Male Violence

[TheGunnShow 5,991]

11 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

You've made some very sweeping comments there. Female violence against males is not extremely rare and in fact is probably the most under reported of all crimes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_men

Having once experienced a drunk woman come at me with a knife because I hadn't cut the grass I can assure you that women can be very frightening people. When I made a complaint to the police I was asked what I'd done to provoke her  I told the two police officers it was because I hadn't cut the grass. The female officer laughed. 

Part of that would actually back up the whole notion of toxic attitudes, wrapped up in increasingly antiquated notions of masculinity, being part of the problem. That is not to say there's also some of the same toxic behaviour in women in terms of attacking men in the same way men attack women (or indeed other men), but prevailing taboos about masculine expectations are precisely the kind of thing some of us would say are indeed toxic.

I said before that this notion we men just have to "suck things up" is basically disproportionally doing us in, as mental health statistics and suicide figures make abundantly clear. This excerpt from your link is stating fundamentally the same thing.

"According to the journalist Martin Daubney "...there remains a theory that men under report their experiences [of violence by women against men] due to a culture of masculine expectations."^[28] The official figure in the United Kingdom, for example, is about 50% of the number of acts of violence by men against women, but there are indications that only about 10% of male victims of female violence report the incidents to the authorities, mainly due to taboos, fears of misunderstanding, and fears of not being believed or even ridiculed by authorities, created by a culture of masculine expectations.^[29]"  

[Bill 1,788]

19 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And the report you cite actually says that the most under reported crime is domestic violence perpetrated by males on females. I'm sure a drunk person attacking you with a knife would be frightening whatever the sex of the assailant, but what do you think the facts show about the likelihood of that assailant being a male or female?

As is the fear many men have of being followed late at night by a woman, or the fear that some woman could use extreme violence to sexually assault him or worse.

Odd that never gets commented on, some might think.

Violence by women against men is almost always within the domestic realm. It is not an act that is carried out on men in their everyday lives. I have yet to read of a man being attacked and murdered by a woman whilst he was going about his normal business - and certainly no serial female killer in such behaviour.

Posting up such whataboutery' goes to the heart of things I would suggest. Whereby  woman cannot be afforded 'honour' of suffering far worse than men, so it should therefore be shown how that is not the case....however absurd that evidence is in relation to this problem

[The Real Buh 3,480]

[Orly 277]

53 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I'm sorry but I think you are completely missing the point here. No-one has said that all males behave in this fashion, the point is that there is a conception of masculinity (yes, toxic masculinity) that explains phenomena that you seem to want to ignore. Why is it that 90% of murders are caused by males? Why is it that sexual assaults are almost exclusive perpetrated by males? Why is it that over 90% of domestic violence is perpetrated by men? I could go on with the statistics but it really shouldn't be the case that anyone is unaware of the blindingly obvious. Sadly they show that women have good reason to be fearful of men but men have no reason to be fearful of women. Thousands upon thousands of women each year are victims of male aggression whereas female aggression upon males is extremely rare. The fact that young males are more likely to be violently assaulted on the streets by males than women are only confirms that there is a problem with toxic masculinity. 

Why not simply listen to what women are saying about their daily experiences of abuse and harassment from men, and their fear of violent assault from men. To ask men to reflect on their experience and practice of masculinity is not some sort of bizarre communist plot (as some seem to be ridiculously suggesting). It is simply to say to them that women in our society are sick and tired of ingrained male attitudes that make their lives miserable, and that with a bit of critical reflection we might just be able to live out a masculine life that enhances the relationship between men and women. Frankly I long for the day when I don't feel the need to cross the road if I find myself walking behind a woman at night because I know she is very likely to be feeling fear of the man walking behind her. Sadly from some of the views expressed on here I fear that day is not going to come along soon. I'm sure you are a decent man who would not dream of committing the sort of abuse against women that is prevalent. All I'm suggesting is that rather than dismiss a concept like toxic masculinity, you take a a good look at the statistics on male abuse of woman, listen to women's experiences, and recognise that there is a real problem here that needs addressing. Surely we can at least all agree that things could be an awful lot better than they are.

Firstly, I do listen, and I have always listened to women, so please do not assume otherwise.  I've personally intervened in public on more than one occasion to support women (and men) who were being harassed / attacked, at my own risk.  And I will continue to do so should the need arise again.

This message is being directed AT (all) men and so I object to the suggestion of men's subconscious and implicit participation in cultural 'toxic masculinity'. Nor do I need this charge levelling at me to encourage me to act virtuously towards women or anyone.     If the charge is conscious participation then that's even worse.

