The Positive Brexit Thread

[Barbe bleu 832]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

Weirdly, most of the heavily EU rejoin camp come across as quite old-school thatcherite in their focus on trade and economics to the exclusion of everything else. Brexit wasn't anything to do with economics, and economic arguments alone won't get us back in the EU.

Worth highlighting i feel

[Yellow Fever 3,830]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You'll note that 'Norway plus' recquires membership of EFTA (as mentioned in the Wiki), which was ruled out by Norway (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/norwegian-politicians-reject-uks-norway-plus-brexit-plan). The EU didn't 'offer' this either. It was just an idea put forward by those keen to keep us in the single market and customs union.

There is a growing list of 'promises' being offered by rejoin that could finish up being cast as 'rejoiner lies' that could finish up making EU membership every bit as toxic politically as last time.

Who knew that British exceptionalism so ridiculed when exhibited by leavers was so prevalent among rejoiners as well?

John Curtice is talking of fairly marginal changes in the overall outlook. His main point is that they're going to have to be careful to keep their largely pro-EU support happy, but that still doesn't dismiss the fact that they'll still need to keep their anti-EU supporters happy. The Lib Dems were heavily punished in the South West where they had been previously very successful for their aggressively anti-Brexit position.

The other clock that's ticking is the extent to which everyone adapts to life post-Brexit and when actual benefits of leaving do start to come online that start to make this look all less attractive and EU influence declines.

1972: EEC GDP 990bn$ Global GDP: $3.8tn (EEC was 26% of global GDP)

2021: EU GDP 17.18tn$ Global GDP. 97tn% (EU was 18% of global GD, even including all the extra members since 1972)

That's just in terms of total nominal GDP, never mind the horrific challenges the organisation has with its own internal paralysis on issues like asylum seekers. The world will be a very different place in 10 years. Tick tock.

In all this, you need to remember that 58% now say they'd vote to rejoin after all they've seen is negative news for a few years about the economic losses of leaving the EU. You can guarantee that there will be an aggressive negative campaign scrutinising rejoin ferociously if the issue was broached. You'd also finish up with the UK losing further inward investment as the world hedges its bets waiting to see what happens.

Weirdly, most of the heavily EU rejoin camp come across as quite old-school thatcherite in their focus on trade and economics to the exclusion of everything else. Brexit wasn't anything to do with economics, and economic arguments alone won't get us back in the EU.

Are you fighting a Brexit campaign already?

The whole point is that there is a move back towards the EU in the polls. If it is even stronger in 5 years (election after next) then it becomes a live political issue (as per Curtis) and thoughts and preliminary discussions about options can start. Until then all such options are rather moot. Plenty of time for both parties to flesh out those options as views stabilize - it will be a dance. 

Lastly - just for BB - 

I rather suspect its exactly the non trade/economic issues that will swing in behind the younger members wanting to be a full part of the European family again that will actually swing it into full rejoin. Such things as free movement for jobs etc. After-all - many more of the old boomers will be by then, or have departed taking with them their rather 20th century post war mind set. The future as always belongs to the young and brexit appears to have largely been a tantrum or reaction of the reactionary old!

Edited June 23, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Barbe bleu 832]

31 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

Lastly - just for BB - 

I rather suspect its exactly the non trade/economic issues that will swing in behind the younger members wanting to be a full part of the European family again that will actually swing it into full rejoin. Such things as free movement for jobs etc. After-all - many more of the old boomers will be by then, or have departed taking with them their rather 20th century post war mind set. The future as always belongs to the young and brexit appears to have largely been a tantrum or reaction of the reactionary old!

You're obsessed with the war and the post war generation!

You might be right about the desire to be European ans how this might drive a desire to join the EU.  I suspect though that lyb had it about right when he says that what we are most likely to see is a slow-moving together over the next 25 or so years as the new world order and new tech changes whole societies.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,594]

1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

You seem to be under the misapprehension that EU membership is either/or. We can still trade with rest of the world while in the EU.

I think it's more that the rejoiners seem to be under the misapprehension we can only trade with the EU if we're in the EU. Leaving the EU hasn't ended all trade with the EU. It has just made it a bit more of a drag. As the chocolatier said the other day on Brexit for the perplexed, exporting to Australia is now easier than exporting to France. But we're not in a customs union or single market with Australia and don't need to be in one either.

