Male Violence

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

I was just trying to summarise generic british psyche. Keep clutching at straws though as I brutally define your life and politics. 
 

individualism vs collectivism is all it’s ever been, just different brands. The fact that some on here prefer collectivism is absolute no shock to me at all.

Well you were way off in your summation.

So lets have one person singing OTBC and another singing Come on you yellows because collectivism is not in our psyche? The football chant is one dramatic example of how collective humans are.

You are taking to your belief in being an individual to the length of isolation. 

 

[The Real Buh 3,423]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Well you were way off in your summation.

So lets have one person singing OTBC and another singing Come on you yellows because collectivism is not in our psyche? The football chant is one dramatic example of how collective humans are.

You are taking to your belief in being an individual to the length of isolation. 

 

Community is different to collectivism, genius.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Just now, The Real Buh said:

Community is different to collectivism, genius.

Only in your world. Which I guess is lonely.

[The Real Buh 3,423]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

Only in your world. Which I guess is lonely.

I’d rather be lonely than indulge in the same politics that lead to the Holocaust or millions dying under communism.

doesn’t bother you though, does it?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

I’d rather be lonely than indulge in the same politics that lead to the Holocaust or millions dying under communism.

doesn’t bother you though, does it?

As a part Jew, the Holocaust, which has nothing to do with the debate, is very close to me in my heart. My family escaped Russia, before the Revolution, because of the pogrums. 

So your loneliness is narrowing your thoughts so much that you really believe that if you think or say it, it must be right.

[The Real Buh 3,423]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

As a part Jew, the Holocaust, which has nothing to do with the debate, is very close to me in my heart. My family escaped Russia, before the Revolution, because of the pogrums. 

So your loneliness is narrowing your thoughts so much that you really believe that if you think or say it, it must be right.

Yet you indulge in the politics of collectivism. You don’t see the contradiction?

you are never lonely when you surround yourself with strong individuals. Free thinkers. Not surrounded by empty headed collectivists with nothing to add just endless hatred.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

7 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Yet you indulge in the politics of collectivism. You don’t see the contradiction?

you are never lonely when you surround yourself with strong individuals. Free thinkers. Not surrounded by empty headed collectivists with nothing to add just endless hatred.

So you don't believe in Education?

[The Real Buh 3,423]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

So you don't believe in Education?

Um... yes? What?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Um... yes? What?

How can you retain your individuality at School,  and particularly, further education?

[The Real Buh 3,423]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

How can you retain your individuality at School,  and particularly, further education?

By learning widely? not accepting an individual point of view? Why is so hard to just think freely rather than on the narrow rails of a one sided opinion. Is it worth the “protection” that’s afforded to “towing the line” of collectivism “look, look!! I’m being a good communist!”

Edited March 12, 2021 by The Real Buh

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Just now, The Real Buh said:

By learning widely? not accepting an individual point of view? Why is so hard to just think freely rather than on the narrow rails of a one sided opinion. Is it worth the “protection” that’s afforded to “towing the line” of collectivism “look, look!! I’m being a good communist!”

Your infatuation with Communism intrigues me. Its a concept, an ideology that has merit in thought but no hope in practice. And I don't think there has ever been a real Communist state but rather more dystopian.

[The Real Buh 3,423]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

Your infatuation with Communism intrigues me. Its a concept, an ideology that has merit in thought but no hope in practice. And I don't think there has ever been a real Communist state but rather more dystopian.

Your transparent attempt at distancing yourself from communist ideology was a failure. That you can say it has “merit” is sick. Tell that to those who have starved to death and are starving to death because of it to this day.

”real communism has never been tried” have a word with yourself, filthy communist.

[Herman 9,713]

Why do the far right always indulge in this sort of distraction? Do they not like women?

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

Just now, Herman said:

Why do the far right always indulge in this sort of distraction? Do they not like women?

Only very subservient women.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Your transparent attempt at distancing yourself from communist ideology was a failure. That you can say it has “merit” is sick. Tell that to those who have starved to death and are starving to death because of it to this day.

”real communism has never been tried” have a word with yourself, filthy communist.

I thought we were getting along for a while but now I see with your silly remarks that your isolation isn't out of choice. Goodnight.

[The Real Buh 3,423]

14 minutes ago, Herman said:

Why do the far right always indulge in this sort of distraction? Do they not like women?

You are demonstrably a far left maniac. Your words about me have no weight. Especially when you have selective quoting. Absolute whopper.

