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ged in the onion bag

Lessons of the Giannoulis red.

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Absolutely no criticism of Giannoulis for that very harsh sending off…. at full pelt the protagonist was Bournemouth’s Pearson, he was out of control, no question…. His ferocity got him to the ball quicker whilst for not expecting that speed / ferocity of challenge and consequently being point something of a point second late Dimitris is shown the red….

Can’t see how the ref could tell from his angle or the speed of the challenge but pretty convinced Giannoulis got himself sent off by his innocent reaction, as much as Pearson got him sent off for the theatrics.   Giannoulis looked baffled, like what did I do whilst Pearson was writhing around…. If Dimitris had got up and protested angrily at the challenge, he would have been yellow carded at best….    He effectively gave the ref the impression he was guilty… genuinely a decent behaviour but when we talk about being naïve, this sums up football….. last season, we got caught out not knowing the tricks, (being naïve) we were too nice and this is a typical learning incident.    We have to react angry (wronged) to get the decisions, put doubt in the refs mind… everyone else cheats, we need to play that game…. Players now drop to the deck at the slightest touch, its out and out cheating but refs tolerate it with complicity.    

Pearson must have been smirking like Mutley from **** Dastardly as Dimitris trapsed off but he spent the next 70 minutes attempting to do it again.    What a cheat.   

Common sense has gone from the game….. and the next Mark Hughes in the guise of Jonathan Woodgate embarrasses himself afterwards with an utter lack of class.  No comparison with Daniel Farke’s handling of the issue.   On the point of lacking class….. Danjuma, was brilliant but what a knobber.   

If it wasn’t for supporting the boys, sure I would have had enough of this game by now.   Full of cheats, incompetent officials and any integrity is long gone.    No longer the ‘beautiful’ game!  

Edited by ged in the onion bag
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The irony is that had Giannoulis taken the hit and gone down screaming like Pearson did it would have been Pearson that would have gone.

We need to be more savvy with this kind of stuff.

Edited by Rich T The Biscuit

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27 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Absolutely no criticism of Giannoulis for that very harsh sending off…. at full pelt the protagonist was Bournemouth’s Pearson, he was out of control, no question…. His ferocity got him to the ball quicker whilst for not expecting that speed / ferocity of challenge and consequently being point something of a point second late Dimitris is shown the red….

Can’t see how the ref could tell from his angle or the speed of the challenge but pretty convinced Giannoulis got himself sent off by his innocent reaction, as much as Pearson got him sent off for the theatrics.   Giannoulis looked baffled, like what did I do whilst Pearson was writhing around…. If Dimitris had got up and protested angrily at the challenge, he would have been yellow carded at best….    He effectively gave the ref the impression he was guilty… genuinely a decent behaviour but when we talk about being naïve, this sums up football….. last season, we got caught out not knowing the tricks, (being naïve) we were too nice and this is a typical learning incident.    We have to react angry (wronged) to get the decisions, put doubt in the refs mind… everyone else cheats, we need to play that game…. Players now drop to the deck at the slightest touch, its out and out cheating but refs tolerate it with complicity.    

Pearson must have been smirking like Mutley from **** Dastardly as Dimitris trapsed off but he spent the next 70 minutes attempting to do it again.    What a cheat.   

Common sense has gone from the game….. and the next Mark Hughes in the guise of Jonathan Woodgate embarrasses himself afterwards with an utter lack of class.  No comparison with Daniel Farke’s handling of the issue.   On the point of lacking class….. Danjuma, was brilliant but what a knobber.   

If it wasn’t for supporting the boys, sure I would have had enough of this game by now.   Full of cheats, incompetent officials and any integrity is long gone.    No longer the ‘beautiful’ game!  

We always seem to get a red 4/5 games before the end of the season. Probably fulfilling a quota knowing this corrupt FA

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There needs to be some retrospective action in these cases. In both rugby codes you can been punished after the game if replays might show its necessary. Or if the ref is unsure at the time.

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12 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

The irony is that had Giannoulis taken the hit and gone down screaming like Pearson did it would have been Pearson that would have gone.

We need to be more savvy with this kind of stuff.

Exactly this. Giannoulis got sent off because he jumped and struck the top of Pearson's leg in a downwards motion with his studs. If he'd kept his feet on the floor he might have been horribly injured, but Pearson could easily have been red carded.

What Giannoulis *should* have done is jumped out of the tackle entirely. The ball was lost and there was nothing to be gained by leaving his foot in there. It's pretty unfortunate, obviously no malice involved, but a poor split-second decision.

Everyone who keeps claiming that it's a ridiculous decision needs to consider why it wouldn't be overturned. It's not because there's a vast conspiracy against us, it's because there is no tolerance for 'tackling' with your studs coming downwards. It's a red card offence.

