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horsefly

Male Violence

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Just listened to Jess Phillips reading out the names of women killed by men in the last year. An appalling 118 names (one every 3 days). She has done this for many years now and nothing has changed. Time has surely come for men to address the issue of the toxic masculinity that lies behind these terrible figures. 

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I'll start with a disclaimer, namely that I am aware the following is in the most general of terms.

There is a toxic masculinity issue, but I think the focus should be in a different place - by focusing on violence against women we run the risk of making it a "battle of the sexes" where IMO there really is no need for such a battle. Classic case - suicides. Put simply, young men are far more likely to off themselves. They don't just harm women...badly integrated men harm everyone.

It's increasingly documented that women keep better social ties than men, and also that women tend to rebound from relationship breakdowns quicker. The current hypothesis behind this is that their better social ties help with this. Men are essentially conditioned to think they should devote everything to their partner at the expense of good friendships, relatively speaking.

Worse still, men are often told just to "suck it up" or "be a man". Increasingly, being a man = offing yourself due to stigma around mental illness (and also poor mental service provision, so another reason to appreciate the stance by Harry and Meghan) and it not being considered "manly" to ask for help when sorely needed.

In short, part of toxic masculinity is lone-wolfing yourself into oblivion when you need help.

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I’ll take the bait 

Hang them

Murders used to make the front page now 90% plus  don’t make the Nationals

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Violence of this level is that of the bully, and is not curbed by righty nonsense of string ;em all up. As if that were the case then the supposed lax sentencing would suggest it is merely the deterrent effect that is stopping all men from being violent attackers, rather than there being other reasons for them not being killers.

Aside from the obvious horrors of these murders and associated violence it would be interesting to see how the UK murder rate in this area compares to other similar countries to see where there is some cultural or societal cause - and how many of those murdered knew their murderer, or were murdered by strangers

 

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3 hours ago, horsefly said:

Just listened to Jess Phillips reading out the names of women killed by men in the last year. An appalling 118 names (one every 3 days). She has done this for many years now and nothing has changed. Time has surely come for men to address the issue of the toxic masculinity that lies behind these terrible figures. 

There were 682 men murdered last year (almost six every three days). Why didn't Jess Phillips read out their names?

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1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

There were 682 men murdered last year (almost six every three days). Why didn't Jess Phillips read out their names?

The correct comparison would be the number of men killed by women.

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2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

There were 682 men murdered last year (almost six every three days). Why didn't Jess Phillips read out their names?

What is it with you, do you just come on here to pick fights? 

Domestic abuse either way is never fully investigated nor intervention made before things escalate. It’s a sad fact that most of the time it’s caused by family or financial pressure and fuelled by drink, there are a few cases of just pure evil b******ds too.

RTB raises a point which I agree with, though his manner is a little questionable, but murder in this country appears to be less of a crime than fraud! Makes you wonder where our legal system priority points!

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1 hour ago, MooreMarriot said:

The correct comparison would be the number of men killed by women.

Does this include stress-induced heart attacks?  😉

.

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31 minutes ago, Indy said:

What is it with you, do you just come on here to pick fights? 

Domestic abuse either way is never fully investigated nor intervention made before things escalate. It’s a sad fact that most of the time it’s caused by family or financial pressure and fuelled by drink, there are a few cases of just pure evil b******ds too.

RTB raises a point which I agree with, though his manner is a little questionable, but murder in this country appears to be less of a crime than fraud! Makes you wonder where our legal system priority points!

I don't come to pick fights, I come to bring context where posters do not provide it. It's not what posters say, it's often what they don't say that is more illuminating. So men are six times more likely to be a victim of homicide than women but Jess Phillips doesn't stand up in Parliament and mention this inconvenient truth. Sorry if people find facts offensive. Sorry, not sorry.

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2 hours ago, MooreMarriot said:

The correct comparison would be the number of men killed by women.

I'm sure that would be of great comfort to the 682 men that were murdered last year.