Edited March 12, 2021 by The Real Buh

[The Real Buh 3,423]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I thought we were getting along for a while but now I see with your silly remarks that your isolation isn't out of choice. Goodnight.

Goodnight comrade 

[Orly 277]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Again, there's nothing re. collectivism in there. Personal responsibility, by its very nature, is very much the polar opposite. And "too many" men still seems better than "not all men".

Maybe those who are triggered by this are among the "too many"?

Even if the comment was tongue in cheek, how is calling for a curfew for ALL MEN not collectivist?  It's possible I've misinterpreted your point perhaps?

My standard take on this is:

If it was a different crime committed by 'x' (gender, race, sexuality, e.g. black, female, gay), would it be fair to say that "x" people need to take responsibility for the behaviours of other members of the 'x' identity group?

Of course not.

 

[Orly 277]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

Community is different to collectivism, genius.

You get rid of the unnecessary insult at the end, and I agree.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

10 hours ago, Orly said:

Even if the comment was tongue in cheek, how is calling for a curfew for ALL MEN not collectivist?  It's possible I've misinterpreted your point perhaps?

My standard take on this is:

If it was a different crime committed by 'x' (gender, race, sexuality, e.g. black, female, gay), would it be fair to say that "x" people need to take responsibility for the behaviours of other members of the 'x' identity group?

Of course not.

 

The curfew comment made by the politician in question was tongue-in-cheek and made to highlight the point Bill made in this thread, namely when a spate of attacks take place on women, women are told to stay indoors, so yes, I think you did misunderstand it.

The point is that speaking about toxic masculinity is about getting us to have a look at behavioural patterns. By its nature, such an action is as individual as it gets.

[Orly 277]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

The curfew comment made by the politician in question was tongue-in-cheek and made to highlight the point Bill made in this thread, namely when a spate of attacks take place on women, women are told to stay indoors, so yes, I think you did misunderstand it.

The point is that speaking about toxic masculinity is about getting us to have a look at behavioural patterns. By its nature, such an action is as individual as it gets.

You're welcome to view it that way.  I disagree entirely.  I think the idea that toxic masculinity is prevalent in our society - much like racism - is utter horsesh1t and extremely harmful to everybody, women included.

There are some mental gymnastics going on here though.  Are you still trying to maintain that there is not a group identity issue here?  This seems disingenuous.

Just because you say we are to 'individually' look at behavioural patterns, but are being requested to do it en masse as a gender (men).

It's the same as asking all Ladies to look at their individual behavioural patterns because a lady made a false rape claim and ruined someone's life.  It's ludicrous.

Besides which, if I/you WERE a hypothetical individual who thought and acted problematically (because these types of movements love that word) regarding equality, do you honestly think that they would change their behaviours one iota by a period of quiet self-directed reflection?  Again, of course not.

In short, you're welcome to say whatever you like but if you insist that I, as a man, contribute, support or condone the mistreatment of ANYONE, I'm perfectly within my rights (whilst they still exist) of telling anybody that says so that they can stick their post-modern **** up their **** (not specifically referring to you - to be clear).

 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

14 minutes ago, Orly said:

You're welcome to view it that way.  I disagree entirely.  I think the idea that toxic masculinity is prevalent in our society - much like racism - is utter horsesh1t and extremely harmful to everybody, women included.

There are some mental gymnastics going on here though.  Are you still trying to maintain that there is not a group identity issue here?  This seems disingenuous.

Just because you say we are to 'individually' look at behavioural patterns, but are being requested to do it en masse as a gender (men).

It's the same as asking all Ladies to look at their individual behavioural patterns because a lady made a false rape claim and ruined someone's life.  It's ludicrous.

Besides which, if I/you WERE a hypothetical individual who thought and acted problematically (because these types of movements love that word) regarding equality, do you honestly think that they would change their behaviours one iota by a period of quiet self-directed reflection?  Again, of course not.

In short, you're welcome to say whatever you like but if you insist that I, as a man, contribute, support or condone the mistreatment of ANYONE, I'm perfectly within my rights (whilst they still exist) of telling anybody that says so that they can stick their post-modern **** up their **** (not specifically referring to you - to be clear).

 

 

Then there can't be agreement, as we are clearly diametrically opposed.

However, the notion remains the same. If the cap fits, wear it.

[Orly 277]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Then there can't be agreement, as we are clearly diametrically opposed.

However, the notion remains the same. If the cap fits, wear it.

Fair enough.  I'm bewildered how evidently entirely pleasant people are consumed by this borderline-religion but wish you all the best regardless.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

12 minutes ago, Orly said:

Fair enough.  I'm bewildered how evidently entirely pleasant people are consumed by this borderline-religion but wish you all the best regardless.

To be fair, anything can be pickled into something that certain quarters call dogmatic. If I have a personal hobby horse, it's the ongoing stigmatisation of the single and childfree. And there are plenty who follow tradition as a borderline religion in their own right without properly checking if modern circumstances are best served by traditional approaches.

[Orly 277]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

To be fair, anything can be pickled into something that certain quarters call dogmatic. If I have a personal hobby horse, it's the ongoing stigmatisation of the single and childfree. And there are plenty who follow tradition as a borderline religion in their own right without properly checking if modern circumstances are best served by traditional approaches.

And it would be fair to say that my hobby horse (or at least current one - there's about 70 metaphorically up in the attic) is this corrupted form of marxism using this perceived-social-power-based-identity politics, where people are defined by their group characteristic, rather than the content of their character.  

I'm sure you know the famous Dr Martin Luther King quote.

Ah well, these are our crosses to bear, so I best get on bearing it! 

Here's to 3 points tomorrow! 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

4 minutes ago, Orly said:

And it would be fair to say that my hobby horse (or at least current one - there's about 70 metaphorically up in the attic) is this corrupted form of marxism using this perceived-social-power-based-identity politics, where people are defined by their group characteristic, rather than the content of their character.  

I'm sure you know the famous Dr Martin Luther King quote.

Ah well, these are our crosses to bear, so I best get on bearing it! 

Here's to 3 points tomorrow! 

 

I prefer setting crosses on fire and using them as fuel to keep warm rather than bear the ****s, lol. Here's to three points tomorrow and finishing this season off in style.

[horsefly 4,287]

16 minutes ago, Orly said:

You're welcome to view it that way.  I disagree entirely.  I think the idea that toxic masculinity is prevalent in our society - much like racism - is utter horsesh1t and extremely harmful to everybody, women included.

I'm sorry but I think you are completely missing the point here. No-one has said that all males behave in this fashion, the point is that there is a conception of masculinity (yes, toxic masculinity) that explains phenomena that you seem to want to ignore. Why is it that 90% of murders are caused by males? Why is it that sexual assaults are almost exclusive perpetrated by males? Why is it that over 90% of domestic violence is perpetrated by men? I could go on with the statistics but it really shouldn't be the case that anyone is unaware of the blindingly obvious. Sadly they show that women have good reason to be fearful of men but men have no reason to be fearful of women. Thousands upon thousands of women each year are victims of male aggression whereas female aggression upon males is extremely rare. The fact that young males are more likely to be violently assaulted on the streets by males than women are only confirms that there is a problem with toxic masculinity. 

Why not simply listen to what women are saying about their daily experiences of abuse and harassment from men, and their fear of violent assault from men. To ask men to reflect on their experience and practice of masculinity is not some sort of bizarre communist plot (as some seem to be ridiculously suggesting). It is simply to say to them that women in our society are sick and tired of ingrained male attitudes that make their lives miserable, and that with a bit of critical reflection we might just be able to live out a masculine life that enhances the relationship between men and women. Frankly I long for the day when I don't feel the need to cross the road if I find myself walking behind a woman at night because I know she is very likely to be feeling fear of the man walking behind her. Sadly from some of the views expressed on here I fear that day is not going to come along soon. I'm sure you are a decent man who would not dream of committing the sort of abuse against women that is prevalent. All I'm suggesting is that rather than dismiss a concept like toxic masculinity, you take a a good look at the statistics on male abuse of woman, listen to women's experiences, and recognise that there is a real problem here that needs addressing. Surely we can at least all agree that things could be an awful lot better than they are.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

23 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I'm sorry but I think you are completely missing the point here. No-one has said that all males behave in this fashion, the point is that there is a conception of masculinity (yes, toxic masculinity) that explains phenomena that you seem to want to ignore. Why is it that 90% of murders are caused by males? Why is it that sexual assaults are almost exclusive perpetrated by males? Why is it that over 90% of domestic violence is perpetrated by men? I could go on with the statistics but it really shouldn't be the case that anyone is unaware of the blindingly obvious. Sadly they show that women have good reason to be fearful of men but men have no reason to be fearful of women. Thousands upon thousands of women each year are victims of male aggression whereas female aggression upon males is extremely rare. The fact that young males are more likely to be violently assaulted on the streets by males than women are only confirms that there is a problem with toxic masculinity. 