Secondly, I am of the belief that men and women are different (but only to some very small extent - there are many more similarities than differences) particularly in terms of  temperament (e.g. natural aggression, hence men more often being the perpetrators of violent crime), and that this is a result of biological influence, not social conditioning or construct.  And that therefore, trying to implement a cultural change through society, without the understanding or acceptance of inherent differences biologically is starting from the wrong point entirely.

In my opinion, you won't reach the men who have these aggressive inclinations with a campaign of cultural change, but you will heighten the divide between sexes by insisting upon it.  No individual should bear the sins of their gender, race, etc.  People don't stack neatly into identity groups, they are too many differing identities to sub-categorise by.  White / Black, British / Irish, Gay / Straight, Male / Female / Trans, Left wing / Right wing, the list goes on, and on, and on.  We're all human beings.  Treat other people as you wish to be treated yourself.  It's really that simple.

I don't know the solution to keeping everyone safe, I wish I did.  But this is not it and not only that but I am genuinely fearful that it will actually make this problem worse.

[Bill 1,788]

" No individual should bear the sins of their gender, race, etc.  People don't stack neatly into identity groups, they are too many differing identities to sub-categorise by.  "

you then go on to sub categorise them

"White  as such/ Black, British / Irish, Gay / Straight, Male / Female / Trans, Left wing / Right wing, the list goes on, and on, and on.  "

The reality is that in general the male body is stronger than the female - so on basis t offers a greater chance of inflicting violence..

Yes there is a need for cultural change.

Not so long ago violence towards a wife was deemed a domestic, and was seen as acceptable and caused by a failing in the wife  Not long back violent and sexual attacks on women were seen as 'she was asking for it; by both the police and the courts, if the victim was thought to have dressed 'inappropriately'.

We have come along way since those days of only decades ago. We will go a lot further when some stop seeing this as an attack on the whole male species, one which happens to be them.

[paul moy 235]

On 12/03/2021 at 12:28, Herman said:

I thought we all could unite about this subject and try and find a way to make life less risky and provide a safer environment for half of the population of this country. But no, along comes the whataboutery, distractions and diversion away from the main subject. Why don't you want this talked about? 

The left are hypocrites.  It was Blair that allowed much softer sentencing and release after serving half the prison term, when harsh sentences are surely what we need. 

We allow murderers out of prison early to commit further murders. With the death penalty this would not happen.  The left need to seriously look at themselves in the mirror as the blame for much of the current ills can be laid at their door imo.  

 

 

[Herman 9,820]

Although your point is completely irrelevant to what is being discussed,as per usual, you constantly forget that the Conservatives have been in charge for over ten years.

[paul moy 235]

3 minutes ago, Herman said:

Although your point is completely irrelevant to what is being discussed,as per usual, you constantly forget that the Conservatives have been in charge for over ten years.

You don't like the truth as usual.  It was the left that also helped to rid us of 'stop and search', yet another reason for escalating deaths in London among black youths.  Wokeness and political correctness is the enemy !!!

[Herman 9,820]

As was pointed out this isn't a left/right problem. It's a social problem that needs looking at and trying to understand our part (men) in it and what we can do to help. You can carry on with your childish "culture war" crap or you can come up with some sensible ideas.

[Bill 1,788]

41 minutes ago, Herman said:

As was pointed out this isn't a left/right problem. It's a social problem that needs looking at and trying to understand our part (men) in it and what we can do to help. You can carry on with your childish "culture war" crap or you can come up with some sensible ideas.

it's the same sh it whatever name he posts under - always had been

[horsefly 4,310]

2 hours ago, Orly said:

Firstly, I do listen, and I have always listened to women, so please do not assume otherwise.  I've personally intervened in public on more than one occasion to support women (and men) who were being harassed / attacked, at my own risk.  And I will continue to do so should the need arise again.

This message is being directed AT (all) men and so I object to the suggestion of men's subconscious and implicit participation in cultural 'toxic masculinity'. Nor do I need this charge levelling at me to encourage me to act virtuously towards women or anyone.     If the charge is conscious participation then that's even worse.

Secondly, I am of the belief that men and women are different (but only to some very small extent - there are many more similarities than differences) particularly in terms of  temperament (e.g. natural aggression, hence men more often being the perpetrators of violent crime), and that this is a result of biological influence, not social conditioning or construct.  And that therefore, trying to implement a cultural change through society, without the understanding or acceptance of inherent differences biologically is starting from the wrong point entirely.

In my opinion, you won't reach the men who have these aggressive inclinations with a campaign of cultural change, but you will heighten the divide between sexes by insisting upon it.  No individual should bear the sins of their gender, race, etc.  People don't stack neatly into identity groups, they are too many differing identities to sub-categorise by.  White / Black, British / Irish, Gay / Straight, Male / Female / Trans, Left wing / Right wing, the list goes on, and on, and on.  We're all human beings.  Treat other people as you wish to be treated yourself.  It's really that simple.

