he is our best ever player, greatest ever player, most talented ever player etc etc etc. That doesn't mean I don't rate him, it just means I don't hero-worship him. And generally I don't hero worship players anymore.

I don't subscribe to the hyperbole about him being the next best player to hit the premier league, the new Messi or some of the other claims folks have suggested. I don't think he was sold particularly cheaply and I don't think he is yet a top six player. I have always said he has the potential to become one, and like last season, he'd need to really realise that rather than just showing the potential. For a player in the position he plays, that needs to be more assists and more goals at Premier League level, something he struggled with last time out.

Has he proved he is as good as Dean Ashton/Chris Sutton/Hoolahan/Holt/Bellamy/Maddison/Peters etc etc etc. Not yet. 

[chicken 2,624]

21 minutes ago, Fuzzar said:

It's astonishing how well Friendly Fridays took off.

Quite...

*note to self, you can't even agree with TVB even a little bit on a Friday without sarky, rude responses.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]