 

 

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While I can understand that perspective , I thought there was also no tolerance for a two footed lunge for the ball where the player has no control and could easily injure the opponent even if he gets the ball. I remember us having a player get a straight red for exactly the sort of challenge made by Pearson so I can’t understand why he wasn’t penalised?

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I don’t consider it a ridiculous decision, I just consider it to be a wrong one in the same way their third goal was offside and possibly their first.  Would the red be overturned? No, but that’s because of the FA rather than the rights and wrongs of it.

Pearson was looking to cheat the entire game, something should be done about it,but it won’t.

 

Edited by Branston Pickle
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5 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

While I can understand that perspective , I thought there was also no tolerance for a two footed lunge for the ball where the player has no control and could easily injure the opponent even if he gets the ball. I remember us having a player get a straight red for exactly the sort of challenge made by Pearson so I can’t understand why he wasn’t penalised?

Simply because Pearson's feet were on the ground and he won the ball cleanly. He would definitely have been sent off had he caught Giannoulis along with the ball, but he got there first and his studs didn't actually come close to him.

 

2 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

I don’t consider it a ridiculous decision, I just consider it to be a wrong one in the same way their third goal was offside and possibly their first.  Would the red be overturned? No, but that’s because of the FA rather than the rights and wrongs of it.

Pearson was looking to cheat the entire game, something should be done about it,but it won’t.

I'd argue that it's 'harsh' rather than 'wrong'. A yellow each would probably be more reasonable, but there's an objective reason why Giannoulis got the red card which is hard to contest.

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16 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Exactly this. Giannoulis got sent off because he jumped and struck the top of Pearson's leg in a downwards motion with his studs. If he'd kept his feet on the floor he might have been horribly injured, but Pearson could easily have been red carded.

What Giannoulis *should* have done is jumped out of the tackle entirely. The ball was lost and there was nothing to be gained by leaving his foot in there. It's pretty unfortunate, obviously no malice involved, but a poor split-second decision.

Everyone who keeps claiming that it's a ridiculous decision needs to consider why it wouldn't be overturned. It's not because there's a vast conspiracy against us, it's because there is no tolerance for 'tackling' with your studs coming downwards. It's a red card offence.

 

 

Except if you are playing in the FA Cup Semi Final right now

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2 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Simply because Pearson's feet were on the ground and he won the ball cleanly. He would definitely have been sent off had he caught Giannoulis along with the ball, but he got there first and his studs didn't actually come close to him.

 

If the right foot was on the ground, then approx 2 blades of grass were touching his boot, and anyway, he was studs up

He did get to the ball a fraction of a second before Giannoulis, so by your definition that is winning the ball cleanly. He was out of control (by modern rules) so, as both TV and radio commentators have already said (as well as neutral football people), Pearson was the one who they were expecting to be sent off. Because of modern rules, just because you get to the ball first, does not mean you are absolved from blame and there have been countless sendings off by the 'Pearson' in a tackle.

You try and justify that Giannoulis 'should' have pulled out of the tackle, again that is just not feasible , at that pace. You then would say, well, he needs to take the punishment, but look at it again (also look at Scott's actions, once he blew his whistle) and what Giannoulis does with his left leg during the last nano seconds before impact. If Pearson had stayed on his feet there would have been, pretty much, a block tackle by both players and nothing would have been said.

 

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But Pearson had his studs showing surely ? He only didn’t catch Giannoulis because he lifted up his feet, Pearson had no control of his challenge at that point which I thought is what gets penalised when you go to ground?

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38 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Exactly this. Giannoulis got sent off because he jumped and struck the top of Pearson's leg in a downwards motion with his studs. If he'd kept his feet on the floor he might have been horribly injured, but Pearson could easily have been red carded.

What Giannoulis *should* have done is jumped out of the tackle entirely. The ball was lost and there was nothing to be gained by leaving his foot in there. It's pretty unfortunate, obviously no malice involved, but a poor split-second decision.

Everyone who keeps claiming that it's a ridiculous decision needs to consider why it wouldn't be overturned. It's not because there's a vast conspiracy against us, it's because there is no tolerance for 'tackling' with your studs coming downwards. It's a red card offence.

 

 

I feel this is the same conversation as last night, where a few conspiracy theorists claim we were the victim of a biased ref, Petriix posts the common sense response, I agree and point out that if Pearson had committed the tackle Giannoulis did then we'd be baying for blood.

Clearly no intent from Giannoulis, but that's going to be given as a red card in the vast majority of cases nowadays.

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1 minute ago, Crabbycanary3 said:

If the right foot was on the ground, then approx 2 blades of grass were touching his boot, and anyway, he was studs up

He did get to the ball a fraction of a second before Giannoulis, so by your definition that is winning the ball cleanly. He was out of control (by modern rules) so, as both TV and radio commentators have already said (as well as neutral football people), Pearson was the one who they were expecting to be sent off. Because of modern rules, just because you get to the ball first, does not mean you are absolved from blame and there have been countless sendings off by the 'Pearson' in a tackle.

