Male Violence

[Barbe bleu 826]

4 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Different topic, but it's telling that education has been extremely successful in liberating women (birth rates worldwide have fallen as women have had greater access to education), drink-driving has become far more stigmatised rather than when it was apparently considered more acceptable to potter off in the car after a few sherbets, and teenage pregnancies have fallen by some way.

You'll always get cross-grained sorts, but you've got to teach them early and well.

Yes, but drink driving, and unwillingness/inability to access to contraception are not evolutionary traits.   And do we know its 'education' alone that stops drinking driving or is there a fear of consequence in there too?

We should also recognise also that for every 'drink driving has reduced' argument there is a counter along the lines of '50 years of environmentalism and green education hasn't stopped us from ****ing up the planet'.    

How many years of education will it take to undo millions of years of evolution? Why do we think that telling people not to do what they already know is evil will stop them?

I fully understand the argument that micro aggressions (to borrow another potentially unhelful term) can build up to bigger harms.  But I refuse to believe the natural conclusion of this argument which is that murder can be committed in an absence of mind.

I have no problem with education, I am sure that it can do dome good and have no doubt that empathy is a characteristic we should look to build in all citizens. but by making a lazy call for education and discounting other approaches 'because that's what the tories would do' could serve, if we are not careful, to perpetuate or increase the very things we seek to eliminate.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Barbe bleu

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

6 hours ago, Herman said:

This is a fair piece and the basics of what is trying to be explained.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/sean-moncrieff-of-course-most-men-are-not-rapists-why-does-this-need-to-be-said-1.4511921#.YFWl3LIj_T4.twitter

Sean Moncrieff has a regular  show on newstalk.ie at around 2pm mon - Friday......a very interesting, humorous, informed take on affairs in general...well worth  a listen.

Podcasts etc available on newstalk.ie 

Edited March 20, 2021 by wcorkcanary

[Herman 9,764]

Irish journalists have been a highlight these last few years. If you want to find the genuine facts about certain political stories they are a go to. 👍

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

56 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Yes, but drink driving, and unwillingness/inability to access to contraception are not evolutionary traits.   And do we know its 'education' alone that stops drinking driving or is there a fear of consequence in there too?

We should also recognise also that for every 'drink driving has reduced' argument there is a counter along the lines of '50 years of environmentalism and green education hasn't stopped us from ****ing up the planet'.    

How many years of education will it take to undo millions of years of evolution? Why do we think that telling people not to do what they already know is evil will stop them?

I fully understand the argument that micro aggressions (to borrow another potentially unhelful term) can build up to bigger harms.  But I refuse to believe the natural conclusion of this argument which is that murder can be committed in an absence of mind.

I have no problem with education, I am sure that it can do dome good and have no doubt that empathy is a characteristic we should look to build in all citizens. but by making a lazy call for education and discounting other approaches 'because that's what the tories would do' could serve, if we are not careful, to perpetuate or increase the very things we seek to eliminate.

I wouldn't say there's been that much green education, but your bigger problem there is a population boom of the last 50 years and the advance in technology. As David Attenborough amongst others correctly notes, environmental problems are easier to solve with fewer people, and harder to solve when there are more of us. Can have all the education you like, can have all the environmental measures you like, but the harsh cold fact is that there are too bloody many of us. 

Making people aware of how old structures no longer fit can only ever be part of the solution, and no-one's said it'll be a panacea either.

 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

10 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Different topic, but it's telling that education has been extremely successful in liberating women (birth rates worldwide have fallen as women have had greater access to education), drink-driving has become far more stigmatised rather than when it was apparently considered more acceptable to potter off in the car after a few sherbets, and teenage pregnancies have fallen by some way.

You'll always get cross-grained sorts, but you've got to teach them early and well.

Education is not the root cause, however. Economic growth is the root cause of the liberation of women throughout the world. Economic growth takes people out of poverty and makes thing like clean water, shelter, education and health care more accessible to a greater number of people. Economic growth has some interesting spin-offs, too. As GDP per head rises in a country over time, so issues such as the environment become important to communities. Birth rates also fall over time as GDP increases and many of the problems associated with large families disappear. This why we have to resist groups like the comfortably-off middle-classes of Extinction Rebellion who are committed to reducing global economic growth, as they will surely condemn developing countries to poverty and sickness if we listen them.

[horsefly 4,300]

It is extraordinarily naive to claim economic growth leads to women being treated equally. The reality is that in all of the most wealthy countries of the world  women remain disadvantaged and abused. Wealth remains in the hands of men unless political action is taken to distribute the wealth equally. Even where the wealth is distributed more equally women remain victims of vast levels of abuse by men. Over 50,000 rapes were reported to the police in the last year, and that figure is considered by experts to be about a tenth of the number of actual sexual assaults (most going unreported).

I don't think for one minute that economics had anything to do with this off-duty policeman's dreadful assault on this unfortunate woman: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/police-officer-who-attacked-woman-in-street-spared-jail-and-fined-500/ar-BB1eLNhu?ocid=msedgntp

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

9 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Education is not the root cause, however. Economic growth is the root cause of the liberation of women throughout the world. Economic growth takes people out of poverty and makes thing like clean water, shelter, education and health care more accessible to a greater number of people. Economic growth has some interesting spin-offs, too. As GDP per head rises in a country over time, so issues such as the environment become important to communities. Birth rates also fall over time as GDP increases and many of the problems associated with large families disappear. This why we have to resist groups like the comfortably-off middle-classes of Extinction Rebellion who are committed to reducing global economic growth, as they will surely condemn developing countries to poverty and sickness if we listen them.

Hmm, chicken or egg scenario. Education often continues economic growth or stability - and there were economically liberated women even in medieval times and the word used for them remains to this day as - stupidly - a pejorative. That word is "spinster". They were women who were self-employed spinners and were actually economically active, earning their own money and generally being independent.

Many problems associated with large families disappear, to be replaced by consumption problems from smaller groups. Ultimately, all First World countries massively overshoot carrying capacity. If everyone in the world lived like Americans, we'd need five planet Earths. If everyone in the world lived like Brits, we'd need nearly three.

However, that's an intriguing digression from the planned topic, which is male violence.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

6 hours ago, horsefly said:

It is extraordinarily naive to claim economic growth leads to women being treated equally. The reality is that in all of the most wealthy countries of the world  women remain disadvantaged and abused. Wealth remains in the hands of men unless political action is taken to distribute the wealth equally. Even where the wealth is distributed more equally women remain victims of vast levels of abuse by men. Over 50,000 rapes were reported to the police in the last year, and that figure is considered by experts to be about a tenth of the number of actual sexual assaults (most going unreported).

I don't think for one minute that economics had anything to do with this off-duty policeman's dreadful assault on this unfortunate woman: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/police-officer-who-attacked-woman-in-street-spared-jail-and-fined-500/ar-BB1eLNhu?ocid=msedgntp

Incredibly dumb to compare the level of suffering of women in countries of poverty with the level of suffering of women in rich countries. You simply don't have a clue. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Hmm, chicken or egg scenario. Education often continues economic growth or stability - and there were economically liberated women even in medieval times and the word used for them remains to this day as - stupidly - a pejorative. That word is "spinster". They were women who were self-employed spinners and were actually economically active, earning their own money and generally being independent.

Many problems associated with large families disappear, to be replaced by consumption problems from smaller groups. Ultimately, all First World countries massively overshoot carrying capacity. If everyone in the world lived like Americans, we'd need five planet Earths. If everyone in the world lived like Brits, we'd need nearly three.

However, that's an intriguing digression from the planned topic, which is male violence.

If you extrapolated the resource usage of the West onto the current population levels of the non-West then you are correct. But the nice thing about economic growth is that it reduces family size and hence population growth. In the UK if it were not for immigration and birth rates of first generation immigrants we would actually have a falling population rate. 

But as you say, a diversion from the main topic. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

29 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

If you extrapolated the resource usage of the West onto the current population levels of the non-West then you are correct. But the nice thing about economic growth is that it reduces family size and hence population growth. In the UK if it were not for immigration and birth rates of first generation immigrants we would actually have a falling population rate. 

But as you say, a diversion from the main topic. 

That is the point though in as much as this is very much a diversionary, tangential topic - if you want those countries to reach the economic standards we have, then such consumption is indubitably part of it. It's a very inconvenient truth that First World countries basically overconsume.

Carrying capacity of a country is a notoriously difficult beast to calculate and a lot appear to focus merely on space and food, but the UK appears to be running some way past it.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

19 hours ago, Herman said:

Irish journalists have been a highlight these last few years. If you want to find the genuine facts about certain political stories they are a go to. 👍

Saw an interesting piece the other day, covered the Nwanko Kanu football school hooking up with MTK(ex MGM) sports.... the shadowy, criminally funded boxing management firm.....run from the offside by Daniel Kinehan , son of  Christy  'the dapper don' kinehan. They are top level irish criminals, not untouchable but both keep themselves distanced from the hands on criminality.

I wonder if Kanu knows what he's getting himself into...... he should have a chat with Barry Mcquiggen.

https://mtkglobal.com/category/mtk-football/

https://www.thesun.ie/news/6723555/firm-linked-daniel-kinahan-joins-forces-football-academy/

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000ry0d&ved=2ahUKEwiq_fns2MHvAhWLWhUIHVfKDxcQFjAAegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw2Vfyemwcej0tNRfU9cbYA9

If anyone can be bothered, Christy Kinehan is an interesting man, he elected to stay in prison after his early release date.....to complete a degree course. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christy_Kinahan

Edited March 21, 2021 by wcorkcanary