The Positive Brexit Thread

[Van wink 2,994]

37 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Was he due to be interviewd tonight? I dont thinks so.

No because he won't agree to a date. And surely it is plain enough to see why. Neill would make mincemeat of him regarding the Russia report, the NHS on the table with the US, and phrases such as letterboxes, picaninnies, water melons etc, let alone his policies.

I asked as Surfer had commented about a BBC schedule change tonight but as far as I was aware there was nothing scheduled for this evening with BJ.

He has some vunerability thats for sure, to be honest I think the "NHS on the table" point is a pretty weak one, inflamatory language would get a hit but that really has been done to death. AN uses a very forensic approach with well based evidence, its the sort of approach that BJ will have enormous problems BS his way around.

[Jools 584]

PaddyPower Majority Odds (Previous in Brackets):

• • Tories: 4/9 (4/9)
  • No overall: 15/8 (15/8)
  • Labour: 20/1 (25/1)
  • Lib Dems: 250/1 (250/1)

 

Gardiner currently being sliced and diced by Neil 😀

[Jools 584]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

....and it is not just big pharma or the NHS up for sale. Everyone's favourite type of chicken, CFC, and food standards  in there as well.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/corbyn-us-document-more-than-nhs-to-worry-about/

Please observe, sfb:

 

Guido thought he’d factcheck Corbyn’s claims on what the unredacted documents say – and it turns out there was quite a lot of contortion on Corbyn’s part to interpret the documents as menacingly as he presented them. There’s already a lot of push back from the Department for Trade pointing out the documents were not from trade discussions where things were agreed, rather they were from the working groups in which both the UK and US set out their starting positions for any future trade talks.

Medicine Pricing:

Corbyn: “The US and the UK have already finished the discussion on lengthening patents for medicines, longer patents can mean only one thing: more expensive drugs”

Document references to patent law:

 

 

Corbyn also specifically pointed to page 51 of the second document, claiming it says “patent issues… [around] NHS access to generic drugs will be a key consideration. Deliberately missing key words and changing the meaning of what was discussed. The paragraph says the UK is in difficult territory here because of disagreements over this area.

The NHS Being ‘On the Table’

Corbyn said:

“Labour has been warning that NHS services will also be on the table in trade talks for a sellout deal with Trump… the documents show Trump was right.” “These documents make clear that for the US – to quote page 41 of the third meeting report – “everything is included unless something is specifically excluded”. They want “total market access as the baseline assumption of a trade negotiation”

“But surely you can’t believe that British officials would demand the NHS be excluded. Apparently not. In fact, on behalf of the Conservative Government officials reassured their counterparts that the US should expect the UK to be a liberalising influence, and that together they could fly the green flag for service liberalisation.”

Page 41 of the third meeting report – a 77 page report that mentions the NHS once – does include the phrase “everything is included unless something is specifically excluded”, in the context of the US explaining their approach to free trade

 

t certainly wasn’t a concession from the UK negotiating team. As the Department for Trade makes clear, no agreements could have been made as these meetings were working groups to set out each others’ stalls  – not negotiations.

For working groups discussing trade, the NHS is barely mentioned in these documents. Including all 451 pages, the NHS is mentioned 4 times, once regarding defending the NHS’s access to cheaper drugs for patients (to spell it out – that’s a good thing). One sentence even spells out the US were “Sensitive to the particular sensitivities with the health sector in the UK”:

 

Within an hour, the key facets of Corbyn’s big announcement have fallen flat…

UPDATE: The Conservatives have come out with a response that doesn’t mince its words:

“Jeremy Corbyn is getting desperate and is out-and-out lying to the public about what these documents contain. He has always believed in conspiracy theories – which is why he has failed to crack down on the scourge of antisemitism in his party. This is the man that has caused huge offence by blaming an imaginary ‘Zionist lobby’ for society’s ills and now he has decided to smear UK officials too.

“People should not believe a word that he says – this stunt is simply a smokescreen for the fact that he has no plan for Brexit and that he has been forced to admit that he wants to increase taxes for millions of families.

“As we have consistently made clear: the NHS will not be on the table in any future trade deal and the price that the NHS pays for drugs will not be on the table. This sort of conspiracy theory fuelled nonsense is not befitting of the leader of a major political party

November 27, 2019 at 12:10 pm

[Jools 584]

The BAME Officer for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport Labour Party, Baz Ahmed, has boasted on Twitter of ‘receiving’ postal votes from local voters.  He has even tweeted pictures of unsealed ballots voting for the Labour Party. Electoral Commission rules are clear that handling someone else’s ballot paper is in breach of the code.

