Criticism of referees

[BroadstairsR 2,164]

There are fines, there are conventions, there is self-discipline but surelyn Nuno Espiroto Santos ignored all those last night in his criticism of the ref. 

He went a long way. "Not fit to officiate a Premier League match."

It's (reffing) a tough job requiring the thickest of skins. Some revel in the limelight and are ego driven. They are always more or less protected by protocol. They are not forced to do it. It now pays very well.

Did the Wolves manager go too far? He will be fined. I do not recall an official ever disparaging an official so much. Is it about time a manager expressed his frustration so fiercely?

Nobody wants a free for all in this respect, but I cannot help but feel that Alex Neil should have been equally vociferous about the notorious Simon Hooper's performance a few years ago which bordered on the bias and, imo, eventually led to our relegation. There will be  many other examples, but that pertains to our club.

That game remains a thorn in my flesh.

We don't even need to venture into the inadequacies of VAR and it's atrocious use of technology. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by BroadstairsR

[Red Rufus 56]

You make some very good points, I have a real life experience of a referee rising up through the system because he was politically correct, kissed the right backsides within the relevant authorities, attended the evening training sessions at the UEA, helping you get, less experienced refs, etc, etc. He ended up reffing semi pro football. He reffed me a few times and the fact was he wasn't very good but ticked all the other boxes some of which I mentioned above. He was also very keen, he made a few quid from it as well. With the shortage of refs their is pressure on the authorities to encourage and retain anyone who is interested, so from a smaller pool to start with it is normal that the levels will deteriorate.  I think he is correct to criticise as the standards are falling.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

I didn’t watch the Wolves game, was the officiating really that bad?

[pearsos 56]

It does beg the question.

Why did the authorities introduce VAR?

Was it :- 

(a) They felt their referees (and assistants) weren’t up to scratch, or 

(b) They wanted to give them a bit of help.

we all know what their official response would be but what is the real truth?

 

 

 

 

[king canary 7,606]

I'd argue one of the reasons the standard of reffing isn't great is because they get so much stick from the very off.

A friend of the family used to ref when he was 17/18, mainly youth stuff and quit after a year because he couldn't take the constant abuse. There are plenty of people who would probably make very good referees if they weren't driven out of the game by morons in Sunday League who think its OK to call someone a **** for giving the other team a freekick. Weirdly enough not many people will volunteer to give up their weekends to be routinely abused for fulfilling an essential role, so you end up with the egomaniacs and jobsworths who actually do make it.

[Naturalcynic 631]

Football is played according to a system of rules.  Referees make split second decisions using their best judgment to try to ensure matches are played in accordance with those rules.  Decisions can be contentious and they will sometimes make mistakes.  However, constant criticism from managers, together with hostility and abuse from players, merely undermines their position of authority and degrades the game.  Much as I don’t really “get” rugby, I do like the way players respect the referee and accept the decisions that are made.

[king canary 7,606]

6 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Football is played according to a system of rules.  Referees make split second decisions using their best judgment to try to ensure matches are played in accordance with those rules.  Decisions can be contentious and they will sometimes make mistakes.  However, constant criticism from managers, together with hostility and abuse from players, merely undermines their position of authority and degrades the game.  Much as I don’t really “get” rugby, I do like the way players respect the referee and accept the decisions that are made.

I would also add football referees have to put up with players constantly trying to con them in almost every decision, big or small. You'll see players commit blatant fouls but claim with a straight face that they got the ball, claim a throw in came off their opponent when they know it didn't and even try and move every set piece a yard or two around in order to get a better position. 

[Naturalcynic 631]

7 minutes ago, king canary said:

I would also add football referees have to put up with players constantly trying to con them in almost every decision, big or small. You'll see players commit blatant fouls but claim with a straight face that they got the ball, claim a throw in came off their opponent when they know it didn't and even try and move every set piece a yard or two around in order to get a better position. 

Absolutely correct.  Frustrating in the extreme to see players claiming it’s their throw etc when it’s blatantly clear to everyone that they, and they alone, got the last touch.