We can improve trade with the EU without rejoining or giving up other opportunities. Here's some examples of actual positive developments post-Brexit

Services are far more important for us and our services are going great guns. They're at record levels. UK architects are designing buildings on the continent. They don't need to be in the EU to do that. We've lost 7,000 jobs because of the loss of EU financial passporting, and gained more jobs from EU companies setting up in London to take advantage of being outside of EU rules. All the predictions said London would be devastated by leaving the EU, but it's going the other way. (sourced from Chris Hayward, City of London Corporation, remain campaigner)

We're just in the process of signing a memorandum of understanding with the EU over financial services improving cooperation on that score.

UK courts are doing great. The London commercial courts are getting 60% of their business from the rest of the world, using them to settle disputes.

Even UK service exports to the EU are almost up to pre-covid levels, in spite of the new barriers. 

Incidentally, India has opened up its courts to international lawyers on a reciprocity basis, which we're taking opportunity of. The EU's not taking it up, so that's one area already that would be a loss if we rejoin the EU.

And then what if we actually do get a decent trade agreement with India? Might not happen, but if it does, that will be massive and it will be another thing that we'll lose by rejoining the EU.

As far as goods are concerned, the EU really does need us more than we need them. This trade friction gives non-EU companies an opportunity to win the EU's share of the UK's import market; it's in their interests as well as ours to continue to work with us to improve our bilateral agreements without us having to rejoin the EU. The car industry in the UK and the continent both want closer links. The politicians on both sides are going to acquiesce  on that in the end, just like there's now positive movement on financial services.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,594]

48 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Are you fighting a Brexit campaign already?

The whole point is that there is a move back towards the EU in the polls. If it is even stronger in 5 years (election after next) then it becomes a live political issue (as per Curtis) and thoughts and preliminary discussions about options can start. Until then all such options are rather moot. Plenty of time for both parties to flesh out those options as views stabilize - it will be a dance. 

Lastly - just for BB - 

I rather suspect its exactly the non trade/economic issues that will swing in behind the younger members wanting to be a full part of the European family again that will actually swing it into full rejoin. Such things as free movement for jobs etc. After-all - many more of the old boomers will be by then, or have departed taking with them their rather 20th century post war mind set. The future as always belongs to the young and brexit appears to have largely been a tantrum or reaction of the reactionary old!

Not at all. Just giving you a flavour of what it will be like if a referendum was to happen. 🙂

Most British youngsters are rubbish at languages and not very motivated towards them. https://theconversation.com/uk-students-are-abandoning-language-learning-so-were-looking-for-a-more-creative-approach-202078

The truth is that most of British youngsters will get more excited about opportunities to study, travel, or work in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand than they will on the continent. In a way, I regret that myself as someone who's a lover of European culture, but there you go. We're an island nation with an island mentality that's generally not interested in foreign languages.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,192]

59 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Not at all. Just giving you a flavour of what it will be like if a referendum was to happen. 🙂

Most British youngsters are rubbish at languages and not very motivated towards them. https://theconversation.com/uk-students-are-abandoning-language-learning-so-were-looking-for-a-more-creative-approach-202078

The truth is that most of British youngsters will get more excited about opportunities to study, travel, or work in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand than they will on the continent. In a way, I regret that myself as someone who's a lover of European culture, but there you go. We're an island nation with an island mentality that's generally not interested in foreign languages.

English is widely spoken in Europe. No need to learn the local language in some places. Which is disappointing 😔

[Yellow Fever 3,830]

16 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

You're obsessed with the war and the post war generation!

You might be right about the desire to be European ans how this might drive a desire to join the EU.  I suspect though that lyb had it about right when he says that what we are most likely to see is a slow-moving together over the next 25 or so years as the new world order and new tech changes whole societies.

No BB. There has to be a reason why my boomer generation is largely Brexit. I only have to look back at how the country was then, how I felt in the '75 referendum (why do we need them?), to see what lies at the root of such thoughts. We'd not really come to terms with our non-superpower, post empire status. Alternatively it's also part and parcel of less education.

Anyway - the best hope it seems to me of making a success of where we are now without significant further EU alignment is hoping SKS can make good on his word to make the UK the fastest growing G7 nation (and not as in some statistical quirk). The Tory party is now fully washed up and in it current guise obsolete.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Herman 9,823]

Farage has had his Coutts bank account stopped. Specualtions are not necessary but may be fun.🤡

 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,192]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Farage has had his Coutts bank account stopped. Specualtions are not necessary but may be fun.🤡

 

He's lucky that he's actually allowed to leave the UK. Many are not, primarily due to Farage himself.

Try running a UK bank account from abroad, it's not easy.

To quote John Cooper Clarke "They can't find a good word for you. But I can. Twât"

Edited June 29, 2023 by How I Wrote Elastic Man

[littleyellowbirdie 2,594]

53 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

He's lucky that he's actually allowed to leave the UK. Many are not, primarily due to Farage himself.

Try running a UK bank account from abroad, it's not easy.

To quote John Cooper Clarke "They can't find a good word for you. But I can. Twât"

Are you sure you're really comfortable about private companies being permitted to discriminate against individuals based on political beliefs? What happens when it's your own views that are considered threatening to the institutional powers that be?

Like him or not, you're basically cheerleading plutocracy here because you happen to like what it's doing; the private sector shouldn't be entitled to sanction individuals arbitrarily according to its own whim.

Edited June 29, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,823]

They're not doing that. They've stopped his account because there is something dodgy going on.

[Yellow Fever 3,830]

8 hours ago, Herman said:

They're not doing that. They've stopped his account because there is something dodgy going on.

Something they (and the other banks) don't like. 

[A Load of Squit 5,221]

9 hours ago, Herman said:

They're not doing that. They've stopped his account because there is something dodgy going on.

A perfectly reasonable order (£2m per bottle) for Farage Gin was received from  a Mr Plutin, Reed Square, Mosscow.

 

[Herman 9,823]

26 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Something they (and the other banks) don't like. 

Banks are pretty much amoral and will take most people's money. It's when provable illegality rears up, they act. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,987]

11 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Are you sure you're really comfortable about private companies being permitted to discriminate against individuals based on political beliefs? What happens when it's your own views that are considered threatening to the institutional powers that be?

Like him or not, you're basically cheerleading plutocracy here because you happen to like what it's doing; the private sector shouldn't be entitled to sanction individuals arbitrarily according to its own whim.

I think you need to do a bit more research. Our banks deal with some very dubious people. But when those people are politically exposed there are very stringent rules. Coutts have decided that Farage falls short and so have others. They are protecting themselves and Farage has gone on the attack knowing full well that the banks can't share the facts behind their decision. 

If our banks wanted to discriminate against Brexit and the people behind it they'd lose quite a lot of customers wouldn't they? 

It's pointless speculating what he has or may have done but for the sake of fun I'll have a go. He and Aaron Banks broke electoral rules during the run up to the referendum and were fined. Banks has had business connections with Russia in Africa. Farage is also friendly with Trump and in addition has worked and been paid well by Russian State TV. 

Nothing much to worry about there. I wonder what it could possibly be. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

+He hasn't been in the limelight for a week so needs something to portray the remain camp as the devils.

[Herman 9,823]

I assume moving lots of roubles about raises plenty of red flags in the banking sector. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,594]

6 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I think you need to do a bit more research. Our banks deal with some very dubious people. But when those people are politically exposed there are very stringent rules. Coutts have decided that Farage falls short and so have others. They are protecting themselves and Farage has gone on the attack knowing full well that the banks can't share the facts behind their decision. 

If our banks wanted to discriminate against Brexit and the people behind it they'd lose quite a lot of customers wouldn't they? 

It's pointless speculating what he has or may have done but for the sake of fun I'll have a go. He and Aaron Banks broke electoral rules during the run up to the referendum and were fined. Banks has had business connections with Russia in Africa. Farage is also friendly with Trump and in addition has worked and been paid well by Russian State TV. 

Nothing much to worry about there. I wonder what it could possibly be. 

Not sure what you think anyone might research. It's a decision by a private company; there's no way of knowing the basis of the decision and no accountability. That's what wrong with the whole PEP principle.

If there was actual evidence of legal wrongdoing then it's another matter where the courts would be involved.

Anyway, just entered the UK for the first time since early 2016. Must be honest I'm fascinated to see whether it's as bad as everyone makes out...

[TheGunnShow 5,995]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Not sure what you think anyone might research. It's a decision by a private company; there's no way of knowing the basis of the decision and no accountability. That's what wrong with the whole PEP principle.

If there was actual evidence of legal wrongdoing then it's another matter where the courts would be involved.

Anyway, just entered the UK for the first time since early 2016. Must be honest I'm fascinated to see whether it's as bad as everyone makes out...

I don't know whereabouts you are but I'll say that I applaud the guy who did this...

