New Tory Leader

[Barbe bleu 961]

19 minutes ago, Herman said:

Yes and the Mona Lisa was a purchase by the French king at the time.

Sure, and people will have views about the legality of the Elgin marbles procurement.   In some repairs that it a strange way to look at it.  No one living lost anything when the marbles were moved and to say that a non-corporeal entity, like a country, that exists only in the imagination is capable of owning anything is a legal fiction.

The point I was making was not about legal principles but  about value and  specifically whether any bit of art has value if it is detached from its place of origin. 

My suggestion is that no one thinks less of the mona Lisa because it is no longer in lombardy and might instead argue that by being in Paris it reaches a greater audience than it ever could in its place or origin. Likewise, the statue of liberty has the symbolic value it does only because it was moved across the Atlantic.

It's OK to focus on nationalist ideas and current legal principles but perhaps one should also focus on the question of how best the marbles can tell the story of ancient Greece and civilisation more generally and do so yo the maximum number of people.

Its also worth focussing on how best a piece of art can put that chapter of human development in its context - a context in which the viewer will realise that these marbles were not crafted in a vacuum but instead were inspired by similar art in, for example, ancient temples in Persepolis, Palmyra and Ur and are part of a 6000 year old story that continues in modern art and architecture

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Barbe bleu

[NFN FC 1,142]

This could be an opportunity. What else could we send back to it's origin? iPhones? McDonald's? Tim Martin? Wait no, I got it, David Wagner!?

[A Load of Squit 5,844]

In this season of prisoner/hostage swaps the UK sent some people who had committed some of the worst crimes in recent months to the USA, we asked for nothing in return.

 

[canarydan23 4,561]

14 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Sure, and people will have views about the legality of the Elgin marbles procurement.   In some repairs that it a strange way to look at it.  No one living lost anything when the marbles were moved and to say that a non-corporeal entity, like a country, that exists only in the imagination is capable of owning anything is a legal fiction.

The point I was making was not about legal principles but  about value and  specifically whether any bit of art has value if it is detached from its place of origin. 

My suggestion is that no one thinks less of the mona Lisa because it is no longer in lombardy and might instead argue that by being in Paris it reaches a greater audience than it ever could in its place or origin. Likewise, the statue of liberty has the symbolic value it does only because it was moved across the Atlantic.

It's OK to focus on nationalist ideas and current legal principles but perhaps one should also focus on the question of how best the marbles can tell the story of ancient Greece and civilisation more generally and do so yo the maximum number of people.

Its also worth focussing on how best a piece of art can put that chapter of human development in its context - a context in which the viewer will realise that these marbles were not crafted in a vacuum but instead were inspired by similar art in, for example, ancient temples in Persepolis, Palmyra and Ur and are part of a 6000 year old story that continues in modern art and architecture

The fact that it's so difficult to come up with an argument against the repatriation of the Parthenon Marbles that this is the best you can do should tell you something.

[TheGunnShow 6,899]

13 hours ago, NFN FC said:

This could be an opportunity. What else could we send back to it's origin? iPhones? McDonald's? Tim Martin? Wait no, I got it, David Wagner!?

Boris Johnson, surely?

[TheGunnShow 6,899]

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

In this season of prisoner/hostage swaps the UK sent some people who had committed some of the worst crimes in recent months to the USA, we asked for nothing in return.

 

And the flag's at half-mast in Truss's presence. Well, that speaks volumes. 😄

[Yellow Fever 4,222]

3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

And the flag's at half-mast in Truss's presence. Well, that speaks volumes. 😄

Arh Lord Howard - I could almost forgive his feudal rights to supremacy in Castle Rising as below but pushing Truss on us all is  unforgivable. To the tower! 

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23955863.norfolk-aristocrat-quits-castle-rising-parish-council/

[littleyellowbirdie 2,957]

16 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I think we should give the Elgin marbles to Greece immediately after the French return the Mona Lisa to Italy and the US hands the statue of liberty back to France.

I think it's a great example. The modern Greek government has no more claim over the products of artists of ancient Greece than any other government. They were sold in a transaction by those who ruled the territory at the time.

The Greek PM has set back their case for a political stunt. It's exactly the lack of tact and diplomacy people criticised Boris Johnson for as foreign secretary.