You try and justify that Giannoulis 'should' have pulled out of the tackle, again that is just not feasible , at that pace. You then would say, well, he needs to take the punishment, but look at it again (also look at Scott's actions, once he blew his whistle) and what Giannoulis does with his left leg during the last nano seconds before impact. If Pearson had stayed on his feet there would have been, pretty much, a block tackle by both players and nothing would have been said.

 

It's the little jump that Giannoulis did that got him sent off. I've watched it over and over again. He could easily have kept his foot out of the tackle. Pearson was already committed. I 'smart' player would have taken the hit from on the ground and got Pearson sent off, a sensible player would have jumped over Pearson's legs; a naive player would leave their studs in.

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Its not what Giannoulis should have done in the tackle at all....... that is split second spur of the moment stuff and instinctive... he got caught out by the speed and ferocity of the challenge and his foot being in an uncompromising position regardless that there was no intent and he could hardly be accused of being wreckless in that instance if Pearson gets away with being innocent................ but the fact is he got sent off for the naive reaction afterwards... (not a criticism) what i am saying is that we (as a team) will need to be a lot cuter in the aftermath of these type of incidents.... play the victim / be angry at the opponent etc.... Pearson did it very well and conned the ref..     No way that ref saw a sending off offence by Giannoulis in real time!

They used to say refs dont understand the game, theyve never played it.... well they are being exposed to that argument big time now by players conning them every time they feel a tap.   

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I feel really sorry for Giannoulis, a very harsh red and I can’t criticise him for it as just like Buendia against ‘Boro tried to pull out of the challenge. After what went on involving Pearson throughout the game I’d say his main skill is tackling tackles and that he’s probably the best playmaker in the Championship 😉

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3 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I feel this is the same conversation as last night, where a few conspiracy theorists claim we were the victim of a biased ref, Petriix posts the common sense response, I agree and point out that if Pearson had committed the tackle Giannoulis did then we'd be baying for blood.

Clearly no intent from Giannoulis, but that's going to be given as a red card in the vast majority of cases nowadays.

My point is not about Giannoulis and if a player makes contact with a players leg, he shouldn't be sent off. The Ref wasn't biased, he was just wrong.

It is that Pearson's challenge was worse than Giannoulis's. Trying to defend the point with Giannoulis was naive is ridiculous. I know it gets players sent off, but using that as justification is a road that none of us want football to go down (but of course it already is, but doesn't mean we have to accept it).

The Ref was unsure at first, he even had a word with Pearson before showing the card. A brutal tackle would get the red card out quicker than Usain Bolt, but that isn't what happened. Whether he got a word from the Lino, (Who had Smith badgering him) is another matter, but that Ref was not 100% sure what happened.

If Pearson was not out of control, that would have been a conventional tackle by 2 players, and the game would have continued. Nothing to see here Officer.

You cannot build up the case for Giannoulis being sent off by not accepting that Pearson was out of control (as per modern Laws), that just weakens your point. 

 

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Pearson really clearly won the ball then Giannoulis caught him with his momentum coming down from literally jumping into the challenge. Pearson's studs were low to the ground and pointing away from Giannoulis. The closer you look the worse it gets.

Screenshot_20210418-191013_YouTube.thumb.jpg.36c3fa17fa7ed31297bcc5341835c541.jpgScreenshot_20210418-190917_YouTube.thumb.jpg.681a5d5812e5643f401d4aee4c12bc7e.jpg

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Have a look at Diallo's yellow card  (on Vardy) today and listen to Hoddle saying he 'overstretched'. It was  the same as Giannoulis, if not worse, imo

 

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47 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Simply because Pearson's feet were on the ground and he won the ball cleanly. He would definitely have been sent off had he caught Giannoulis along with the ball, but he got there first and his studs didn't actually come close to him.

 

I'd argue that it's 'harsh' rather than 'wrong'. A yellow each would probably be more reasonable, but there's an objective reason why Giannoulis got the red card which is hard to contest.

Pearson’s feet weren’t on the ground though. He was lunging  two footed. 

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4 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Pearson really clearly won the ball then Giannoulis caught him with his momentum coming down from literally jumping into the challenge. Pearson's studs were low to the ground and pointing away from Giannoulis. The closer you look the worse it gets.

 

You are not going to change your mind, you've come too far with this, but if Giannoulis is jumping into the challenge  then what is Pearson doing? Just to clarify, it's Giannoulis's fault that he didn't anticipate Pearson being horizontal in the tackle? Surely Giannoulis thought, here comes a tackle, and if by chance, Pearson does go off his feet, then , by modern Laws, I'll be protected, because he will get carded for being out of control. I'll just do a block tackle and we'll crack on from there

So, were Pearson's both feet on the ground, or were his studs low to the ground? Make your mind up.  

