New Tory Leader

[Well b back 3,309]

49 minutes ago, Herman said:

Oh no, Honest Bob Jenrick has gone.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67640833

[Herman 9,859]

4 minutes ago, Well b back said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67640833

I thought he had resigned for decent reasons. Turns out he's just a big ****.

[A Load of Squit 5,244]

58 minutes ago, Herman said:

Oh no, Honest Bob Jenrick has gone.

Perfect time to bring Suella Braverman back into the cabinet. 😀

[Fen Canary 898]

On 06/12/2023 at 00:54, NFN FC said:

I worked as a manager in hospitality for over 15 years and I would avoid hiring Brits in end. About 80% would be a let down. Always 'sick', poor work ethic and unenthusiastic. With the EU workers, it would be around 20%. 

Isn’t it amazing how it’s always the industries that pay their employees peanuts that moan about the work ethic of the average Brit.

In my younger years I heard the exact same arguments in Australia and Canada from the same low paying industries, that the work ethic of the native population was awful and they couldn’t get good staff so they preferred to employ British backpackers instead.

its almost as if by paying terrible salaries for jobs with unsociable hours you’re left with having to employ from the dregs of the domestic workforce, as anybody decent is simply going to look elsewhere for work that pays better and has favourable working conditions.

Hospitality loved EU staff because it meant they didn’t have to offer decent wages to attract decent employees, that’s the only reason. 

[Herman 9,859]

It's always been about what's best for the tory party for these mother****ers. Never, ever about what is best for the country.

 

[NFN FC 1,123]

29 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Isn’t it amazing how it’s always the industries that pay their employees peanuts that moan about the work ethic of the average Brit.

In my younger years I heard the exact same arguments in Australia and Canada from the same low paying industries, that the work ethic of the native population was awful and they couldn’t get good staff so they preferred to employ British backpackers instead.

its almost as if by paying terrible salaries for jobs with unsociable hours you’re left with having to employ from the dregs of the domestic workforce, as anybody decent is simply going to look elsewhere for work that pays better and has favourable working conditions.

Hospitality loved EU staff because it meant they didn’t have to offer decent wages to attract decent employees, that’s the only reason. 

Some good points Fen. It's generally true that the hospitality industry doesn't pay much. If they didn't the cost of pints and meals would be much higher. 

Do you think everyone should be paid more than the minimum wage Fen?

[Yellow Fever 3,851]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

Isn’t it amazing how it’s always the industries that pay their employees peanuts that moan about the work ethic of the average Brit.

In my younger years I heard the exact same arguments in Australia and Canada from the same low paying industries, that the work ethic of the native population was awful and they couldn’t get good staff so they preferred to employ British backpackers instead.

its almost as if by paying terrible salaries for jobs with unsociable hours you’re left with having to employ from the dregs of the domestic workforce, as anybody decent is simply going to look elsewhere for work that pays better and has favourable working conditions.

Hospitality loved EU staff because it meant they didn’t have to offer decent wages to attract decent employees, that’s the only reason. 

Seems to me your anecdotes suggest immigrants workers work harder than the indolent natives.

[Yellow Fever 3,851]

Just have some balls for once Rishi. Call an election tomorrow. Best for the country; best for the Tory party too.

[Barbe bleu 837]

1 hour ago, NFN FC said:

Some good points Fen. It's generally true that the hospitality industry doesn't pay much. If they didn't the cost of pints and meals would be much higher. 

Do you think everyone should be paid more than the minimum wage Fen?

I'll answer.  Yes, pretty much.  We really need to look at minimum wage not as some form of guide rate, but as a point that should rarely be sunk to.  If that makes me a socialist then so be it. 

 

[Well b back 3,309]

23 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'll answer.  Yes, pretty much.  We really need to look at minimum wage not as some form of guide rate, but as a point that should rarely be sunk to.  If that makes me a socialist then so be it. 

 

Do you think if you paid kids £15 an hour in the care sector to wipe a****, clear up sick, change soiled beds, feed people unfortunately not able to feed themselves, they would be fighting over the jobs ? Personally I don’t think many would want to take the jobs.

[Fen Canary 898]

2 hours ago, NFN FC said:

Some good points Fen. It's generally true that the hospitality industry doesn't pay much. If they didn't the cost of pints and meals would be much higher. 

Do you think everyone should be paid more than the minimum wage Fen?

No I don’t, but I believe that if a company is struggling to find people to take the job at the wages offered then they should have to either increase the salary in order to attract applicants or improve productivity to get more out of the workers they have. What they shouldn’t be able to do is import cheap labour from abroad simply to keep their profit margins up.

If their business can only survive by importing cheap labour and paying people not enough to live on then it’s a business we don’t really need as society. All their competitors then have to do the same and we end up in a race to the bottom with the taxpayer having to top up peoples salaries to allow them to live.

Stop importing people (give housebuilding time to catch up), let companies compete for labour and salaries rise, some of the more poorly run ones will fail then we’ll no longer have a supposed shortage of workers and wages will settle at the new higher level.

I would make an exception for seasonal work such as fruit and veg picking, I’d import workers on temporary work visas for that as it’s not feasible for the locals to do those as it’s not full time work

[Fen Canary 898]

45 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Do you think if you paid kids £15 an hour in the care sector to wipe a****, clear up sick, change soiled beds, feed people unfortunately not able to feed themselves, they would be fighting over the jobs ? Personally I don’t think many would want to take the jobs.

Then you offer more, and keep offering more until you have the staff you need. Supply and demand 

[NFN FC 1,123]

5 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

No I don’t, but I believe that if a company is struggling to find people to take the job at the wages offered then they should have to either increase the salary in order to attract applicants or improve productivity to get more out of the workers they have. What they shouldn’t be able to do is import cheap labour from abroad simply to keep their profit margins up.

If their business can only survive by importing cheap labour and paying people not enough to live on then it’s a business we don’t really need as society. All their competitors then have to do the same and we end up in a race to the bottom with the taxpayer having to top up peoples salaries to allow them to live.

Stop importing people (give housebuilding time to catch up), let companies compete for labour and salaries rise, some of the more poorly run ones will fail then we’ll no longer have a supposed shortage of workers and wages will settle at the new higher level.

I would make an exception for seasonal work such as fruit and veg picking, I’d import workers on temporary work visas for that as it’s not feasible for the locals to do those as it’s not full time work

I never had to import labour. It was always the people that were here already. Mainly the stark contrast in work ethic was clearly shown by an British student and a, for example, Hungarian student. 

Another problem is many don't want the unskilled jobs but don't have any skills. 

[Fen Canary 898]

3 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

I never had to import labour. It was always the people that were here already. Mainly the stark contrast in work ethic was clearly shown by an British student and a, for example, Hungarian student. 

Another problem is many don't want the unskilled jobs but don't have any skills. 

That’s splitting hairs slightly, you may not have imported the labour yourself but your industry was reliant on imported workers to keep wages low. If those foreign workers weren’t available then the hospo companies would have been forced to offer better pay and conditions in order to attract the staff their businesses needed.

[Herman 9,859]

5 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Then you offer more, and keep offering more until you have the staff you need. Supply and demand 

Ok, people will have to pay a higher tax rate. People have to realise they can't have good services on the cheap.

[Herman 9,859]

 

[NFN FC 1,123]

48 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

That’s splitting hairs slightly, you may not have imported the labour yourself but your industry was reliant on imported workers to keep wages low. If those foreign workers weren’t available then the hospo companies would have been forced to offer better pay and conditions in order to attract the staff their businesses needed.

Okay, then what do you do with the useless individuals?

Just cos they're paid more, doesn't mean they'll be better.

Edited December 7, 2023 by NFN FC

[Fen Canary 898]

59 minutes ago, Herman said:

Ok, people will have to pay a higher tax rate. People have to realise they can't have good services on the cheap.

I’ve got no problem with that

[Fen Canary 898]

42 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

Okay, then what do you do with the useless individuals?

Just cos they're paid more, doesn't mean they'll be better.

Maybe not, but at least they won’t require as much taxpayer money to top up their wages in order to live 

[Barbe bleu 837]

9 hours ago, Well b back said:

Do you think if you paid kids £15 an hour in the care sector to wipe a****, clear up sick, change soiled beds, feed people unfortunately not able to feed themselves, they would be fighting over the jobs ? Personally I don’t think many would want to take the jobs.

I was commenting about minimum wage generally rather than in relation to any one industry in particular.My instinct is to think that @Fen Canary has it about right.  I'd imagine that it's a 70-80s Labour Party take on labour relations but I do think it has merit worth considering.  Fine lines and careful balances required for sure though

I actually have an 18 year old relative who is a minimum wage care worker from near you. I think she has already found her niche, but she knows she cannot stay in her role long term because of the wage and prospects.

 

[sonyc 5,541]

9 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

No I don’t, but I believe that if a company is struggling to find people to take the job at the wages offered then they should have to either increase the salary in order to attract applicants or improve productivity to get more out of the workers they have. What they shouldn’t be able to do is import cheap labour from abroad simply to keep their profit margins up.

If their business can only survive by importing cheap labour and paying people not enough to live on then it’s a business we don’t really need as society. All their competitors then have to do the same and we end up in a race to the bottom with the taxpayer having to top up peoples salaries to allow them to live.

Stop importing people (give housebuilding time to catch up), let companies compete for labour and salaries rise, some of the more poorly run ones will fail then we’ll no longer have a supposed shortage of workers and wages will settle at the new higher level.

I would make an exception for seasonal work such as fruit and veg picking, I’d import workers on temporary work visas for that as it’s not feasible for the locals to do those as it’s not full time work

Agree with the whole gist of this Fen. Your post indicates the structural problem we have in the labour market. I recall working alongside third sector companies who would talk the talk about how they were tackling social problems through their innovative range of services but then finding out they were paying minimum wage to so many of their workers. I found it hypocritical even though I understood why. To me though there was a disconnect with their values. 

What we need to do urgently is to invest in skills acquisition for all, in the industries we know that will grow. We also need to really value the care sector, make it one that people want to work in because of the soft skills needed and for the pay and promotion potential.

[sonyc 5,541]

12 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Just have some balls for once Rishi. Call an election tomorrow. Best for the country; best for the Tory party too.

I wonder if he might even survive that long. The vultures are circling. Sunak under pressure this morning and the press are circling too because they smell something.

They're going to do it again aren't they? Another infernal leadership campaign that the country has to put up with... We've had so many ministerial changes in most of the big departments.  All the hallmarks of decay.

[Yellow Fever 3,851]

47 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I They're going to do it again aren't they? Another infernal leadership campaign that the country has to put up with... We've had so many ministerial changes in most of the big departments.  All the hallmarks of decay.

I'm afraid so.

And the moment they do start Rishi should make a visit - to the King.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Yellow Fever 3,851]

I just realized fully what Sunak was saying about the consequences of pulling out of the ECHR for the Rwanda 'deal'.

If we do Rwanda doesn't want to know us - no deal.

After all - if you are Rwanda and trying to improve your international reputation why would you possibly enter any treaty with such a reprobate country. Yes Tory head-bangers   look at how low you can bring this once great countries reputation. It's been downhill of course ever since Johnson and with little respect for any law (illegally prorogue parliament, parties.....) 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,459]

I can't quite see how this is all going to play out for the nasty party...

I see there's a commons vote on a Tuesday. Could be interesting or it just reinforces what a horrible little lot they are.

[sonyc 5,541]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

I just realized fully what Sunak was saying about the consequences of pulling out of the ECHR for the Rwanda 'deal'.

If we do Rwanda doesn't want to know us - no deal.

After all - if you are Rwanda and trying to improve your international reputation why would you possibly enter any treaty with such a reprobate country. Yes Tory head-bangers   look at how low you can bring this once great countries reputation. It's been downhill of course ever since Johnson and with little respect for any law (illegally prorogue parliament, parties.....) 

...an odd cartoon for the fact it's as serious as it is funny. I guess that's the best humour because it gets to the darkness that lies beneath.

 

[Fen Canary 898]

8 hours ago, sonyc said:

Agree with the whole gist of this Fen. Your post indicates the structural problem we have in the labour market. I recall working alongside third sector companies who would talk the talk about how they were tackling social problems through their innovative range of services but then finding out they were paying minimum wage to so many of their workers. I found it hypocritical even though I understood why. To me though there was a disconnect with their values. 

What we need to do urgently is to invest in skills acquisition for all, in the industries we know that will grow. We also need to really value the care sector, make it one that people want to work in because of the soft skills needed and for the pay and promotion potential.

I agree it’s been an incredible lack of foresight (as well as greed by most industries). I work in the building industry and for decades now they haven’t trained up anywhere near the number of apprentices they needed to, instead becoming reliant on importing ready made lads from Eastern Europe. Once Covid hit a good few of them went back home, and along with the older boys retiring the industry now has a shortage of workers that’s entirely of their own making and wages started to climb as a result.

However rather than bite the bullet, pay the higher wages for a while and train a glut of apprentices to make up the shortfall, they instead went crying to the government demanding that they be allowed to import more trades from overseas in order to keep wages from spiralling, which the government seemingly caved in to.

Id imagine it’s a similar scenario amongst many other industries, as you say we need to start training our youngsters again but that shouldn’t really fall into the government. The taxpayer shouldn’t have to pay to make business rich, if a company needs certain skills of their employer then it should be up to that company to train them. What the government shouldn’t be doing is allowing those businesses to use large scale immigration to sidestep those responsibilities 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,199]

12 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I agree it’s been an incredible lack of foresight (as well as greed by most industries). I work in the building industry and for decades now they haven’t trained up anywhere near the number of apprentices they needed to, instead becoming reliant on importing ready made lads from Eastern Europe. Once Covid hit a good few of them went back home, and along with the older boys retiring the industry now has a shortage of workers that’s entirely of their own making and wages started to climb as a result.

However rather than bite the bullet, pay the higher wages for a while and train a glut of apprentices to make up the shortfall, they instead went crying to the government demanding that they be allowed to import more trades from overseas in order to keep wages from spiralling, which the government seemingly caved in to.

Id imagine it’s a similar scenario amongst many other industries, as you say we need to start training our youngsters again but that shouldn’t really fall into the government. The taxpayer shouldn’t have to pay to make business rich, if a company needs certain skills of their employer then it should be up to that company to train them. What the government shouldn’t be doing is allowing those businesses to use large scale immigration to sidestep those responsibilities 

I've been out of the uk construction industry for 5 years now, so this might be a bit outdated, but for me a bigger problem over the last 20 years or so has been a reliance on agencies, rather than directly employed workers.

Not easy to recruit people into jobs with little job protection and working rights

I'd like to see self employed status only for those who genuinely are self employed

[Fen Canary 898]

5 hours ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

I've been out of the uk construction industry for 5 years now, so this might be a bit outdated, but for me a bigger problem over the last 20 years or so has been a reliance on agencies, rather than directly employed workers.

Not easy to recruit people into jobs with little job protection and working rights

I'd like to see self employed status only for those who genuinely are self employed

The self employment thing has always gone on. I know blokes who have worked for the same firm for over a decade who are all self employed. They get to massively reduce the tax they pay and the boss gives them a bit more money but doesn’t have to worry about the obligations of having them as employees. Not saying it’s right but that’s always been fairly common and both sides see it as mutually beneficial.

I agree with the agencies, a lot of the more unscrupulous firms have a shedload of agency workers then simply bin them off at the end of the job. It’s a hard thing to prevent happening though 

[Yellow Fever 3,851]

I see Rwanda has won the lottery again. Another £100M (+£50M to come) - so £290M total for doing nothing.

Anybody know of any other deserving cases for Tory largess (I know we had the PPE scandals) but £300M could be so better spent elsewhere than on nutter dreams. Perhaps mental health (for the warring Tories)  or the NHS?

Edited December 8, 2023 by Yellow Fever