I don't know the solution to keeping everyone safe, I wish I did.  But this is not it and not only that but I am genuinely fearful that it will actually make this problem worse.

This response tells us all we need to know. It's just a stubborn refusal to challenge your self-confirmed beliefs, and a misrepresentation of what others have said. You're no doubt right that we are wasting our time trying to get someone like you to consider different approaches, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to engage with others who might be more open to change. If you had turned on your radio today you would have heard countless women begging men to do just that. If you honestly think that asking men to critically think through what masculinity means would actually make things worse then I really do despair of your view that progress on male aggression towards women isn't possible. I'm afraid everything you have said is simply not supported by the evidence. The claim that we are "simply human beings", that "temprament" is a result of biological influence, not social conditioning or construct" is remarkably naive and simply wrong. Why do some men beat their wives and others channel their "natural agression" into other constructive responses? If you don't think cultural influences and upbringing play any part in explaining those differences then I'd like to hear your explanation of what does. And how you would explain developments in the treatment of women that have occured in this country in the last 100 years in purely biological terms defies understanding. As far as some men posting here are concerned there is still a long way to go before that improvement is anywhere near adequate. Frankly, we're happy to challenge our own behaviour and consider the possibility that our understanding of masculinity is open to improvement in all sorts of ways (just like TheGunnShow suggested above). 

[paul moy 235]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

As was pointed out this isn't a left/right problem. It's a social problem that needs looking at and trying to understand our part (men) in it and what we can do to help. You can carry on with your childish "culture war" crap or you can come up with some sensible ideas.

Typical left. They point something out and it must be true........ 🤣

[Orly 277]

13 minutes ago, horsefly said:

This response tells us all we need to know. It's just a stubborn refusal to challenge your self-confirmed beliefs, and a misrepresentation of what others have said. You're no doubt right that we are wasting our time trying to get someone like you to consider different approaches, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to engage with others who might be more open to change. If you had turned on your radio today you would have heard countless women begging men to do just that. If you honestly think that asking men to critically think through what masculinity means would actually make things worse then I really do despair of your view that progress on male aggression towards women isn't possible. I'm afraid everything you have said is simply not supported by the evidence. The claim that we are "simply human beings", that "temprament" is a result of biological influence, not social conditioning or construct" is remarkably naive and simply wrong. Why do some men beat their wives and others channel their "natural agression" into other constructive responses? If you don't think cultural influences and upbringing play any part in explaining those differences then I'd like to hear your explanation of what does. And how you would explain developments in the treatment of women that have occured in this country in the last 100 years in purely biological terms defies understanding. As far as some men posting here are concerned there is still a long way to go before that improvement is anywhere near adequate. Frankly, we're happy to challenge our own behaviour and consider the possibility that our understanding of masculinity is open to improvement in all sorts of ways (just like TheGunnShow suggested above). 

I'll make one clarification as you've misunderstood - with regards to a biological proclivity to violence, I was only referring to the crime committed - murder - not ALL gender based issues that women face (for example, sexual harassment / objectification / discrimination, etc etc) which a case for cultural intervention / further education is perfectly plausible.

Ordinarily I'd be happy to clarify further however you seem intent on being wholly dismissive of any other viewpoint but yours - and that's your prerogative, but doesn't make for fruitful discussion, so I'm out.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, paul moy said:

You don't like the truth as usual.  It was the left that also helped to rid us of 'stop and search', yet another reason for escalating deaths in London among black youths.  Wokeness and political correctness is the enemy !!!

Just do the maths. Last 100 years of Government.

Conservative 74  Labour 26. Or 3 to 1.

Blame yourselves for any problems. You have had plenty of opportunity to sort it out.

You have been in government for all the wars apart from Tory Blair's illegal one.

You closed down the Coal Mines and now want to open one.

And you have overseen the diluting of the police force so that it is thousands short of the numbers it needs.

And no-one got rid of stop and search. They just stopped the right wing elements of the Met Police assuming every young black male was up to something and searching the same people time and time again.

[FenwayFrank 2,467]

I see that a lot of people decided that the vigil wasn’t cancelled after all

[horsefly 4,310]

4 hours ago, paul moy said:

We allow murderers out of prison early to commit further murders. With the death penalty this would not happen. 

Do tell us what the figures are for a convicted murderer repeating the offence on release. Perhaps you would like us to copy the USA, they have the death penalty and you never hear of any murders there do you? 