Those two X’s are identical…

Electoral Commission rules clearly say:

“You should not touch or handle anyone else’s ballot paper.”

“It is absolutely clear that anyone acting on behalf of a party or campaign should not solicit the collection of any ballot paper.”

“If you are asked to take the completed ballot paper, you should ensure that the voter has sealed it first and then post it or take it to a polling station or office of the Returning Officer immediately, without interfering in any way with the package.”

“If you are with a voter when they complete their ballot paper, remember they should complete it in secret. Equally, you should ensure that the voter seals the envelopes personally and immediately.”

One of the ballots Ahmed tweeted included personal details of a local voter, which Guido has obscured.

 

Somebody should really tell him he has committed multiple offences under PPERA. Plymouth Labour will have some serious questions to answer…

UPDATE: Luke Pollard has told Guido that he didn’t know this was going on, saying “If that was happening it would be illegal.”

Tory MP Tom Tugendhat has commented “This is a police matter not a joke and must be investigated immediately.”

November 27, 2019 at 1:39 pm

[Jools 584]

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Herman said:

This answers it. The BBC haven't even arranged a date. I'm sorry, but this does properly stink now  🤣

 

 

                                                                                                 🤣

Edited November 27, 2019 by Jools
Don't cry, Hermione

[Van wink 2,994]

On now, take your mind off Brexit

[Van wink 2,994]

MRP one of the few polls that called the last election

[Herman 9,779]

A bit worrying that. Time for a real effort to get tactical voting going. 5 years of the Conservatives is not what anyone needs. 

[Surfer 1,547]

Especially Conservatives unhinged from reality. We know what that looks like from over this side of the pond. 

[Mr Angry 1,563]

7 minutes ago, Herman said:

A bit worrying that. Time for a real effort to get tactical voting going. 5 years of increasing Child Poverty and record numbers relying on Food Banks is not what anyone needs. 

Fixed it for you Herman.

[Jools 584]

36 minutes ago, Van wink said:

MRP one of the few polls that called the last election

 

Looks like the majority of people are seeing through the horse-sh*t and lies of the Lefties 👍

Peston, currently into full Labour activist mode on the box 🤡👞

[Jools 584]

28 minutes ago, Herman said:

Time for a real effort to get tactical voting going. 

What are you personally going to do?

[SwindonCanary 455]

https://news.sky.com/story/general-election-boris-johnson-set-for-majority-of-68-seats-as-labour-collapses-poll-11871956

[Jools 584]

The problem for Labour now is their big NHS conspiracy theory stunt (which has seriously backfired) was intended for a day or two before election day as their big final gotcha, but they had to bring it forward to distract from the Neil car crash ...

Not sure what else they have left now.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

A bit worrying that. Time for a real effort to get tactical voting going. 5 years of the Conservatives is not what anyone needs. 

You better get used to it. Corbyn has single-handedly destroyed the Labour Party.  The biggest support for the Conservatives is coming from the working-class vote and they'll be in power for the next twenty-five years at least when the Brexit benefits start working their way through the economy. 

[Herman 9,779]

Sigh, there are no Brexit benefits. 

 

Except for US big pharma, US big food, US big tech and other corporations that will be given a free reign over our country. We'll done for selling us out you brexitty chumps. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Herman

[canarydan23 4,060]

9 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

You better get used to it. Corbyn has single-handedly destroyed the Labour Party.  The biggest support for the Conservatives is coming from the working-class vote and they'll be in power for the next twenty-five years at least when the Brexit benefits start working their way through the economy. 

Oh bless, someone so hoodwinked that they still actually believe there is such a thing as a Brexit benefit.

I blame your parents. I think if I raised any of my children to be so feeble and weak minded I'd consider it among the greatest possible failing.

[ricardo 7,395]

If Ma Beckett hadn't nominated Corbyn things might have looked entirely different.

[Hairy Canary 704]

I'm not sure this is done and dusted at all. There have been two polls now showing the Tory lead is at 7% which is very close to hung parliament territory. Still two weeks to go and a couple more points narrowing and it is going to be very close. Clearly the Conservatives have a clear lead but talk of 60 to 80 overall majority is wide of the mark.

 

IMO 😉

[Mr Angry 1,563]

9 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

You better get used to it. Corbyn has single-handedly destroyed the Labour Party.  The biggest support for the Conservatives is coming from the working-class vote and they'll be in power for the next twenty-five years at least when the Brexit benefits start working their way through the economy. 