[king canary 7,606]

7 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Absolutely correct.  Frustrating in the extreme to see players claiming it’s their throw etc when it’s blatantly clear to everyone that they, and they alone, got the last touch.

It unfortunately seems to be so baked into football culture at this point that is almost instinctual. 

[Crafty Canary 495]

27 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Football is played according to a system of rules.  Referees make split second decisions using their best judgment to try to ensure matches are played in accordance with those rules.  Decisions can be contentious and they will sometimes make mistakes.  However, constant criticism from managers, together with hostility and abuse from players, merely undermines their position of authority and degrades the game.  Much as I don’t really “get” rugby, I do like the way players respect the referee and accept the decisions that are made.

Given the level of serious physical contact in rugby it is vital the the referee’s word is sacrosanct. Coaches drill their players from the youngsters upwards to accept the referee’s decisions without question. At every level up to the top levels of the game players routinely refer to the referee as ‘sir’. The players know that any of the questioning of decisions or abuse of the referee may result in serious sanctions. 
Rugby also scores over football in the behaviour of fans of both sides. I have never been in a clubhouse as an away member without being made to feel very welcome . Something else football can learn from.

[Mr Angry 1,561]

Nuno’s criticism was partly that Mason doesn’t let the game flow but he’s given less fouls than the average this season-although last night he gave more than the average. Just another manager mouthing off about a one-off performance from a referee-fine him and move on.

[Mark .Y. 352]

2 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I didn’t watch the Wolves game, was the officiating really that bad?

I watched the second half as my son-in-law is a Wolves fan. I didn't notice that much to be honest, have seen many worse refereeing performances. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

2 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

Absolutely correct.  Frustrating in the extreme to see players claiming it’s their throw etc when it’s blatantly clear to everyone that they, and they alone, got the last touch.

The clubs teach them to do that and probably for good reason. There is clear psychology behind it. 

Someone above has mentioned Rugby as a good example but they are even worse. A huge percentage of points are scored due to penalties which are effectively awarded for cheating. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Before I go further, I'll note that I was a referee at junior level for ten years and got as far as county honours, refereeing the Lancashire FA Cup final at U14s level before jacking it in due to a litany of ankle injuries in 2005, so as you can imagine, I have a bit of a vested interest.

Usually, this kind of comment such as from Nuno is pseudo-factual and merely mind-games in the hope that when Mason gets them again, he gives them the rub of the green. The standard of refereeing is not really much of a problem. People don't realise that at Premiership level, they're assessed after every single game so there's no shortage of focus or reviewing involved, or indeed accountability. 

The following things here are far much more a part of the problem:

1. Every single decision can be seen from many more different angles nowadays (and let's face it, we still have offside arguments even with VAR).
2. Money involved in the game, so players will bend the rules more. Hence, amongst other things, all the simulation you see.
3. Basically, fair play at the top levels of the game is practically out of the question unless it's absolutely egregious.

Most importantly, is this one.

4. The speed of the game. I can't remember the exact study, but essentially, our eyes work as follows: they do not record a continuous video, they merely collate a hell of a lot of images together and any "filling in" is basically brain processing filling in the gaps, not actual sight of what is happening. Considering how fast the game is now, it only needs the slightest touch to send players flying or to be in/out of play, and then you should be able to imagine easily why offsides - even those that seem relatively blatant - can be missed by an assistant even when looking directly at the action.

Referees are fit and professional people at that level, but they're essentially managing failure from the start.

Edited December 22, 2020 by TheGunnShow

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I watched the game and didn't notice anything untoward.

But many times, posters have worried about a particular referee officiating our games, presumably because of something previous.

I thought our referee on Saturday was awful for the first twenty minutes but then he settled down.

I do think while the standard overall of refereeing has gone down, I also think the behaviour of players is terrible.

Managers speak after a game, maybe its time for referees to do so.