[Yellow Fever 4,222]

15 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

My suggestion is that no one thinks less of the mona Lisa because it is no longer in lombardy and might instead argue that by being in Paris it reaches a greater audience than it ever could in its place or origin. Likewise, the statue of liberty has the symbolic value it does only because it was moved across the Atlantic.

As stated elsewhere - The Statue of Liberty was made in France new for the USA (It was originally conceived as Muslim peasant woman lighthouse for Suez....).

The Mona Lisa Leonardo left to the King of France himself! Indeed it was likely completed there!

Either way they were 'new' and not heritage items!

Bad examples. 

 

Better examples might be the return of stolen N a z ! treasures and the like.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Yellow Fever 4,222]

Auto pilot already shouting 'Terrain' and started stick shaking - "Pull up,  Pull Up,  Pull up" it squarks.

Ground control "Tory pilot - Eject  Eject  Eject!" 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Barbe bleu 961]

19 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Auto pilot already shouting 'Terrain' and started stick shaking - "Pull up,  Pull Up,  Pull up" it squarks.

Ground control "Tory pilot - Eject  Eject  Eject!" 

You missed the opportunity to use the famous aircraft  warning- '****'. 

Ir "Re tard" as the filter puts it

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Barbe bleu

[Nuff Said 5,652]

On 30/11/2023 at 09:39, A Load of Squit said:

In this season of prisoner/hostage swaps the UK sent some people who had committed some of the worst crimes in recent months to the USA, we asked for nothing in return.

 

Mark Francois? Really? Is that the best you’ve got Ms Truss? He makes Lee Andersen look like Jeremy Paxman.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Nuff Said

[Barbe bleu 961]

On 30/11/2023 at 10:37, canarydan23 said:

The fact that it's so difficult to come up with an argument against the repatriation of the Parthenon Marbles that this is the best you can do should tell you something.

If you have nothing to contribute other than your disagreement with a post why not save the effort of words and just use one of the emojis?

[Barbe bleu 961]

23 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

As stated elsewhere - The Statue of Liberty was made in France new for the USA (It was originally conceived as Muslim peasant woman lighthouse for Suez....).

The Mona Lisa Leonardo left to the King of France himself! Indeed it was likely completed there!

Either way they were 'new' and not heritage 

You may have missed the point being  made. I'm not talking so much about legal principles or built heritage, but about how art becomes valued

A lot of the Greek claim to the Elgin marbles rests on the argument that "we made them, so they are ours". Putting aside the wider arguments about the applicability of this argument the two examples were given because they illustrate that art often becomes more valuable when it is moved away from its place of origin.

In the case of the Mona Lisa its  accessibility is a value it might not have if it stayed it lombardy.  And if the French did the same with liberty its symbolism as a token of friendship and fraternity would be more than a little undermined.

I would probably have more sympathy with the Greek claim if they planned to put them on the actual building rather than in a museum.  That way they could speak of the value that exists in people being able to see the marbles as they were originally intended and the whole structure in state as close as it could be to that in which it was at the height of Athens.   But they don't want to do that, they want to put them in a museum, like the one they are actually already in but one where there is more focus on Greek national identity and less on the hoe the Greek world fits into a much wider narrative about civilisation (if you went the BM you'd be guided through halls that show how the Elgin marbles are a continuation of themes developed in Egypt and Mesopotamia.

As I recall the hall immediately next to the marbles has a frieze from a temple in Ur; Just putting those two things next to each other has a powerful effect and tells us much about how little national identity really means and how for all the national constructs we build people are really just people, wherever they come from- I'd have thought the lefties on here would love that , but I guess they cannot get over their prejudices and refuse to put down those lenses they see everything  through.

[Yellow Fever 4,222]

8 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

You may have missed the point being  made. I'm not talking so much about legal principles or built heritage, but about how art becomes valued

A lot of the Greek claim to the Elgin marbles rests on the argument that "we made them, so they are ours". Putting aside the wider arguments about the applicability of this argument the two examples were given because they illustrate that art often becomes more valuable when it is moved away from its place of origin.