This really does add another level to the phrase "Turkeys voting for Christmas". If people are still willing to vote for them even though households in full time employment are having to feed their families through handouts the whole country really is in a sorry state. Hopefully Boris will continue telling enough porkies that eventually enough people will realise that he can't be trusted.

 

[Mr Angry 1,563]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

Sigh, there are no Brexit benefits. 

 

Except for US big pharma, US big food, US big tech and other corporations that will be given a free reign over our country. We'll done for selling us out you brexitty chumps. 

Sound familiar? "Heartland" by "The The"

Beneath the old iron bridges, across the Victorian parks and all the frightened people running home before dark
Past the saturday morning cinema that lies crumbling to the ground
And the **** stinking shopping centre in the new side of town
I've come to smell the seasons change and watch the city as the sun goes down again
Here comes another winter of long shadows and high hopes
Here comes another winter, waitin' for utopia, waitin' for hell to freeze over

This is the land, where nothing changes
The land of red buses and blue blooded babies
This is the place, where pensioners are raped and the hearts are being cut from the welfare state
Let the poor drink the milk, while the rich eat the honey
Let the bums count their blessings, while they count the money

So many people, can't express what's on their minds, nobody knows them and nobody ever will

Until their backs are broken and their dreams are stolen
And they can't get what they want, then they're gonna get angry
Well it ain't written in the papers but it's written on the walls, he way this country is divided to fall
So the cranes are moving on the skyline, tryin' to knock down this town
But the stains on the heartland can never be removed from this country that's sick, sad, and confused

Here comes another winter, of long shadows and high hopes
Here comes another winter, waitin' for utopia, waitin' for hell to freeze over

The ammunition's being passed (This is the 51st state), and the lord's been praised
But the wars on the televisions will never be explained
All the bankers getting' sweaty (This is the 51st state) beneath their white collars
As the pound in our pocket turns into a dollar
This is the 51st state of the you. S. A.
This is the 51st state of the you. S. A.
This is the 51st state of the you. S. A.
This is the 51st state of the you. S. A. (you. S. A.)
This is the 51st state of the you. S. A.
This is the 51st state of the you. S. A.
This is the 51st state of the you. S. A.
This is the 51st state, state, state, state, state, state               

 

[BigFish 1,988]

9 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

..... the Brexit benefits start working their way through the economy. 

Comedy gold, if it wasn't so sad

[ron obvious 1,505]

22 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

This really does add another level to the phrase "Turkeys voting for Christmas". If people are still willing to vote for them even though households in full time employment are having to feed their families through handouts the whole country really is in a sorry state. Hopefully Boris will continue telling enough porkies that eventually enough people will realise that he can't be trusted.

 

I think food banks will become the norm (at least until the environment collapses, whether through human agency or otherwise) in the same way that people are no longer ashamed & humiliated to receive unemployment benefit.

The employment problem transcends politics; it's a problem generated by technology.

There are not enough 'proper' jobs (ones you would pay someone else to do) to go round. Marx was right, but for reasons he couldn't foresee. I saw it first hand in the electronics industry, where my level of job was disappearing rapidly due to automation. In the end all that's needed is a few very clever people & some clever machines that they designed.

The net result is that the wealth lies in the hands of very few (the owners of the machines - not the very clever people) who supply the general population. They have been taken out of the work process. Their only function is to consume the goods, therefore there is no utility in their starving, but that's about all.

I suspect western society (certainly the UK) will regard the post war period to have been something of a golden age; unionisation obtained decent wages for people because they were essential to production. Most of us are now becoming redundant.

Edited November 28, 2019 by ron obvious

[Herman 9,779]

From Mindbomb? 

[Hairy Canary 704]

1 minute ago, Herman said:

From Mindbomb? 

From Infected I think. Great band - Soul Mining is my favorite. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

I think The Boss got it right with "Death to My Hometown". It was about the 2008 financial crisis but seems pertinent to what the Tories and Brexiteers (the orchestrators, not the zombied, ignorant squawkers bleating their support for it on here) have in mind...

Well, no cannon ball did fly, no rifles cut us down
No bombs fell from the sky, no blood soaked the ground
No powder flash blinded the eye
No deathly thunder sounded
But just as sure as the hand of God
They brought death to my hometown
They brought death to my hometown

Now, no shells ripped the evening sky
No cities burning down
No army stormed the shores for which we’d die
No dictators were crowned
I awoke on a quiet night, I never heard a sound
The marauders raided in the dark
And brought death to my hometown
They brought death to my hometown

They destroyed our families, factories
And they took our homes
They left our bodies on the plains
The vultures picked our bones

So, listen up my sonny boy, be ready when they come
For they’ll be returning sure as the rising sun
Now get yourself a song to sing
And sing it ’til you’re done
Sing it hard and sing it well
Send the robber barons straight to hell
The greedy thieves who came around
And ate the flesh of everything they found
Whose crimes have gone unpunished now
Who walk the streets as free men now

They brought death to our hometown, boys
Death to our hometown
Death to our hometown, boys
Death to our hometown

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

19 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

I think food banks will become the norm (at least until the environment collapses, whether through human agency or otherwise) in the same way that people are no longer ashamed & humiliated to receive unemployment benefit.