[sgncfc 1,227]

The best referee I ever had when playing was a chap who used to gather both teams together beforehand and tell us exactly what he was going to do. Using any of 3 specific swear words was a caution; a second use was a sending off; questioning a decision was a caution, raising your hands was a sending off etc. In return, he said he didn't give a monkeys who won, as long as it was fair and legal and he would do his best to make sure it was. We never had any issue with him in any game. Every other week it was a nightmare of swearing, abuse, cheating and incompetence.

It doesn't matter what the level is, players will cheat and howl if they're allowed to. Frankly, managers don't do enough to stop it - quite the opposite actually, even Norwich, who seem to have developed a more sanguine approach to game management this season - maybe after being stitched up so much by their opponents last season.

If the people who run the game wanted to change it, they could do so easily. They don't - it makes good telly. 

As for Nuno's comments, he should get a ban from the game entirely for such individual criticism of a fellow professional - but he won't; he'll get a small fine and a warning, because those in charge are not interested in making the game fair and legal, just entertaining.

[pearsos 56]

16 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

 

Managers speak after a game, maybe its time for referees to do so.

This has been muted before but those in charge of referees won’t let it happen.

We are all human and make mistakes and this includes refs and I for one would welcome them explaining certain decisions or admitting they made a mistake.

However VAR was supposed to be used to rectify clear and obvious errors but is this really the case? It can award or rescind a penalty, turn a yellow card into a red or rescind a red card but how can the var referee decide when his fellow ref has made  a clear and obvious error, surely it’s a matter of opinion.

Technology is great in terms of, did the ball cross the goal line or is a player offside (if  the set criteria is right and I don’t think it is yet) but for the rest surely it needs the on field ref to ask for the var ref to check something rather than the other way round, otherwise it’s a matter of the var ref potentially telling the on field ref he knows better than him.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

6 minutes ago, pearsos said:

This has been muted before but those in charge of referees won’t let it happen.

We are all human and make mistakes and this includes refs and I for one would welcome them explaining certain decisions or admitting they made a mistake.

However VAR was supposed to be used to rectify clear and obvious errors but is this really the case? It can award or rescind a penalty, turn a yellow card into a red or rescind a red card but how can the var referee decide when his fellow ref has made  a clear and obvious error, surely it’s a matter of opinion.

Technology is great in terms of, did the ball cross the goal line or is a player offside (if  the set criteria is right and I don’t think it is yet) but for the rest surely it needs the on field ref to ask for the var ref to check something rather than the other way round, otherwise it’s a matter of the var ref potentially telling the on field ref he knows better than him.

Yes, it is the wrong way round. But they see too much in frame by frame rather than the natural way. 

Maybe TV should be told no more replays. We can live without them until after the game. Fans at the ground should see anything either.

Then VAR can be put in a museum as something that didn't fulfil its duties. And the ref can return to making the decisions instead of Jamie Redknapp or Alan Shearer.

[Peanuts 150]

I think they should do away with referees for all youth and non-league football. It might be chaos for a couple of years but sooner or later players and coaches would have to accept that if they want to be able to play they have to behave fairly. Either that or they just carry on trying to out cheat each other. There aren't many decisions in a football match where the players genuinely don't know what the correct outcome should be and perhaps over time we'd see a reduction in the constant cheating in the professional game.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

52 minutes ago, Peanuts said:

I think they should do away with referees for all youth and non-league football. It might be chaos for a couple of years but sooner or later players and coaches would have to accept that if they want to be able to play they have to behave fairly. Either that or they just carry on trying to out cheat each other. There aren't many decisions in a football match where the players genuinely don't know what the correct outcome should be and perhaps over time we'd see a reduction in the constant cheating in the professional game.

I'd have to question that bit in bold a bit. You'd be very surprised how clueless the average player is of the Laws of Football, although it has probably improved with time as pundits get a bit more clued up.

[Walcombe canary 69]

For as long as Managers and Players argue about decisions, and complain about Referee's, VAR will stay. If you listen to MOTD pundits, one minute the player has dived, and should be carded, and the next they say the player has been touched, and has every right to go down. How can a Referee ever be correct.

How would The Manager react, if after a game, The Referee told the Media that the Managers Tactics, Substitutions  and bought rubbish in the window were the reason his team were poor and lost ?