Edited March 13, 2021 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,310]

4 hours ago, paul moy said:

  It was Blair that allowed much softer sentencing and release after serving half the prison term, when harsh sentences are surely what we need. 

I didn't realise Blair had enforced a law that meant the last 10 years of Tory rule couldn't alter sentencing policy. Dumbass!

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Very good data on the BBC website on violence toward men and women.

Of course Moy will say its a Marxist Corporation and shouldn't be taken seriously whereas all his comes from the neutral and reliable Guido.

[horsefly 4,310]

4 hours ago, paul moy said:

The left are hypocrites

Says the man who is posting on a thread about male violence, aggression and abuse against women, who wrote a couple of months ago that "all women are bought one way or another"

[horsefly 4,310]

2 hours ago, Orly said:

I'll make one clarification as you've misunderstood - with regards to a biological proclivity to violence, I was only referring to the crime committed - murder - not ALL gender based issues that women face (for example, sexual harassment / objectification / discrimination, etc etc) which a case for cultural intervention / further education is perfectly plausible.

Ordinarily I'd be happy to clarify further however you seem intent on being wholly dismissive of any other viewpoint but yours - and that's your prerogative, but doesn't make for fruitful discussion, so I'm out.

 

I didn't misunderstand anything, I suggest you re-read your own post because you said nothing of the sort there. You can't clarify a point you haven't made.

[Orly 277]

28 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I didn't misunderstand anything, I suggest you re-read your own post because you said nothing of the sort there. You can't clarify a point you haven't made.

Of course, I'm sure you never do and never have.  Have a pleasant evening.

[The Real Buh 3,480]

It’s all kicking off at the vigil

ill ask again, is there a single social cause in this country that hasn’t been co-opted and ruined by the far left?

I’m telling you, this collectivism makes you weak. Weak people hurt everyone around them. Choose the path of strong individualism.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

The only thing I cannot get to grips with is if there are so many people being attacked, especially women, why has it taken until now to protest?

[The Real Buh 3,480]

6 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

The only thing I cannot get to grips with is if there are so many people being attacked, especially women, why has it taken until now to protest?

The far left exploiting a tragic situation for political capital?

[Herman 9,820]

16 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

The only thing I cannot get to grips with is if there are so many people being attacked, especially women, why has it taken until now to protest?

I don't know. It's weird how one single event out of hundreds can finally set the ball in motion. It's like the George Floyd incident. This wasn't the first killing but it set off something in people.

[TheGunnShow 5,991]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

I don't know. It's weird how one single event out of hundreds can finally set the ball in motion. It's like the George Floyd incident. This wasn't the first killing but it set off something in people.

Probably a realisation that old problems are not yet resolved. I'd add social media to it though as it dissipates news far quicker than what we ever had in the past.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 minutes ago, Herman said:

I don't know. It's weird how one single event out of hundreds can finally set the ball in motion. It's like the George Floyd incident. This wasn't the first killing but it set off something in people.

So I looked at the data on the BBC homepage and us men should be protesting more than women.

I don't buy Buhs collectivism but if I wanted to be sarcastic or facetious I would say its florists and candle makers initiating the protests.

In reality, it reminds me of the 1968 riots, when the perfect storm of problems culminated in violent protest in many of the World's major cities.

[sonyc 5,541]

30 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

It’s all kicking off at the vigil

ill ask again, is there a single social cause in this country that hasn’t been co-opted and ruined by the far left?

I’m telling you, this collectivism makes you weak. Weak people hurt everyone around them. Choose the path of strong individualism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Übermensch

I keep reading you post about the "strong man" and the weak man and it reminded me of Nietzsche's book "Thus Spake Zarathrusta" and the description he gives of the Overman. I include a wiki link here.

It might be the sort of book you'd like to read TRB. He is very interesting in his philosophy but of course was followed later by less honourable people. He hated the herd and of course the "weak" and believed in the creative power of the individual. Lots of similarities with the views you've been expressing in this thread. I am not sure what his views were about women but then you haven't really touched on your view of women in this thread.

Anyway, offering this for interest. You have very strong views and like to express them and sometimes its good to read around any subject.

 

[The Real Buh 3,480]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

So I looked at the data on the BBC homepage and us men should be protesting more than women.

I don't buy Buhs collectivism but if I wanted to be sarcastic or facetious I would say its florists and candle makers initiating the protests.

In reality, it reminds me of the 1968 riots, when the perfect storm of problems culminated in violent protest in many of the World's major cities.

You have sacrificed your individualism for the perceived safety of collectivism. All it cost you was the power of thought.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

You have sacrificed your individualism for the perceived safety of collectivism. All it cost you was the power of thought.

Thought so