canarydan23 4,060 Posted December 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said: Millennial, actually. It's now more a frame of mind than a generation bracket. And the idea that a six year old could "listen" to swear words on a message board is a pretty boomerish one. I thought a millennial would appreciate using the Internet to vent rather than subjecting it to his son. You are right though, it is a terrible shame he couldn't fully enjoy a 2-2 draw with Arsenal, owing to the fact that issues which have nothing to do with sport have prevented a good point that won't be thought of in a few years time from being what it should have been (and would have been, with a touch more competency and/or justice) a second historic victory this season that would still be mentioned years down the line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JF 694 Posted December 1, 2019 Main decisions Penalty. Correct call, awful from Zimmermann and there was no push on him retake. Correct call. Aaron’s clearly encroaching and is first to the ball McClean yellow card. Incorrect, Var should have overturned that for a red. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fuzzar 1,702 Posted December 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, JF said: Main decisions Penalty. Correct call, awful from Zimmermann and there was no push on him retake. Correct call. Aaron’s clearly encroaching and is first to the ball McClean yellow card. Incorrect, Var should have overturned that for a red. That's pretty much how I saw it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,676 Posted December 1, 2019 I'll just embed my tweet as it still sums up my emotions. The actual decisions today werent terrible but its awfully inconsistent compared to what we've seen in previous weeks. How 2 arsenal players werent booked for cynical fouls is beyond me. Why the retake wasnt taken again I have no idea. VAR creating problems that never previously existed. Its farcical. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hillhead 114 Posted December 1, 2019 1 minute ago, hogesar said: Why the retake wasnt taken again I have no idea. Why do you think it should have been? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,676 Posted December 1, 2019 Just now, Hillhead said: Why do you think it should have been? Because their was encroachment (again) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hillhead 114 Posted December 1, 2019 Just now, hogesar said: Because their was encroachment (again) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
glory.win or die. 270 Posted December 1, 2019 1 hour ago, canarydan23 said: Normally I'd have come away pleased with a point v Arsenal; yes they're in bad form but they're still 8th in the Prem with a transfer and wage budget beaten only by 4 or 5 teams in the land. But it's sickening tonight. Zimmermann was pushed prior to the handball, yes a few players were marginally in the box, but it was not obvious enough to be spotted at the time and b*llocks was VAR bought in to stop the heinous crime of encroachment. Aubamayang handballed in the build up to the corner that their second goal came from; pre-var it is given but now they wait and as they didn't score in that phase it is allowed to slide. But you can bet your b*llocks to a barn dance the ref blows or lino flags of it was a Norwich hand that touches the ball. VAR was bought in because refs were top sh*t, yet they've put it in the hands of the people who have made it necessary. It needs to be triggered by coaches or captains and operated by people who've never been given a whistle before. It's actually made things easier for big clubs, I'd hoped it would level the playing field. Total bulls*it, I didn't watch a sporting spectacle today. I haven't seen the replay, but from where I sat the initial free kick given which led to the penalty instant looked harsh.May be proved wrong but it looked like mcclean nicked the ball off the arsenal player fairly to me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,821 Posted December 1, 2019 21 minutes ago, JF said: Main decisions Penalty. Correct call, awful from Zimmermann and there was no push on him retake. Correct call. Aaron’s clearly encroaching and is first to the ball McClean yellow card. Incorrect, Var should have overturned that for a red. I'd say that the ref got all three correct. McLean's tackle was an 'orange' for me, and not quite enough to be an obvious error. Had the referee given a red for it though I doubt VAR would've overturned it for the same reason. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr Greenthumb 749 Posted December 1, 2019 46 minutes ago, duke63 said: the only thing that was wrong was that Chambers was still on the pitch at 90 minutes. He committed two or three fouls that warranted a second yellow but the ref bottled them all. I thought that, when he cleaned out the man in the 81st minute from behind, I thought that he should have gone! But then the standard of reffing is so bad, I actually wasn’t surprised 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,536 Posted December 1, 2019 I think there's a massive difference between watching it all unfold on TV and supporting your team in the stadium. I have every sympathy with Dan. I too was frustrated by the retake. Impossible to enjoy the save because you're waiting for VAR. Impossible to properly celebrate a goal because you are waiting to see if there's VAR. Football is fast becoming an armchair sport but as Dan said we are paying £500 a season to, as I am beginning to see it, basically provide atmosphere for the tv audience. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canarydan23 4,060 Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) It's total and utter ****. There have been five missed penalties this season. Three we obviously know well. Tettey encroaching And again, with Lewis joining him. Leitner in the box. Maginal, but RuLeS aRe RuLeS. **** ref. Pogba v Wolves in August? Retake. Erm, no. Rashford misses again, James encroaching. Retake? Nope, man that ref must be rubbish. And how lucky did Liverpool get against Leicester? Last minute penalty to win it, but rules are rules and encroachment is clear... Retake? I'll give you a clue, the answer isn't yes. And Liverpool take all three points. For sure, apply the letter of the law absolutely rigidly and every single penalty miss this season should have been retaken, as should Milner's against Leicester. But it never happens and it shouldn't happen. But presumably you think the referees were incorrect in all the above instances but correct today, right? Furthermore, if you are applying the letter of the law to that, then you do it for all facets of the game... ...and therefore grabbing on to the arm of a defender as he attempts to head clear a freekick is a foul, even moreso when the other arm is pushing against the same player's midriff. Edited December 1, 2019 by canarydan23 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hillhead 114 Posted December 1, 2019 1 minute ago, nutty nigel said: I think there's a massive difference between watching it all unfold on TV and supporting your team in the stadium. I have every sympathy with Dan. I too was frustrated by the retake. Impossible to enjoy the save because you're waiting for VAR. Impossible to properly celebrate a goal because you are waiting to see if there's VAR. Football is fast becoming an armchair sport but as Dan said we are paying £500 a season to, as I am beginning to see it, basically provide atmosphere for the tv audience. Absolutely. Same thing just happened in the Leicester Everton game where those of us watching on sky know what's going long before those in the stadium do. I'm 600 miles away from Norwich and regularly have friends/family asking me to confirm things for them. In fact I was even able to text my mate during the man United game telling him "no way will this be a pen" while they were thinking about the James/Godfrey challengebefore somehow getting that one wrong ! It's not right. All needs to be on the screen at the very least. Possibly the communication between ref and stockley park made audible too. Need transparency 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surfer 1,547 Posted December 1, 2019 We didn’t lose. So chill everyone. Two games unbeaten, three points behind Everton, and four behind Villa and Brighton. Southampton up next and Everton face Liverpool, probably without a manager. We can get out of this if we play like we did today. Defence “sorted”, attack OK, and the midfield finally settling down. OTBC! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,024 Posted December 1, 2019 1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said: In the interests of balance, another referee or another VAR could easily have given McLean a red card for his tackle on Guendouzi late in the first half or a second penalty against Zimmermann when he blocked a left wing cross with his arm. For the record, I think the referee got both decisions correct, but on another day we could've had those go against us. But that isn't really balance is it. VAR is supposed to get it right. To say on a different day it might be different means it is worthless. Goal lIne tech has worked wonderfully but VAR is not fit for purpose. Sound of nail being hit squarely on head......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,676 Posted December 1, 2019 12 minutes ago, canarydan23 said: It's total and utter ****. There have been five missed penalties this season. Three we obviously know well. Tettey encroaching And again, with Lewis joining him. Leitner in the box. Maginal, but RuLeS aRe RuLeS. **** ref. Pogba v Wolves in August? Retake. Erm, no. Rashford misses again, James encroaching. Retake? Nope, man that ref must be rubbish. And how lucky did Liverpool get against Leicester? Last minute penalty to win it, but rules are rules and encroachment is clear... Retake? I'll give you a clue, the answer isn't yes. And Liverpool take all three points. For sure, apply the letter of the law absolutely rigidly and every single penalty miss this season should have