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If the 682 men were murdered by women you may have a point. But as it is you are desperately trying to provoke a row with some snide misogyny. If women don't feel safe walking home, if they have to hide away under some self inflicted curfew then this country has a serious problem and your usual whataboutery isn't going to fix it.

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22 minutes ago, Herman said:

If the 682 men were murdered by women you may have a point. But as it is you are desperately trying to provoke a row with some snide misogyny. If women don't feel safe walking home, if they have to hide away under some self inflicted curfew then this country has a serious problem and your usual whataboutery isn't going to fix it.

Spot on Herman! RTB's egregious record of mysogyny speaks for itself (even against female children). He has never apologised for describing Epstein's child rape victims as "well paid prostitutes". Toxic masculinity (which he has shown many times in his posts) is of course a danger to all, but it is crass beyond belief to think its effects are symetrical across the sexes. The facts are very simple, only one half of our population lives in daily fear that the other half of that population will assault or harass them. I defy any man to claim that he has felt in fear of violent assault from a woman walking behind him at night, I would be suprised to find a single woman who hasn't felt fear of violent assault in the reverse situation.

Any decent man ought to feel appalled by the fact that women's experience of men is universally contaminated by fear. Any decent man ought to be aware that the vast majority of women (probably all) in his personal milieu will have been victims of some form of male aggression, from verbal abuse and harasment to the very worst of crimes.

The only solution to this is for all men to recognise that it is their responsibility to acknowledge the effect of toxic masculinity and educate themselves in a new relationship to women based in equality and respect. It is frankly astonishing that men do not want a world for their wives and daughters that is free from daily fear and abuse. RTB's whataboutery is nothing more than attempt to deflect from the facts of male abuse and violence perpetrated on women. "Ironically", if men were to overcome toxic masculinity in their relation to women, it would undoubtedly have the spin-off of reducing the male-to-male violence that so concerns him.

 

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8 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

I'm sure that would be of great comfort to the 682 men that were murdered last year.

And if most were murdered by men then it's further weight to the initial post about a toxic brand of masculinity, is it not?

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Posted (edited)

It would appear that toxic masculinity extends to all crimes.  In 2018 the prison population of England and Wales was 95% male, and prison does nothing but reinforce it.

 

 

Edited by benchwarmer
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2 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

It would appear that toxic masculinity extends to all crimes.  In 2018 the prison population of England and Wales was 95% male.

 

Expect RTB to tell us, "It's the women who made them do it" anytime soon.

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so out of 33 million women in this country just over 100 were killed?

 

I mean, 100 is still 100 too many, but come on. That's what, less than 0.1 percent of the female population of the UIK

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4 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

so out of 33 million women in this country just over 100 were killed?

 

I mean, 100 is still 100 too many, but come on. That's what, less than 0.1 percent of the female population of the UIK

What if one (just one) was your daughter? Or your sister? Or your mother?

And what if they were not murdered but threatened (let's say emotionally....that they could anticipate what would happen if they did X or Y....) for all the time you'd known them?  Or if they were controlled (let's say financially or physically.....not allowed to buy certain things or leave the house at weekends or go out with friends without getting permission)? 

Blimey, there are loads more examples.

Yet, this is the daily experience of millions CC. I agree not 118 or 0.1%.....but millions!

 

 

 

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Have you heard "A Stitch in Time" sung by Christy Moore?  It's about a man who drinks and beats his wife and how she teaches him a lesson.  Very earthy, marvellous stuff.  You can find it on YouTube.

 

 

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Prison is no deterrent for murderers, read the Jeffrey Archer prison diaries

Recollect something like 80 plus killers in the open prison where he was. Regular visits to the local town taking booze etc back

Own room with all amenities  

 

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1 minute ago, benchwarmer said:

Have you heard "A Stitch in Time" sung by Christy Moore?  It's about a man who drinks and beats his wife and how she teaches him a lesson.  Very earthy, marvellous stuff.  You can find it on YouTube.

 

 

Read the Burning Bed for a woman scorned 

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13 hours ago, MooreMarriot said:

The correct comparison would be the number of men killed by women.

No, it really wouldn’t.  It’s about safety on the streets.

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47 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

so out of 33 million women in this country just over 100 were killed?

I mean, 100 is still 100 too many, but come on. That's what, less than 0.1 percent of the female population of the UIK

That's 100 women who are someone's daughter. Do you have the emotional range of a teaspoon?

The title of this thread is "Male Violence". RTB has correctly pointed out that more men are killed in this country than women, but has accidentally supported the main argument, that men are the issue, whether it's men killing men, men killing women or men killing themselves. As a gender we need to address toxic masculinity whether it's stopping men from seeking support when they feel low, from participating in violence to assert their dominance over other men, ot attempting to assert male dominance over women in the form of sexual assault or rape. These men only take other men seriously., so the 99% of us that aren't violent and respect women have to take more responsibility to call out this toxic behaviour, change the behaviours and deal with with the causes.

I have a 14-month-old daughter and the thought of her growing up in this society scares me to death. It's about time women had their voices heard and more importantly, men listened.

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What I find galling is the inevitable jumping on the bandwagon of the tragic death of Sarah Everard by left-wing misandrists despite the fact that men are far more likely to be killed than women.

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Facts and data are meaningless.

More men are murdered by their spouses than the other way round.

But of course, as we know, many women kill their husbands because they have suffered years of abuse.

So the fact doesn't reveal the reason.

I am totally at odds with all the major discussions at the moment. 

There is plenty of talk, plenty of blame but I haven't heard one solution to ending racism, domestic violence, homophobia, mysogyny.

Probably because there isn't one.

If I was to say I am not racist, homophobic, mysogynistic or ever used domestic violence someone will no doubt say I'm virtue signalling. And then another argument starts without a solution.

We have to realise that sometimes in life, there is no apparent reason for things, so no solution.

There are hateful, nasty, spiteful, violent people in this world who will no more listen to or respect the view of the majority.

Stop looking for reasons why they are like it. Stop looking to label things.

Punishment is obviously not something these people consider. Reason certainly isn't.

But in this latest case, stop labelling men as the ones to sort it out. What the hell can I do to stop it? I do behave myself and have respect for everyone especially women.

Also, do not label women based on their clothing, appearance, attitude or demeanour. But also don't do the same to anyone else. (You are allowed a fleeting moment of guilt if you see someone in an Ipswich shirt).

People have been trying to analyse football violence for over 50 years. And one partial reason it stopped in grounds was all seater stadia. Didn't need behavioural scientists.

 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

What I find galling is the inevitable jumping on the bandwagon of the tragic death of Sarah Everard by left-wing misandrists despite the fact that men are far more likely to be killed than women.

Men are killed for many reasons, but simply for being a man is not one of them.  Gay men are killed because they are gay, not because they are men.  Women are killed by men because they are women.  

Safety on the streets is an issue for everyone, but women subject to domestic violence are at greatest risk in their own homes.  That's where most women are killed by men; Sarah Everard's case is high profile but not at all typical. 

I tend to agree by the way about bandwagon-jumping, but you're missing the point.

 

Edited by benchwarmer

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11 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

But in this latest case, stop labelling men as the ones to sort it out. What the hell can I do to stop it? I do behave myself and have respect for everyone especially women.

I asked my wife the same question, she advised that we need to be calling out behaviours and attitudes that contribute to the objectification of women, which are known to lead to some men feeling justified in their actions of harassment, sexual assault and, in worse cases, rape. It isn't enough to say "I'm not one of the bad ones", we need to be actively working against those that are. 

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2 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I asked my wife the same question, she advised that we need to be calling out behaviours and attitudes that contribute to the objectification of women, which are known to lead to some men feeling justified in their actions of harassment, sexual assault and, in worse cases, rape. It isn't enough to say "I'm not one of the bad ones", we need to be actively working against those that are. 

I accept that CW but I don't know any of these people. So how do I call them out? What is actively working against? Has your wife said exactly what any action entails?

And will the same be true of the countless women we have seen in the KKK, Robinson's crew and Trump supporters. 

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