In the case of the Mona Lisa its  accessibility is a value it might not have if it stayed it lombardy.  And if the French did the same with liberty its symbolism as a token of friendship and fraternity would be more than a little undermined.

I would probably have more sympathy with the Greek claim if they planned to put them on the actual building rather than in a museum.  That way they could speak of the value that exists in people being able to see the marbles as they were originally intended and the whole structure in state as close as it could be to that in which it was at the height of Athens.   But they don't want to do that, they want to put them in a museum, like the one they are actually already in but one where there is more focus on Greek national identity and less on the hoe the Greek world fits into a much wider narrative about civilisation (if you went the BM you'd be guided through halls that show how the Elgin marbles are a continuation of themes developed in Egypt and Mesopotamia.

As I recall the hall immediately next to the marbles has a frieze from a temple in Ur; Just putting those two things next to each other has a powerful effect and tells us much about how little national identity really means and how for all the national constructs we build people are really just people, wherever they come from- I'd have thought the lefties on here would love that , but I guess they cannot get over their prejudices and refuse to put down those lenses they see everything  through.

Can't type too much on a phone but I don't think of these as 'art' at all but they are indeed all about iconic heritage. If you want to study and experience Greek antiquity go to Greece. Same as Egypt or the Mayans in Mexico, Khmer in  Cambodia and so on. That doesn't stop lesser items being loaned or displayed worldwide as per Tutankamuns death mask but they do belong in their cultural home in context. By your argument Stonehenge should be moved to London as well!

As to how they came to the UK is frankly irrelevant. They were moved or robbed from the Acropolis in recent historical times and have been museum pieces eversince. They have never formed part of a British heritage. Today no nation would allow the removal of such items.

[Barbe bleu 961]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Can't type too much on a phone but I don't think of these as 'art' at all but they are indeed all about iconic heritage. If you want to study and experience Greek antiquity go to Greece. Same as Egypt or the Mayans in Mexico, Khmer in  Cambodia and so on. That doesn't stop lesser items being loaned or displayed worldwide as per Tutankamuns death mask but they do belong in their cultural home in context. By your argument Stonehenge should be moved to London as well!

 

By my argument if stonehenge were in a museum and unlikely ever to go back on Salisbury plain the best museum for it would be the one that the most people visit and the one where its place in the great narrative arc could be best appreciated. 

I agree on context being important. But 21st century athens isn't really the most relevant context.  In the BM the viewer is guided through halls showing the architecture of Egypt and mesopotamia before arriving in ancient Greece.  The viewer's journey thus allows them to appreciate how what happened in ancient Athens  was just one part of a longer path and that nothing happens in a vacuum. The viewer will also have an appraciatio  perhaps that, whatever flags and myths we construct, nation states are really not that important and nor are nationalistic agendas.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Barbe bleu

[Herman 10,691]

 

[Well b back 3,561]

Why do they have to lie / spin everything ? 
‘ We have given a record number of GP appointments this year and smashed any previous year ‘

The Truth !
Of course you have, you have added Covid vaccinations to the figures and classed that as an appointment ?
It really is time to go.

[Herman 10,691]

 

[Well b back 3,561]

On 03/12/2023 at 09:32, Well b back said:

Why do they have to lie / spin everything ? 
‘ We have given a record number of GP appointments this year and smashed any previous year ‘

The Truth !
Of course you have, you have added Covid vaccinations to the figures and classed that as an appointment ?
It really is time to go.

They are being a bit forgetful again yesterday

’ We are banning dependants as only 20% of them work ‘

The truth is 50% of the dependants are their children, and unless I am mistaken we banned child Labour in the U.K. some years ago.

[Yellow Fever 4,222]

Cleverly - Immigration.

I can see some good points in what is proposed (undergraduate or 1 year Masters students don't need to bring dependents), the removal of lower pay (no under cutting),  but also some 'unforeseen' (or is it ignored) issues such as with the much needed care or NHS workers. I suspect the change will only exacerbate the shortage of workers there. All in all it strikes me as 'emergency' (for the Tories) hasty policy.  

In all it reminds me of why I think many non-European immigrant communities voted for Brexit. They correctly calculated that stopping FOM for European workers (who would generally later freely return i.e the Poles) would by necessity open the flood gates to their compatriots (and dependents) for a permanent move. As the numbers now suggest - they were right.