been retaken, as should Milner's against Leicester. But it never happens and it shouldn't happen. But presumably you think the referees were incorrect in all the above instances but correct today, right? Furthermore, if you are applying the letter of the law to that, then you do it for all facets of the game... ...and therefore grabbing on to the arm of a defender as he attempts to head clear a freekick is a foul, even moreso when the other arm is pushing against the same player's midriff. Great post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JF 694 Posted December 1, 2019 The still frame of Zimmermann doesn’t show the incident unfold. I’d love to be able to defend him but it’s a penalty all day long I’m afraid Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canarydan23 4,060 Posted December 1, 2019 1 minute ago, hogesar said: Great post. And it doesn't even touch on the fact that Chambers should have been booked twice, there was a handball on the build up to their goal scoring corner and as someone else said, the free kick before the "handball" was questionable. And McLean was correctly booked. Game is even more dead than it is if you're giving a red for that. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187 Posted December 1, 2019 Final day of the season..... Deep in injury time..... A goal goes in which results in a team qualifying for Europe or avoiding relegation. It goes to VAR and someone in a studio spends 5 minutes to decide the future of that team. Was there contact from the defender? Did the ball flick an arm, and was the arm in a natural position? Hawkeye works quite well in cricket, but football is trying to use it to make subjective decisions Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canarydan23 4,060 Posted December 1, 2019 1 minute ago, JF said: The still frame of Zimmermann doesn’t show the incident unfold. I’d love to be able to defend him but it’s a penalty all day long I’m afraid Does it show the Arsenal playing holding onto Zimmermann's arm? Is holding on to the arm of a player against the rules? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted December 1, 2019 15 minutes ago, canarydan23 said: It's total and utter ****. There have been five missed penalties this season. Three we obviously know well. Tettey encroaching And again, with Lewis joining him. Leitner in the box. Maginal, but RuLeS aRe RuLeS. **** ref. Pogba v Wolves in August? Retake. Erm, no. Rashford misses again, James encroaching. Retake? Nope, man that ref must be rubbish. And how lucky did Liverpool get against Leicester? Last minute penalty to win it, but rules are rules and encroachment is clear... Retake? I'll give you a clue, the answer isn't yes. And Liverpool take all three points. For sure, apply the letter of the law absolutely rigidly and every single penalty miss this season should have been retaken, as should Milner's against Leicester. But it never happens and it shouldn't happen. But presumably you think the referees were incorrect in all the above instances but correct today, right? Furthermore, if you are applying the letter of the law to that, then you do it for all facets of the game... ...and therefore grabbing on to the arm of a defender as he attempts to head clear a freekick is a foul, even moreso when the other arm is pushing against the same player's midriff. Nice one. Even within the game today the way VAR was announced to fans was inconsistent, total shambles. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JF 694 Posted December 1, 2019 Just now, canarydan23 said: Does it show the Arsenal playing holding onto Zimmermann's arm? Is holding on to the arm of a player against the rules? There is nothing in it, it’s a clear handball by Zimmermann and there is no foul on him. I’d love to sit here and say it was the wrong call but it wasn’t. Zimmermann was simply to blame Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hillhead 114 Posted December 1, 2019 I wouldn't expect many of those penalties to be retaken. You're not going to force a retake of a scored penalty because a defender encroached. On the other hand where I would be confused would be a situation like todays. If instead of clearing the ball Aaron's had swung at it and missed and an encroaching arsenal player had scored the rebound a freekick would have been given to us. As it happened Aaron's clears and we have to face another. I'm not sold on VAR but I'm not sure it got alot wrong today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canarydan23 4,060 Posted December 1, 2019 1 minute ago, JF said: There is nothing in it, it’s a clear handball by Zimmermann and there is no foul on him. I’d love to sit here and say it was the wrong call but it wasn’t. Zimmermann was simply to blame Are you standing for election? A politician's dodge of a question. You clearly are a stickler for the rules given your opinion on the encroachment (so presumably you think the refs in the other matches with missed penalties made mistakes?) so why do you think that Zimmermann wasn't fouled, when you've been presented