 

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12 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Pearson really clearly won the ball then Giannoulis caught him with his momentum coming down from literally jumping into the challenge. Pearson's studs were low to the ground and pointing away from Giannoulis. The closer you look the worse it gets.

Screenshot_20210418-191013_YouTube.thumb.jpg.36c3fa17fa7ed31297bcc5341835c541.jpgScreenshot_20210418-190917_YouTube.thumb.jpg.681a5d5812e5643f401d4aee4c12bc7e.jpg

There is a photo from the frame before that where you can see that Dimi is quite clearly ready to receive the ball (and going for the ball) with the foot that ends up making (light) contact with Pearson’s leg. He just wasn’t expecting Pearson to lunge in like a lunatic and basically slide his leg under his foot. 

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You can't be selective as both players were committed to the tackle (not just Pearson as you say) , as if you watch it at normal speed, there was an equal space between each player and the ball. With Giannoulis being pretty vertical, that again weakens your jumping into the tackle argument. Also the tackle was dealing with that finer margins that the ball did not shoot off from Pearson getting there first, it obviously hits Giannoulis in the tackle and would have trickled out of play if the Bournemouth player hadn't stopped it

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT5n547qCZo&t=91s

Just watch the video. Immediately before the contact Giannoulis jumps *up* while Pearson flies in sideways. Giannoulis really didn't need to jump like that. Pearson goes in strongly with one foot, it's arguably reckless, but Giannoulis literally had no chance of winning the ball by the time he jumped.

If I were the referee I would have given them a yellow each (after watching it back countless times). It's a harsh decision but you have to be pretty deluded to not be able to understand why it was given. There was absolutely nothing to gain by making the challenge and it ultimately cost us the match.

Edited by Petriix

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3 minutes ago, Petriix said:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DT5n547qCZo?start=104" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Just watch the video. Immediately before the contact Giannoulis jumps *up* while Pearson flies in sideways. Giannoulis really didn't need to jump like that. Pearson goes in strongly with one foot, it's arguably reckless, but Giannoulis literally had no chance of winning the ball by the time he jumped.

If I were the referee I would have given them a yellow each (after watching it back countless times). It's a harsh decision but you have to be pretty deluded to not be able to understand why it was given. There was absolutely nothing to gain by making the challenge and it ultimately cost us the match.

He “hops” in the way I think we probably all would if we suddenly realised a lunatic was lunging in at us at 100mph with his studs up. Dimis eyes were on the ball which is what he was going for. We won’t get it reversed because the slow mos show contact but similarly if the ref had sent Pearson off that wouldn’t be reversed either. 

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There was a similar incident in the Wolves v Sheff Utd match, swap Pearson for Brewster and Giannoulis for Ait-Nouri, no card for Ait-Nouri and a yellow for Brewster.  Just shows the inconsistencies of referees.

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The simple reason that one of them got sent off and the other didn't is that one of them played the ball and the other caught the man. If you're going to jump in then you have to be sure you're winning the ball. It's disappointing from a Norwich point of view and it's easy to point the finger at the 'cheating' Pearson or the 'awful' referee, but Giannoulis got it wrong and paid the price. He needs to quickly learn what he *should* do if a lunatic comes flying in because he's going to experience a lot more tackles like that next season. Hint, the answer isn't to raise your studs. 

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1 minute ago, Petriix said:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DT5n547qCZo?start=104" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Just watch the video. Immediately before the contact Giannoulis jumps *up* while Pearson flies in sideways. Giannoulis really didn't need to jump like that. Pearson goes in strongly with one foot, it's arguably reckless, but Giannoulis literally had no chance of winning the ball by the time he jumped.

If I were the referee I would have given them a yellow each (after watching it back countless times). It's a harsh decision but you have to be pretty deluded to not be able to understand why it was given. There was absolutely nothing to gain by making the challenge and it ultimately cost us the match.

I have not said I do not understand why it was given, but that is using the very simple formula that Giannoulis made contact half way up Pearson's shin, but that is no where near all the story.

Pearson goes in 'strongly' and 'flies in' and there is no question, it isn't 'arguably' reckless, by modern rules it is out and out reckless (out of control) !

Again, I totally disagree that Giannoulis didn't have a chance of winning the ball, by the time he went into the tackle (as per my previous posts about distance), of course he did, they both made contact with the ball within an inch or two of the ball's movement. 

You now say you would have issued a yellow card to each, so that is saying they should have got the same punishment, yet one got a red and the other got nothing

The Ref was unsure, wasn't he?

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