Our defence

[Pugin 601]

17 hours ago, sonyc said:

 Now, I'm of the view that a couple of old timers (and read here, I mean experienced not ageing players) are needed for the campaign next year.

 

Totally agree. Hindsight is no sight, but every time I watch us play I think we would be a different proposition if we had a Phillip Billing or Victor Wanyama in the middle of the pitch - not world class players, but central midfield players who are not easily by-passed when they are on the back foot.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,835]

4 minutes ago, Pugin said:

Totally agree. Hindsight is no sight, but every time I watch us play I think we would be a different proposition if we had a Phillip Billing or Victor Wanyama in the middle of the pitch - not world class players, but central midfield players who are not easily by-passed when they are on the back foot.

Phillip Billing is an absolute donkey, and while I don't mind Wanyama.. You are aware Wanyama is on a £70,000 a week salery right?

 

I'm sure he will be willing to reduce that to a £10,000 a week one to come here and get relegated.. 🙃

[Pugin 601]

1 minute ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Phillip Billing is an absolute donkey, and while I don't mind Wanyama.. You are aware Wanyama is on a £70,000 a week salery right?

 

I'm sure he will be willing to reduce that to a £10,000 a week one to come here and get relegated.. 🙃

Tetchy!!

[king canary 7,681]

1 minute ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Phillip Billing is an absolute donkey, and while I don't mind Wanyama.. You are aware Wanyama is on a £70,000 a week salery right?

 

I'm sure he will be willing to reduce that to a £10,000 a week one to come here and get relegated.. 🙃

He isn't a donkey.

He isn't a Farke type slick passer but he does things our current midfield doesn't- for instance he averages 2.4 tackles at 2.2 interceptions a game. Only player who averages more tackles for us is Trybull and nobody makes more interceptions. 

Adding someone who can do that could make a big difference to our midfield.

[Jim Smith 2,349]

On 21/06/2020 at 00:25, paddycanary said:

Having had a chance to mull over yesterday's performance, I've had a look around the forum this evening. There's no doubt that last night was as bad, if not worse, than Villa at home, either Man United game, Wolves and probably worse than any of the handful of the demoralising 0-2 defeats where we looked out of our depth this season. For the majority of the season we have at least been competitive and been in the mix for at least a point.

While the back 4 certainly didn't cover themselves in glory last night, I still don't believe that the main issues lie there. It's unlikely DF wanted to launch Klose straight back into the starting 11. What choice did he have? The other 3 all have potential but are very much learning at the sharp end. What they learn this season will probably benefit other clubs in the not too distant future. I certainly think Aarons will be gone this summer. I think he's the most likely of the 3 defensive "starlets" to become a regular at this level. Godfrey is a bit loose & has to improve his anticipation & positional sense, but he has a bright career in front of him. Jamal has the raw materials to be a solid & reliable attacking-minded full/wing back. 

When the team was announced, I was surprised to see a departure from the tried & trusted DF framework. I assumed that Drmic must have been showing well in training but I raised the proverbial eyebrow at a Trybull & McLean central midfield. Was Tettey not fully fit? Or being kept in reserve if Klose went off injured or for general backup? Or for games still to come? For me, central & defensive midfield is where we have been found wanting all season. I love Tetts but if he's still the best we can put out to compete at the top level, particularly now where we supposedly want to foster & play a passing & possession-based philosophy, then relegation is what we deserve. The cynic might say that the club has been preparing for an inevitable relegation since Villa Park just over a year ago!

Our midfield options have been Tettey, Trybull, McLean, Vrancic & Leitner. Amadou was signed in the hope of being our Kante/Ndidi/Makelele screener and as emergency backup at CB. Rupp arrived in January. Without using too much hindsight, we simply haven't had the personnel to compete in the engine room. Again. For me, this is the primary reason why we end up under the cosh as games develop. Better midfields probe & suss us out. We cough up cheap possession in dangerous areas. We get caught out of position. We're too easy to counter. Frustrated forward players come deeper to help out & try to make something happen - we lose any threat up top. I think in all other areas of the pitch, we have the players of a quality to just about avoid relegation. The defensive injuries all year have made an already hugely difficult challenge virtually impossible. Senior recruitment last summer didn't work out. 

There's no doubt that the news about Hanley, Zimmermann & Byram was morale-crippling. Still, last night was especially hard to stomach. Form had been reasonably good in 2020 before the curtailment and the Cup games were a welcome distraction. For me, whatever small glimmer of hope that remained was extinguished early in the second half. It could be seen on the players' faces & in their body language. The general performance was flat, it lacked belief, it lacked confidence, it lacked composure. The ease Southampton cut through to hit the bar in the first half should have rung a warning bell. Instead, without providing any real pressure or raising the tempo in any serious way, they were permitted to canter through at will in the second half and looked like scoring almost every time. Arguably as shoddy as we've looked at any time this season. We're entitled to question and wonder why it went so awry last night. Hopefully we can raise morale, be competitive and win a couple of games or next season's proposed promotion push will get very hard very quick.

Perhaps a trip to Wembley might help us forget! OTBC!

Apologies for length of post. Just read back there!

This is a vey good post. it was obvious as soon as the team was named that our defence would be exposed by the porous midfield and so it proved to be. Tettey is the only one with the discipline and athleticism to play the holding midfield role at this level and when he's not there teams just run straight through us. This issue is heightened by the fact that we have several midfielders who are not the strongest but who like to take an extra touch and/or to try things and play out of tight areas. What the opposition therefore do is press these players high up the pitch which results in regular turn overs of the ball in midfield. This is not so much of an issue if you have a good shape and enough players back but without Tettey playing and with our fullbacks having often bombed up the pitch to create an overlap we are regularly left with the opposition having 4 on 3 breaks, even quite early on in matches. Saints had one from a corner after about 10 minutes on Friday. It was ridiculous.

The only times we have really held our own this season and kept a good shape have been where we have bolstered the midfield and kept our shape and thus been able to take control of the game with our technically gifted players. Everton away possible the best example of this. A midfield of Tettey, Trybull and Mclean ahead of them gave us a solidity we've not often had. 

Clearly the centre back situation has not helped. one of the reasons we were better balanced at Everton was Zimbo coming back allowed Tettey to return to midfield. But the situation where we had to sacrifice our midfield to cover the defence should not have happened (at least not for as many games as it did) and the fact Farke went back to Trybull and Kenny on Friday (without even having someone capable of tackling in front of them) was worrying.

[ged in the onion bag 857]

Many interesting observations but the primary problem on Friday that really hurt us was the lack of intensity.     Any passing team (we are one of those) relies  on its tempo and has to move the ball quickly.   The defenders set the tone for that as they receive from the keeper.    Take Godfrey for example, if he pings it quickly (rather than laboured) to Klose, it makes his reactions quicker and more concentrated. It makes it more difficult for opponents to close down quickly and give Klose more time to control and find an option.....   this happens across the park, they are all reacting, on toes and with movement it’s hard to defend.    We are capable of it but that dynamic was missing and we got what we deserved.    
Had we done that, we could have argued at least, that they gave it a go!   

[curious yellow 184]

After the Wolves game I was told by one of their fans that our defence is an easy  touch because the full backs play too far forward and Hanley is not very mobile. 

Perhaps we need more defence-minded full backs like Byram as we are having to rely on midfielders too much. 

Although I was impressed by Lewis's challenge late on in the game when he was the only defender. 

[sgncfc 1,259]

On 21/06/2020 at 13:38, dylanisabaddog said:

Our defenders are not the problem in my opinion

The problem is surely that we don't have enough "defenders". Of the four who played against Southampton, only Klose is actually a "defender" - the others are either being played out of position (Godfrey, who is not, and never will be, a centre back; Aarons and Lewis who are there to go forward, and who don't actually stop their opposite numbers causing havoc). 

The system Parke plays requires the likes of Cantwell and Buendia to close down that wide space, and Trybull, Maclean to close down the middle. None of them did that job effectively on Friday which exposed our non-defending defenders once again.

On the occasions that those four in the middle actually do their job we have either won the games or have been unlucky not to. But even in those games we have conceded really soft goals because our back four can't defend very well.

The only other defenders in the squad (Hanley, Byram and Zimmermann) are all injured.

[king canary 7,681]

4 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

Godfrey, who is not, and never will be, a centre back

I do wonder what has to happen for this opinion to die.

If he gets signed by another Premier League team and used as a central defender will that finally do it?

[hogesar 9,776]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I do wonder what has to happen for this opinion to die.

If he gets signed by another Premier League team and used as a central defender will that finally do it?

If he gets signed by another Premier League team I can pretty much guarantee it won't be to play as a holding midfielder!

[Mason 47 1,403]

Godfrey will probably develop into a half decent centre half. 

His ability to pass the ball is at a high level *for a centre back* but most likely would look average at best again the beat young midfielders in the country. His straight line pace is immense *for a centre back* but again, as a defensive midfield you shouldn't have to show that pace if you're any good. Which leads nicely into the next one, his defensive reading of the game is patently 'underdeveloped' and as a lone DM that is probably the position you can't afford not to have that (look at when Tettey isn't in the team).

Our team is geared towards highlighting the best parts of our young assets and shuffle the less desirable traits under the run as much as possible. It's the same reason our youth teams play 4-4-2 and we're constantly churning through young forwards- attacking players sell for the most. 

Isn't necessarily nice to hear, but it's true. If it had been Big Ben injured all season and Hanley/ Zimmermann fit I believe we'd have a few more points.

[sgncfc 1,259]

6 hours ago, king canary said:

I do wonder what has to happen for this opinion to die.