with evidence that prior to the handball, he clearly had his arm held by the player? I admit a still does not show the whole incident, it omits to show the push with Luiz's other arm on Zimmermann's torso, but it does objectively show his arm being grabbed, which is as much an infringement as encroachment is it not? Or have I missed a rule update? Is it open season on limb grabbing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canarydan23 4,060 Posted December 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, Hillhead said: I wouldn't expect many of those penalties to be retaken. You're not going to force a retake of a scored penalty because a defender encroached. On the other hand where I would be confused would be a situation like todays. If instead of clearing the ball Aaron's had swung at it and missed and an encroaching arsenal player had scored the rebound a freekick would have been given to us. As it happened Aaron's clears and we have to face another. I'm not sold on VAR but I'm not sure it got alot wrong today. They were all missed penalties bar Milner's, where an attacker encroached. So why would you not want them retaken but think var got it right today? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JF 694 Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, canarydan23 said: Are you standing for election? A politician's dodge of a question. You clearly are a stickler for the rules given your opinion on the encroachment (so presumably you think the refs in the other matches with missed penalties made mistakes?) so why do you think that Zimmermann wasn't fouled, when you've been presented with evidence that prior to the handball, he clearly had his arm held by the player? I admit a still does not show the whole incident, it omits to show the push with Luiz's other arm on Zimmermann's torso, but it does objectively show his arm being grabbed, which is as much an infringement as encroachment is it not? Or have I missed a rule update? Is it open season on limb grabbing? He isn’t holding onto Zimmermanns arm. There is simply no foul there. The still picture has no relevance to the incident. Zimmermanns arm is coming up at that point and handles the ball. I’d love to be able to defend him but there isn’t even the slightest indication of a foul in the incident. Have you seen the incident in live pictures or just the still image? As for the encroachment it’s harsh after the save but again is the correct call as Aaron’s is first to the ball, had Krul tipped it wide I would hope it wouldn’t have been a retake Edited December 1, 2019 by JF Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,676 Posted December 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, Hillhead said: I wouldn't expect many of those penalties to be retaken. You're not going to force a retake of a scored penalty because a defender encroached. On the other hand where I would be confused would be a situation like todays. If instead of clearing the ball Aaron's had swung at it and missed and an encroaching arsenal player had scored the rebound a freekick would have been given to us. As it happened Aaron's clears and we have to face another. I'm not sold on VAR but I'm not sure it got alot wrong today. You say you're not going to enforce a retake but we either play by the rules dictated by the FA or we dont. From their website: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hillhead 114 Posted December 1, 2019 Just now, hogesar said: You say you're not going to enforce a retake but we either play by the rules dictated by the FA or we dont. From their website: Those rules are saying the goal should stand. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted December 1, 2019 I think we are talking about sendings off and bookings for some pretty tame stuff. MacLeans wasn't as bad as made out. It looked worse because as he spun his trailing leg took out the man. And Chambers were just little fouls after the booking and hardly worth a booking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canarydan23 4,060 Posted December 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, JF said: He isn’t holding onto Zimmermanns arm. There is simply no foul there. The still picture has no relevance to the incident. Zimmermanns arm is coming up at that point and handles the ball. I’d love to be able to defend him but there isn’t even the slightest indication of a foul in the incident. Have you seen the incident in live pictures or just the still image? I saw it at the game and took the still from video footage. It was, according to the letter of the law, absolutely a foul. Luiz makes significantly more contact with Zimmermann's arm and midriff than Zimmermann's hand makes with the ball. A foul is a foul and Zimmermann was fouled. I would have thought someone who felt the encroachment laws should be so rigorously applied would have the same approach for fouls. Do you think the refs got it wrong by not demanding all the other missed penalties this season were retaken? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites