New Tory Leader

[horsefly 4,301]

Just now, keelansgrandad said:

He couldn't run a charity.

But he'd happily defraud one.

[KiwiScot 1,446]

Well no surprises in the end except it being closer than it appeared to be from earlier down the contest.

[Essjayess 307]

16 minutes ago, KiwiScot said:

Well no surprises in the end except it being closer than it appeared to be from earlier down the contest.

Agreed. Penny M did well to get 105 votes but end of the day the Tory MPs were 100% certain to shoot their party in the foot by voting Sunak and Truss into the final two. Whoever wins they will likely drag the Tories on in power for another year or two but the next GE should see a change of the guard...not because Labour are any better than the Tories imo but that the Tories have been in power for over a decade now and its just a natural change over as how our nation's voting always pans out.

[sonyc 5,523]

 

 

 

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

10 minutes ago, KiwiScot said:

Well no surprises in the end except it being closer than it appeared to be from earlier down the contest.

Just so - very pleased to see that Mordor didn't make it through but that still leaves us, as was always feared, with either Sunak or Truss and the distinct possibility that Tory party members could just be mad enough or stupid enough (or both!!) to pick Truss 🙄

[1902 1,167]

14 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Just so - very pleased to see that Mordor didn't make it through but that still leaves us, as was always feared, with either Sunak or Truss and the distinct possibility that Tory party members could just be mad enough or stupid enough (or both!!) to pick Truss 🙄

Truss is electoral suicide for the conservative party. Then again they have become so navel gazing recently that it's almost probable that they will bring her to power for 12-18 ineffective months.

Then again, I'm quite happy for the conservatives to take the blame for the UKs economic situation given they have never done much to avert it.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Putin probably thought what opposition have I got? Biden the pensioner and Johnson the Clown. Now he has the cheese Tsar to worry about.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

I think the Conservative party just told the world, in not so many words, that it secretly wants to lose the next GE. 

 

[Icecream Snow 761]

Liz Truss in a hastily deleted tweet has told everyone she wants to "hit the ground" - bit like the economy then.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

The Weak are a long time in Politics

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

With the economic outlook as bleak as it is - cost of living and recession looming I don't think any new Tory leader can save the day for them. Their goose is well and truly cooked. 

The issue is who will act competently in the next couple of years and at least not make things any worse than they will otherwise be. In short stop digging ever deeper holes.

Of the two that has to be Sunak as less idealogically driven and already proven to make 'unpopular' decisions.

Truss I'm fairly sure will burn the Tory party into the ground along with a scorched earth economy.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

In Cornwall, if you are called a Tuss, its an insult.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

After a beer and a couple of gin and tonics, overall I think Sunak would be my preferred choice, purely on the grounds that a PM from an Indian background can't be a bad thing while we're looking to woo the Middle East and Asia on trade. 

[Herman 9,769]

[sonyc 5,523]

35 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

After a beer and a couple of gin and tonics, overall I think Sunak would be my preferred choice, purely on the grounds that a PM from an Indian background can't be a bad thing while we're looking to woo the Middle East and Asia on trade. 

Agree with you LYB. Sunak is the better candidate for the country than Truss too, of the two of them. Regardless of his background. But Truss looks odds on with the membership. Don't forget too that Sunak is greatly despised by a good part of the Tory membership because they see him as being very disloyal to their idol Johnson. There has even been a clamour for Johnson's name to be added to the final two by parts of the party. Quite incredible to think about that. This after his conduct in public office. The love in for him runs very deep. It all feels very Trumpian too in Johnson's veiled threats today that he is not going away. Wonder if Truss becomes PM then he might be back in the cabinet. Stranger things have happened.

 

[1902 1,167]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I think the Conservative party just told the world, in not so many words, that it secretly wants to lose the next GE. 

 

"Speaks like she's fighting the English language" is a wonderful description.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

46 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Agree with you LYB. Sunak is the better candidate for the country than Truss too, of the two of them. Regardless of his background. But Truss looks odds on with the membership. Don't forget too that Sunak is greatly despised by a good part of the Tory membership because they see him as being very disloyal to their idol Johnson. There has even been a clamour for Johnson's name to be added to the final two by parts of the party. Quite incredible to think about that. This after his conduct in public office. The love in for him runs very deep. It all feels very Trumpian too in Johnson's veiled threats today that he is not going away. Wonder if Truss becomes PM then he might be back in the cabinet. Stranger things have happened.

 

There's definitely a bit of cult of personality about Johnson, but I don't think he's remotely on a par with Trump. While Johnson did hang on for grim death, he couldn't stop his own party turning on him to get rid of him, and he was persuaded to resign. He's an elected MP, so he doesn't have to leave parliament if he doesn't want to and can fight for power in the party of which he's a part. 

Whatever people think of him, he hasn't committed treason. I also think that for all of the faults, he still hasn't led us into an actual invasion of another country on false pretenses; the PM that did that not only didn't resign, but went on to win another landslide majority...

[sonyc 5,523]

14 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There's definitely a bit of cult of personality about Johnson, but I don't think he's remotely on a par with Trump. While Johnson did hang on for grim death, he couldn't stop his own party turning on him to get rid of him, and he was persuaded to resign. He's an elected MP, so he doesn't have to leave parliament if he doesn't want to and can fight for power in the party of which he's a part. 

Whatever people think of him, he hasn't committed treason. I also think that for all of the faults, he still hasn't led us into an actual invasion of another country on false pretenses; the PM that did that not only didn't resign, but went on to win another landslide majority...

Yes, that Blair end of era was tawdry. Serious lack of judgement. Don't forget though about the Lebedev questions that are just starting about Johnson's behaviour.

I think we may hear a few more stories too around Johnson once he is finally out of the No.10 door! Plus, we will hear knock backs from parts of the press in his support. That's what's Trumpian...not that he is on a par as a person but all the choreography is there, to use such a term. He isn't leaving with any grace and yet there is blame being levelled by some Tories on Labour because he wasn't applauded by opposition MPs today. Interesting to see May sit down and not join in.

If you or I had done even half of what Johnson has done in our work for any company or large business we would have been marched out through the back door. We would not have received a round of applause for our deception and lies!

Edited July 20, 2022 by sonyc

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

22 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Yes, that Blair end of era was tawdry. Serious lack of judgement. Don't forget though about the Lebedev questions that are just starting about Johnson's behaviour.

I think we may hear a few more stories too around Johnson once he is finally out of the No.10 door! Plus, we will hear knock backs from parts of the press in his support. That's what's Trumpian...not that he is on a par as a person but all the choreography is there, to use such a term. He isn't leaving with any grace and yet there is blame being levelled by some Tories Labour because he wasn't applauded by opposition MPs today. Interesting to see May sit down and not join in.

If you or I had done even half of what Johnson has done in our work for any company or large business we would have been marched out through the back door. We would not have received a round of applause for our deception and lies!

There's a bit of chicken and egg with Johnson. Opposition gloves were off from the outset when he took office. The rhetoric about 'liar' was ramped up to 11 at the outset without so much as a pretense of civility. 

Politicians have always lied, but people didn't call it lies, they'd say the statement was misleading, or the statement was untrue. Not any more. 

Even Penny Mordaunt got the liar tag thrown at her over a comment about EU vetos 6 years ago. 6 years ago. Nobody made anything of it then, but now, apparently that's a really big deal, in the same country where a party lied to take us into a war where we turned out to be the aggressors .I know I keep repeating that, but that actually was THE VERY LOWEST POINT IN BRITISH POLITICAL HISTORY IN MY LIFETIME, but that chap stayed, and the Labour party stuck by him, and Labour voters stuck by him to reelect him as PM a few years later. At least Johnson did actually resign, and his party had the decency to force him to resign, no matter how long they tried to stick it out. 

Oh, I wonder what he told the Queen about the intelligence and how much No. 10 had tweaked it. But you know, proroguing parliament on dodgy grounds to edge it in a street fight in parliament was so much worse, because I've never seen anybody so much as mention what Blair might have discussed with the Queen when he told her we were invading Iraq. 

Politics is a brutal business, which is why at least the pretense of civility is needed to make it work. Once you drop that, you're very close to people saying to hell with it and we'll just fight in the streets for power. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,523]

14 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There's a bit of chicken and egg with Johnson. Opposition gloves were off from the outset when he took office. The rhetoric about 'liar' was ramped up to 11 at the outset without so much as a pretense of civility. 

Politicians have always lied, but people didn't call it lies, they'd say the statement was misleading, or the statement was untrue. Not any more. 

Even Penny Mordaunt got the liar tag thrown at her over a comment about EU vetos 6 years ago. 6 years ago. Nobody made anything of it then, but now, apparently that's a really big deal, in the same country where a party lied to take us into a war where we turned out to be the aggressors .I know I keep repeating that, but that actually was THE VERY LOWEST POINT IN BRITISH POLITICAL HISTORY IN MY LIFETIME, but that chap stayed, and the Labour party stuck by him, and Labour voters stuck by him to reelect him as PM a few years later. 

Oh, I wonder what he told the Queen about the intelligence and how much No. 10 had tweaked it. But you know, proroguing parliament on dodgy grounds to edge it in a street fight in parliament was so much worse. 

Politics is a brutal business, which is why at least the pretense of civility is needed to make it work. Once you drop that, you're very close to people saying to hell with it and we'll just fight in the streets for power. 

That was America's fight and one we should have stayed out of. It was very sad too about Kelly.

I won't compare Blair and Johnson though as I don't think it's straightforward to do so and in a way, a bit pointless. I didn't vote for either of them. I think they can be judged in their own right. History will certainly do so. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by sonyc

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

That was America's fight and one we should have stayed out of. It was very sad too about Kelly.

I won't compare Blair and Johnson though as I don't think it's straightforward to do so and in a way, a bit pointless. I didn't vote for either of them either. I think they can be judged in their own right. History will certainly do so. 

I'm not really comparing them; I am asking where was all the outrage, false or otherwise, back then when it was actually revealed to us what happened, and people stood by and watched the Hutton inquiry castrate the BBC for daring to tell the truth and Blair got rewarded by the public with another landslide. The faux outrage from the Labour benches makes me sick, to be honest. 

I should stress, I'm not using this as whataboutism to excuse Johnson. I'm satisfied that he has gone when that was the right thing, but the double standards behind the absurd vitiriol towards him really do need calling out. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,523]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'm not really comparing them; I am asking where was all the outrage, false or otherwise, back then when it was actually revealed to us what happened, and people stood by and watched the Hutton inquiry castrate the BBC for daring to tell the truth and Blair got rewarded by the public with another landslide. The faux outrage from the Labour benches makes me sick, to be honest. 

Yeh, understand.

I think there's so much injustice in the world, much in the past, much happening right now. I tend these days to try and make my peace with the world, former grievances, injustices, hurts etc. They happened and I can do nothing about them.

It's about that old phrase..." Is this a hill you wish to die on?". If I ask myself that question, the answer is always 'no'. So, I like to look at each new thing with fresh eyes. Like a new blank piece of paper. It is very helpful 🙂

In terms of current events though I will be engaged (as it is happening) because it is part of my present.

I pray soon that Johnson moves into the past. And quickly.

 

[Icecream Snow 761]

Flogging a dead horse here, but what photographer goes "ok, the vibe we're looking for is villain in a Roald Dahl book"

[Herman 9,769]

6 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'm not really comparing them; I am asking where was all the outrage, false or otherwise, back then when it was actually revealed to us what happened, and people stood by and watched the Hutton inquiry castrate the BBC for daring to tell the truth and Blair got rewarded by the public with another landslide. The faux outrage from the Labour benches makes me sick, to be honest. 

I should stress, I'm not using this as whataboutism to excuse Johnson. I'm satisfied that he has gone when that was the right thing, but the double standards behind the absurd vitiriol towards him really do need calling out. 

You are whatabouting all over the place. Tony Blair is hated by a great many people, especially his own side, and what was done regarding Iraq will never be forgotten or forgiven. One small reason I was so against brexit was because of their blatant lies and how our government would quite happily lie to the country's face.

After all that I still find Johnson the most disgusting leader out of the two. Absolutely destroyed our own country just for his own ego. He doesn't deserve any praise for what he has done.

[horsefly 4,301]

7 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'm not really comparing them; I am asking where was all the outrage, false or otherwise, back then when it was actually revealed to us what happened, and people stood by and watched the Hutton inquiry castrate the BBC for daring to tell the truth and Blair got rewarded by the public with another landslide. The faux outrage from the Labour benches makes me sick, to be honest. 

I should stress, I'm not using this as whataboutism to excuse Johnson. I'm satisfied that he has gone when that was the right thing, but the double standards behind the absurd vitiriol towards him really do need calling out. 

Have to disagree with you LYB that the "vitriol" levelled at Johnson is "absurd". It is interesting to note that two Tory establishment figures, Max Hastings and Peter Oborne, long ago unleashed the most vitriolic assessment of Johnson whom they knew personally (as former employers) to be a liar and a fraud, and totally unfit to be an MP, let alone leader and PM. His behaviour subsequent to becoming PM has exceeded all their worst expectations. The man has shown utter contempt for our democracy and the people of the country. He has lied and dissembled in parliament purely to serve his own narcissistic indulgences and to advantage his friends. The debauched culture that he facilitated at number 10, whilst he appeared on TV telling the rest of the population that they must follow the lockdown rules to the letter, will remain a perfect example of just how utterly appalling this man is.

Other leaders may be guilty of searching out evidence to fit their narrative; Johnson is the only one for whom evidence was entirely irrelevant. All that has ever mattered to Johnson is his own will and how he might satisfy it. He is fundamentally a lazy man who will always short-cut his way to getting what he wants, however much that might cost others (something his school tutor pointed out as a mark of his childhood arrogance). Witness his appalling performance as foreign secretary when his lack of preparation for a select committee resulted in him making false claims about Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe, leading to her prolonged imprisonment by the Iranian government on the false pretences that HE provided them. I could, of course, recount pages and pages of examples of this man's egregious behaviour in public office and elsewhere, but we're all very familiar with his record of degeneracy.

The man leaves a wake of destruction and depravity behind him everywhere he has been. It is no coincidence that every civil servant charged with maintaining ethical propriety in government has resigned in despair as Johnson laid waste to the possibility of protecting standards in public office. If he had even a scintilla of ethical introspection he would have known that he should have resisted his narcissistic impulse to lie and cheat his way into positions of such public importance.

It should have been impossible for him to have blown the opportunity provided by an 80 seat majority in parliament; it is a mark of just how degenerate the man is that he managed to do this purely as a result of pursuing his own narcissistic impulses. Even as he announced his resignation, the man couldn't see beyond the self-perception that he was blameless and that it was the unthinking "mass herd" who were responsible for his demise. frankly, I don't think any level of vitriol levelled at this sociopath would ever be excessive as an assessment of the damage he has wrecked on our political culture. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,301]

6 hours ago, Icecream Snow said:

Flogging a dead horse here, but what photographer goes "ok, the vibe we're looking for is villain in a Roald Dahl book"

I think the photographer said "say cheese!" and she said, "It's a disgrace!"

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

You are whatabouting all over the place. Tony Blair is hated by a great many people, especially his own side, and what was done regarding Iraq will never be forgotten or forgiven. One small reason I was so against brexit was because of their blatant lies and how our government would quite happily lie to the country's face.

After all that I still find Johnson the most disgusting leader out of the two. Absolutely destroyed our own country just for his own ego. He doesn't deserve any praise for what he has done.

Oh hated... what a fantastic degree of accountability that is. There are countless perfectly decent politicians who haven't done anything on the scale who get more held to account than that.

2003 the Iraq dossier was published. 2003 the Iraq war was launched. May 2003 the Gilligan report was published. 2003 Blair gave the go ahead to name Kelly if he was revealed as the source. Funnily enough, Kelly's name came out. 2003 the Hutton Whitewash was launched.

2003 the Labour party started calling for his resignation. Oh wait. No they didn't. Labour circled the wagons and protected him, and the whole Labour party rallied to get reelected with him as leader in 2005, to succeed in winning another landslide. But, you know, all this time he was hated... 

At the end of the day, your personal values are that finessed intelligence to parliament and the public to justify a war that we initiated and hanging out the whistleblower out to dry, causing the whistleblower's death in the process, is not as big a deal. You'll use the fact that some people hate him as a fig leaf. Bottom line though, is that Labour stuck by him to get reelected and let him carry on to 2007 after all of that. Labour has no business whatsoever talking about standards when it was the Labour party that summarily killed them. 