[Herman 9,823]

 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,192]

20 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Are you sure you're really comfortable about private companies being permitted to discriminate against individuals based on political beliefs? What happens when it's your own views that are considered threatening to the institutional powers that be?

Like him or not, you're basically cheerleading plutocracy here because you happen to like what it's doing; the private sector shouldn't be entitled to sanction individuals arbitrarily according to its own whim.

I don't believe that private companies should discriminate against anyone on any beliefs they have, subject to no laws being broken. 

I'm not cheerleading what has happened, and neither like nor dislike what may be happening.

It's Farage's claim he might be "forced"  out of the UK which amuses me, given that he spent a lot of time, money and energy devoted to making it much harder for others to do so.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,192]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Anyway, just entered the UK for the first time since early 2016. Must be honest I'm fascinated to see whether it's as bad as everyone makes out...

My experience, after witnessing melt downs on various social media and news platforms, is that most people seem to get along socially as well as they did before. Obviously my experiences are limited.

Also obviously, I've no recent experience of mortgages, utility bills, etc. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

I don't believe that private companies should discriminate against anyone on any beliefs they have, subject to no laws being broken. 

I'm not cheerleading what has happened, and neither like nor dislike what may be happening.

It's Farage's claim he might be "forced"  out of the UK which amuses me, given that he spent a lot of time, money and energy devoted to making it much harder for others to do so.

It would funny if he moved to France.

[Barbe bleu 832]

2 hours ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

My experience, after witnessing melt downs on various social media and news platforms, is that most people seem to get along socially as well as they did before. Obviously my experiences are limited.

Also obviously, I've no recent experience of mortgages, utility bills, etc. 

That got me thinking.   On paper amongst the most momentous 7 years in post war history but I'm not sure I've noticed much change.

Is history something you generally notice only when you look back rather than at the time?

[Herman 9,823]

Other than the fact nothing works, everything is stupidly expensive and everyone hates each other, I've noticed no change since brexit.

[dylanisabaddog 4,987]

16 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Not sure what you think anyone might research. It's a decision by a private company; there's no way of knowing the basis of the decision and no accountability. That's what wrong with the whole PEP principle.

If there was actual evidence of legal wrongdoing then it's another matter where the courts would be involved.

Anyway, just entered the UK for the first time since early 2016. Must be honest I'm fascinated to see whether it's as bad as everyone makes out...

Farage can use the Financial Ombudsman Service if he wishes or he could ask his MP to look into the matter. The FOS has the power to overturn a bank's decision. To suggest there is no accountability is wrong. 

Farage has claimed that Coutts along with 6 other institutions have refused to accept his business. This has happened 7 years after the referendum. 

I've no idea what he's done but he does have recourse as set out above or if he is still not happy he could make all the relevant documents and correspondence available for us to consider. 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,192]

Reykjavik, today 🤣

(From Facebook, not my photos)

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,594]

On 30/06/2023 at 18:13, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

I don't believe that private companies should discriminate against anyone on any beliefs they have, subject to no laws being broken. 

I'm not cheerleading what has happened, and neither like nor dislike what may be happening.

It's Farage's claim he might be "forced"  out of the UK which amuses me, given that he spent a lot of time, money and energy devoted to making it much harder for others to do so.

'And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.'

This trip to the UK I've used absolutely zero cash. Every single transaction has been contactless. In France, they actually have legislation to ensure every French citizen can have a bank account.

Is it possible to function properly in UK society without a bank account? If it is, I don't see how. That puts the issue in the territory of an extralegal attack on people's basic liberties.

 

 

[ricardo 7,401]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

'And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.'

This trip to the UK I've used absolutely zero cash. Every single transaction has been contactless. In France, they actually have legislation to ensure every French citizen can have a bank account.

Is it possible to function properly in UK society without a bank account? If it is, I don't see how. That puts the issue in the territory of an extralegal attack on people's basic liberties.

 

 

First they came first Nigel, and I said nothing, because I thought he was a bit of a ****.😉

[Yellow Fever 3,830]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

'And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.'

This trip to the UK I've used absolutely zero cash. Every single transaction has been contactless. In France, they actually have legislation to ensure every French citizen can have a bank account.

Is it possible to function properly in UK society without a bank account? If it is, I don't see how. That puts the issue in the territory of an extralegal attack on people's basic liberties.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

First they came first Nigel, and I said nothing, because I thought he was a bit of a ****.😉

Didn't I read he was offered a much simpler RBS/NatW account but refused in some of the tweets? Somebody can check.