Why not simply listen to what women are saying about their daily experiences of abuse and harassment from men, and their fear of violent assault from men. To ask men to reflect on their experience and practice of masculinity is not some sort of bizarre communist plot (as some seem to be ridiculously suggesting). It is simply to say to them that women in our society are sick and tired of ingrained male attitudes that make their lives miserable, and that with a bit of critical reflection we might just be able to live out a masculine life that enhances the relationship between men and women. Frankly I long for the day when I don't feel the need to cross the road if I find myself walking behind a woman at night because I know she is very likely to be feeling fear of the man walking behind her. Sadly from some of the views expressed on here I fear that day is not going to come along soon. I'm sure you are a decent man who would not dream of committing the sort of abuse against women that is prevalent. All I'm suggesting is that rather than dismiss a concept like toxic masculinity, you take a a good look at the statistics on male abuse of woman, listen to women's experiences, and recognise that there is a real problem here that needs addressing. Surely we can at least all agree that things could be an awful lot better than they are.

Not only that, men are far more likely to commit suicide or not look for help if suffering from mental health issues. Boys are less likely to do well at school compared to girls. All of these are linked to cultural aspects that in olden days were seen as part of being a boy/man but are not holding up in the modern era.

Interestingly, there seems to be a recent trend on FB for people - mainly men - to admit they're depressed or have faced it in the past. I couldn't applaud this any more. This notion that men have to "suck it up because they're men" is no good for anyone, whether men or women.

A different topic entirely, but another taboo that's needed roasting for decades, namely parents openly admitting they regret having their children also seems to be gaining momentum. Totally agreeing with that development as well.

[dylanisabaddog 4,868]

39 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I'm sorry but I think you are completely missing the point here. No-one has said that all males behave in this fashion, the point is that there is a conception of masculinity (yes, toxic masculinity) that explains phenomena that you seem to want to ignore. Why is it that 90% of murders are caused by males? Why is it that sexual assaults are almost exclusive perpetrated by males? Why is it that over 90% of domestic violence is perpetrated by men? I could go on with the statistics but it really shouldn't be the case that anyone is unaware of the blindingly obvious. Sadly they show that women have good reason to be fearful of men but men have no reason to be fearful of women. Thousands upon thousands of women each year are victims of male aggression whereas female aggression upon males is extremely rare. The fact that young males are more likely to be violently assaulted on the streets by males than women are only confirms that there is a problem with toxic masculinity. 

Why not simply listen to what women are saying about their daily experiences of abuse and harassment from men, and their fear of violent assault from men. To ask men to reflect on their experience and practice of masculinity is not some sort of bizarre communist plot (as some seem to be ridiculously suggesting). It is simply to say to them that women in our society are sick and tired of ingrained male attitudes that make their lives miserable, and that with a bit of critical reflection we might just be able to live out a masculine life that enhances the relationship between men and women. Frankly I long for the day when I don't feel the need to cross the road if I find myself walking behind a woman at night because I know she is very likely to be feeling fear of the man walking behind her. Sadly from some of the views expressed on here I fear that day is not going to come along soon. I'm sure you are a decent man who would not dream of committing the sort of abuse against women that is prevalent. All I'm suggesting is that rather than dismiss a concept like toxic masculinity, you take a a good look at the statistics on male abuse of woman, listen to women's experiences, and recognise that there is a real problem here that needs addressing. Surely we can at least all agree that things could be an awful lot better than they are.

You've made some very sweeping comments there. Female violence against males is not extremely rare and in fact is probably the most under reported of all crimes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_men

Having once experienced a drunk woman come at me with a knife because I hadn't cut the grass I can assure you that women can be very frightening people. When I made a complaint to the police I was asked what I'd done to provoke her  I told the two police officers it was because I hadn't cut the grass. The female officer laughed. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by dylanisabaddog

[horsefly 4,287]

22 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

You've made some very sweeping comments there.

Interestingly the issue you have singled out here concerns domestic violence. What do you think is the likelihood of a man being attacked by a woman outside of the domestic sphere?

And the report you cite actually says that the most under reported crime is domestic violence perpetrated by males on females. I'm sure a drunk person attacking you with a knife would be frightening whatever the sex of the assailant, but what do you think the facts show about the likelihood of that assailant being a male or female?

Edited March 13, 2021 by horsefly