Be careful what you wish for especially when doing a deal with the populist devil.

[Well b back 3,561]

25 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Cleverly - Immigration.

I can see some good points in what is proposed (undergraduate or 1 year Masters students don't need to bring dependents), the removal of lower pay (no under cutting),  but also some 'unforeseen' (or is it ignored) issues such as with the much needed care or NHS workers. I suspect the change will only exacerbate the shortage of workers there. All in all it strikes me as 'emergency' (for the Tories) hasty policy.  

In all it reminds me of why I think many non-European immigrant communities voted for Brexit. They correctly calculated that stopping FOM for European workers (who would generally later freely return i.e the Poles) would by necessity open the flood gates to their compatriots (and dependents) for a permanent move. As the numbers now suggest - they were right.

Be careful what you wish for especially when doing a deal with the populist devil.

Yep

He keeps saying ( as does Farage and Braverman ) Brits will take up the jobs in the care homes. Bet none of their kids are on minimum wage wiping peoples a****, cleaning up sick, changing soiled beds, feeding people with dementia. Nor in fairness would any kid I know.

l am really beginning to believe they are deliberately f****** everything up for when Labour come in to make their job impossible.

[dylanisabaddog 5,618]

45 minutes ago, Well b back said:

 

l am really beginning to believe they are deliberately f****** everything up for when Labour come in to make their job impossible.

There have been occasions recently when I've thought exactly the same. They are virtually forcing Labour to reverse some crazy policies just so they can say in a year's time I told you so. 

[Yellow Fever 4,222]

2 hours ago, Well b back said:

Yep

He keeps saying ( as does Farage and Braverman ) Brits will take up the jobs in the care homes. Bet none of their kids are on minimum wage wiping peoples a****, cleaning up sick, changing soiled beds, feeding people with dementia. Nor in fairness would any kid I know.

l am really beginning to believe they are deliberately f****** everything up for when Labour come in to make their job impossible.

 

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

There have been occasions recently when I've thought exactly the same. They are virtually forcing Labour to reverse some crazy policies just so they can say in a year's time I told you so. 

Yes - It was my 'or is it ignored' quip. Causing a bigger problem down the road in Care and NHS in a couple of years for short term gain.

Oddly - they will make the case for re-entry into the SM and FOM every day to save the NHS / Care!

Write it on a bus.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[TheGunnShow 6,899]

1 hour ago, Well b back said:

Yep

He keeps saying ( as does Farage and Braverman ) Brits will take up the jobs in the care homes. Bet none of their kids are on minimum wage wiping peoples a****, cleaning up sick, changing soiled beds, feeding people with dementia. Nor in fairness would any kid I know.

l am really beginning to believe they are deliberately f****** everything up for when Labour come in to make their job impossible.

Well, they sure as hell haven't taken the jobs picking fruit/vegetables, that's for sure. It shows that a lot of Eastern European labourers were propping up the farming sector and were happy to work in conditions that were unacceptable to Brits as they were still far better than what they'd have back in their homelands. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[NFN FC 1,142]

1 hour ago, Well b back said:

Yep

He keeps saying ( as does Farage and Braverman ) Brits will take up the jobs in the care homes. Bet none of their kids are on minimum wage wiping peoples a****, cleaning up sick, changing soiled beds, feeding people with dementia. Nor in fairness would any kid I know.

l am really beginning to believe they are deliberately f****** everything up for when Labour come in to make their job impossible.

I worked as a manager in hospitality for over 15 years and I would avoid hiring Brits in end. About 80% would be a let down. Always 'sick', poor work ethic and unenthusiastic. With the EU workers, it would be around 20%. 

[A Load of Squit 5,844]

OK everyone, it's time to get over to Oliver Dowdens Candle and Wind up Radio Shack, lots of bargains to be had, the perfect gift for all the family.

Extra special offer on scented candles with 'The whiff of rancid government' sadly not going fast.  

[Pyro Pete 2,210]

ITV news:

 

[Pyro Pete 2,210]

The Tory candidate for London mayor is bewildered how her purse was returned to her with everything still in it.

 

[Herman 10,691]

Oh no, Honest Bob Jenrick has gone.