The employment problem transcends politics; it's a problem generated by technology.

There are not enough 'proper' jobs (ones you would pay someone else to do) to go round. Marx was right, but for reasons he couldn't foresee. I saw it first hand in the electronics industry, where my level of job was disappearing rapidly due to automation. In the end all that's needed is a few very clever people & some clever machines that they designed.

The net result is that the wealth lies in the hands of very few (the owners of the machines - not the very clever people) who supply the general population. They have been taken out of the work process. Their only function is to consume the goods, therefore there is no utility in their starving, but that's about all.

I suspect western society (certainly the UK) will regard the post war period to have been something of a golden age; unionisation obtained decent wages for people because they were essential to production. Most of us are now becoming redundant.

How do explain the UK is currently in full employment at all levels of society, with a skills shortage in highly technical areas? 

Think back to the time you joined the work force, Ron. There was no mobile phone technology at that time. Now it is a huge industry that affects everything and employs millions globally. So long as the West continues with a market-based economy there will continue to be new industries and new technologies.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Nothing worse than a condescending Tory. Let us Labour Party members worry about Corbyn. You worry about Johnson when he lets you down in 6 months time.

As President Trump intensifies his trade war with China, and as factories slow in major industrial nations, world commerce is deteriorating rapidly, a perilous development that threatens the health of the global economy.In Europe, trade is being stymied by fear that Britain may be on the verge of a tumultuous exit from the European Union, absent a deal governing future commerce across the English Channel.

“Certainly, you can make a strong case that the risks of a global recession have increased the last few months,” said Ben May, a global economist at Oxford Economics, a research institution in London that pegs the likelihood of that outcome next year at 30 percent. “There’s a combination of indicators for weakening global growth. And that means we are more pessimistic about where world trade should trend.”

Don't start blaming Corbyn when some of you lose your jobs.

And if as the polls might suggest and Labour will be defeated then look forward to a woman as leader of the party.

[ron obvious 1,505]

1 minute ago, Rock The Boat said:

How do explain the UK is currently in full employment at all levels of society, with a skills shortage in highly technical areas? 

Think back to the time you joined the work force, Ron. There was no mobile phone technology at that time. Now it is a huge industry that affects everything and employs millions globally. So long as the West continues with a market-based economy there will continue to be new industries and new technologies.

The full employment is because of the creation of non-jobs. These occur everywhere, but as I said in a previous post these jobs are more prevalent in large organisations. From my observations the larger the organisation the less efficient they become; empire building & general 'hiding' opportunities (always hold a piece of paper when you're wandering around) rapidly increase.

There are larger scale opportunities as well.  I was employed in one of the financial genius Arnie Weinstock's organisations. It was my first contract. I sat around for 6 weeks reading articles on close to carrier noise while they decided what to do with me.

I subsequently discovered Mr. Weinstock made his money from entering into cost plus defence contracts with the government. The more people he employed the more he got.

My sole reason for being employed was to increase his profits. Was that a productive use of my labour? I think not.

 

Mobile phones arrived during my career. The firm's production line shut down while I was there. Basically they couldn't compete with China. (Incidentally I think China will run into trouble soon because even the cheapest labour cannot compete with machines).

You are quite right that new technologies will evolve. However whether they will produce 'industries' in the old sense of the word is unlikely I think. There are skill shortages, but I believe they will be increasingly niche as the skill level of machines increases.

 

Having said all that there are undoubtedly huge opportunities to build green infrastructure, as well as all the improvements we need to make to our houses etc.

Then there's space travel: there's a space launch facility planned for somewhere in the north of Scotland I believe? fantastic!

So perhaps there's reason for optimism after all. But I think there'll have to be a huge culture change, a willingness to continually adapt & retrain for most of us in our working lives that runs against our natural desire for security & stability. There'll be fewer & fewer jobs for life.

Technology changes everything. Except human nature.

 

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

9 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

And if as the polls might suggest and Labour will be defeated then look forward to a woman as leader of the party.

Got anyone in mind?