If he gets signed by another Premier League team and used as a central defender will that finally do it?

It's just my opinion, but I'm not sure why it has to die just because lots of people think it too. There might be a reason why lots of people think it; it just might be right.

The funny thing is that his stats don't even support him being used as a centre back - he wins very few headers; he wins very few tackles and he has few interceptions. The man he is marking often scores. At set pieces the space he is marking is frequently where a goal comes from. He does do lots of blocks, mainly because he finds himself out of position. He seldom scores more than a 6 in any game from any commentator yet somehow he has become worth tens of millions and is one of our great youngsters. I just don't get it. I have no idea whether he could be a decent CDM as I've never seen him play there, I just don't think he's a centre back.

I doubt he'll ever get that move - who exactly would he replace, in any team? They all have better options already. He might get a move to a newly promoted team perhaps but why would anyone buy any of our defence when we concede so easily?

My point above is exactly that - he is being asked to do a job he isn't capable of doing. He may well be the best option we have in that position but he isn't good enough to be playing in that position at this level.

[Capt. Pants 4,300]

We never had a decent look at Amadou as a DM in my view. Allowing him to leave in January now means we have limited cover at CB and similar in DM.

Collectively we cannot defend. Not sure if they're not executing Farke's tactics correctly, or if there is a flaw. Either way this is the 3rd season under Farke and we still look flakey at the back.

Back to the midfield - the McLean/Trybull combo is a real shocker, think I read on here it has not yielded a single point this seaaon. Never again please.

Much to ponder before next season.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Capt. Pants

[Aggy 766]

My problem with Godfrey at centre half is that he just doesn’t have the natural defensive instinct. How many times have we seen him caught two yards out of position, or stepping up at the wrong time or not really sure of what’s around him. He doesn’t hold his position very well. 

I had hoped that with more game time and experience this would improve, but it doesn’t appear it is doing. I think if he ended up at a really top side he’d do alright - a side where they need defenders for footballing skills more than defending almost. But is he quite good enough for Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal? I’m not so sure. And I’m not convinced any mid table prem side or lower half prem side will see him as the sort of defender who will help keep them up.

He’s also now though missed two or three of the most important seasons of his career as a midfielder if that’s what he wants to do, so unlikely he’ll now go back. I said it months and months ago - I think he will make a decent championship defender, possibly lower half of the prem. I do think if he had focussed on central midfield he could have gone a bit further. But all ifs and buts and too late now to know.

 

[Clint 221]

I agree with Capt Pants in that I’m still unsure what happened with Amadou.

Clearly he was identified as the defensive shield and physicality for the midfield. I don’t buy into the fact his passing game was not upto our standard as our standards are actually pretty low (Friday being a prime example of this).

His job in the team would not be the pivot or to spray 30 yard passes about. His job would be as mentioned above and just keep it simple with the ball, allowing a Leitner or a Vrancic to keep the ball moving forward.

It appears we’ve moved away from a midfield of players who are specialists in their own role but more limited in others, in order to play people who are average at everything.

I’d rather have a midfield combination of two 7/10s in their own specialism working together, than two 4/10s at everything.

 

[Bonzo 198]

Whilst our back four are mostly a work in progress and prone to the occasional mistake inside the box although undoubtedly talented for some reason our defensive weaknesses start further forward at Centre/ Defensive Mid.

To be honest I like all of our players who play in this area and I believe that we have the talent here to be OK in the Championship.

The fact that we are still experimenting in this area clearly shows that we are short of a dominant centre mid or maybe two. Our record in this area is patchy at best and is at the heart of our vulnerability. With all players fit it would be Tetty and Vrancic for me with Vrancic only shading it over McLean because of his greater propensity to score or create something. Yet none of these players are box to box mids who are capable of physically dominating the game. 

Indeed we are a different team when Tetty is fit and playing. This almost seems like a blind spot for Farke. Firstly he didn't get Tetty and wanted to play 4141 then he came around to the vulnerability  of leaving so much space both in front of his back 4. 

The Premiership is a different level physically and it is this aspect of the game that has exposed us. Some of the difference is skills and tactic nous but much of it is sheer physicality, speed and athleticism at 5 and 6 we have been out run and out-muscled all year long. Southampton were fitter and stronger than us- although scoring a goal or two is always a good way to lift the energy levels. 

Maybe our issues in this area is a money thing or maybe we need a formation change towards something that suits the players that we do have. 

I'm glad that Farke played 442 in the Southampton game. Were it not for a couple of fumbled chances we could have been in that game right to the close. Also I can see the logic of moving Godfrey into the midfield because he has the physicality and passing to provide a better screen but that isn't going to happen particularly with our shortage of fit CBs.

Rupp is another option. Sitti has been signed for next season and we also have the return of Lewis Thompson and the possible signing of Bali Mumba so a fix is in progress. If we do come back up we need to sign a world class CM. At least we do if we can't develop one for ourselves.