I'm actually genuinely shocked that you're 'more disgusted' by Johnson even though, in the end, he has resigned, while Blair carried on in place with the full support of his party. 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

34 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Have to disagree with you LYB that the "vitriol" levelled at Johnson is "absurd". It is interesting to note that two Tory establishment figures, Max Hastings and Peter Oborne, long ago unleashed the most vitriolic assessment of Johnson whom they knew personally (as former employers) to be a liar and a fraud, and totally unfit to be an MP, let alone leader and PM. His behaviour subsequent to becoming PM has exceeded all their worst expectations. The man has shown utter contempt for our democracy and the people of the country. He has lied and dissembled in parliament purely to serve his own narcissistic indulgences and to advantage his friends. The debauched culture that he facilitated at number 10, whilst he appeared on TV telling the rest of the population that they must follow the lockdown rules to the letter, will remain a perfect example of just how utterly appalling this man is.

Other leaders may be guilty of searching out evidence to fit their narrative; Johnson is the only one for whom evidence was entirely irrelevant. All that has ever mattered to Johnson is his own will and how he might satisfy it. He is fundamentally a lazy man who will always short-cut his way to getting what he wants, however much that might cost others (something his school tutor pointed out as a mark of his childhood arrogance). Witness his appalling performance as foreign secretary when his lack of preparation for a select committee resulted in him making false claims about Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe, leading to her prolonged imprisonment by the Iranian government on the false pretences that HE provided them. I could, of course, recount pages and pages of examples of this man's egregious behaviour in public office and elsewhere, but we're all very familiar with his record of degeneracy.

The man leaves a wake of destruction and depravity behind him everywhere he has been. It is no coincidence that every civil servant charged with maintaining ethical propriety in government has resigned in despair as Johnson laid waste to the possibility of protecting standards in public office. If he had even a scintilla of ethical introspection he would have known that he should have resisted his narcissistic impulse to lie and cheat his way into positions of such public importance.

It should have been impossible for him to have blown the opportunity provided by an 80 seat majority in parliament; it is a mark of just how degenerate the man is that he managed to do this purely as a result of pursuing his own narcissistic impulses. Even as he announced his resignation, the man couldn't see beyond the self-perception that he was blameless and that it was the unthinking "mass herd" who were responsible for his demise. frankly, I don't think any level of vitriol levelled at this sociopath would ever be excessive as an assessment of the damage he has wrecked on our political culture. 

I'm not saying it's absurd in terms of genuine standards of what people should aspire to and I think it's right that he has been forced to resign; I'm saying it's absurd in terms of what was accepted in the 2000s. 

My other point is that significant numbers of Conservatives have stood up and condemned Johnson while he has still been in office.

Back in 2003, Robin Cook and Clare Short resigned and that was it. The rest of the party closed ranks, followed him into another GE, and won. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,769]

You'll be going on about Hilary's emails next. How about focusing on what is happening now and not trying to distract attention away from Johnson the scumbag.?! 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

29 minutes ago, Herman said:

You'll be going on about Hilary's emails next. How about focusing on what is happening now and not trying to distract attention away from Johnson the scumbag.?! 

Not trying to distract attention away from Johnson. But Johnson has resigned, and his own party brought it about, albeit reluctantly,  whereas the Labour Party establishment has always refused to condemn Blair, especially when it mattered while he was still in office. There's a legitimate comparison to be drawn pointing out the failure of Labour to hold itself to any standards while it was in power, reluctantly or otherwise. 

I fully supported the Iraq War, based on what we were told at the time. Unlike Brexit, there was no other side to fact check and point out inaccuracies in the argument; we were dependent on government being trustworthy and Blair abused that trust in the worst way possible by not just lying, but recruiting the civil service into producing evidence that was misleading. 

Blair had the full facts, and he chose to enable the US invasion and finessed those facts to make the case appear stronger than it was. Had he presented the intelligence as it was presented to him, there's every reason to believe that we wouldn't have followed the US into Iraq. 

Don't forget we were the only supporters of the US operation. Had we not supported the US, there's every reason to believe that the US might have stopped short of a completely unilateral invasion and international law wouldn't have been so brutally undermined in the long run. 

In conclusion, I'm not interested in which was 'worse'. Johnson's conduct has been unacceptable and was not accepted. Blair's conduct was unacceptable, but was accepted.  I'm interested in the fact Blair never resigned and never lost the support of his party, but that's all water under the bridge for the people who apparently still consider Johnson 'worse' even after he has resigned!

Somewhere along the line, it would be nice to see just the tiniest bit of humility from the Labour party. 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie