The Positive Brexit Thread

[Yellow Fever 3,856]

42 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Talking to my son recently - we were discussing his work and the impacts on it etc...and we agreed that UK life and society is in a bad place right now. Even considering the experiences of such a young person as him. Customers at his place of work are struggling with their health, some are freezing in their homes, the postal services are very poor, there are staff shortages everywhere to the extent it is hard to get many domestic services. The pandemic is still about (today I'm reading that the health service is falling over in many areas of the country - if you've had a stroke for example, you've got to get driven to hospital rather than use an ambulance, in fact almost any emergency short of expecting to die there and then).

We talked about food banks themselves struggling with their energy bills and he knows of charities who are worrying and laying off staff. The pinch point will be March for many. Some have had fixed energy deals which run out.

Quickly, we rallied off the other things you just can't avoid in the news - Railways and transport problems? Tick. Industrial unrest? Tick (in fact, has there been a worse time for strikes?). Sewage from rivers? Tick. Record profits for utility companies? Tick. Scandals and political disharmony? War in Ukraine and all the uncertainty? Yes.

And we had not even talked about Brexit!

So... chaos - yes! I just wonder whether people have had enough of Brexit? It is such a toxic thing that even those who voted for it have gone quiet. It sits quietly under everything. The rotten apple at the bottom of the barrel.

I just hope CM that someone starts up a more constructive debate about Europe, something which can unite, bring the country together. If you recall on this very forum the months leading up to the vote split posters in two. It was such a divisive thing. I can't recall anything more divisive in my lifetime. Like a terrible divorce and complicated relationships, it's always hard later to pick up the pieces.

That's why Starmer is staying clear. It needs time (unfortunately) but I do believe he is starting to say the right things. Many Brexiters who voted were of an older cohort and their voices will fade. In the same vein I've always been impressed really that those older voices you hear from WW2 are far more nuanced, about what war and peace meant to them. So not everyone who is is of advanced age is ulra conservative. In fact, many talk about the need for having love for one another. As an aside, therefore, it's a real treat watching those vox pops of former war heroes. It makes me realise not everyone is reactionary or fixed. But maybe horrible young people remain and become horrible older people? 

Anyway, any positive post war 'narrative' that formerly existed was weak enough that by 2016, Farage et al was deploying his particular propaganda to try and influence public opinion. A subverting of the post war message?  There again, the immigration issue (fear of foreigners)  has always been there hasn't it. Multiculturalism did make some inroads. 

Anyway, I'm just getting off on a tangent now...(I reckon somehow I'm influenced by reading about Terry Hall this morning. RIP. He thought it was all s*** too). 

Got to look ahead and hope this is a nadir we are in (and that we have reached it and don't have further to fall) and that the only way is up and more constructive...that 2023 / 2024 will mark a reset.

I think it was anecdotally quite clear that the generation (now all but gone) that actually fought for real values in WW2 as opposed to us boomers that basked in their reflected glory were actually far more pro-Europe than us that came afterwards.

Sadly we grew up in a 'how we won the war' media myth without for most any real experience of war or being bombed (c.f. Ukraine).

By way for an anecdote - had a German girlfriend in my 20s - father limped - shot in the leg in WW2 as a teenager defending his city  - was in the H i t l e r Youth. Didn't actually have any realistic choice about that! We got along just fine. The past is the past and old mortal enemies can forgive and heal. Even see the later rapport between Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley.

Some people as you note are just irreformable horrible people though of any age.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[Yellow Fever 3,856]

7 minutes ago, horsefly said:

The current electoral system is entirely irrelevant to the Brexit issue. It was a coalition government that legislated for the Brexit referendum, and it was LibDem Party policy for many years prior to that to have such a referendum on EU membership.

Agree HF but a PR elected government would of almost cetainly then of implemented softer and more sane Brexit.

[horsefly 4,326]

7 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Agree HF but a PR elected government would of almost cetainly then of implemented softer and more sane Brexit.

You would hope so YF. Unless of course the PR system had resulted in a Tory/UKIP coalition. After all the EU elections saw a tidal wave of UKIP MEPs elected under a proportional system. But let's not get distracted by that speculation. The reality is that the electoral system is irrelevant to the Brexit shi*t storm the country must somehow now resolve.

Edited December 20, 2022 by horsefly

[sonyc 5,542]

34 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think it was anecdotally quite clear that the generation (now all but gone) that actually fought for real values in WW2 as opposed to us boomers that basked in their reflected glory were actually far more pro-Europe than us that came afterwards.

Sadly we grew up in a 'how we won the war' media myth without for most any real experience of war or being bombed (c.f. Ukraine).

By way for an anecdote - had a German girlfriend in my 20s - father limped - shot in the leg in WW2 as a teenager defending his city  - was in the H i t l e r Youth. Didn't actually have any realistic choice about that! We got along just fine. The past is the past and old mortal enemies can forgive and heal. Even see the later rapport between Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley.

Some people as you note are just irreformable horrible people though of any age.

Good points YF. Agree very much. I had a German exchange friend in my early 20s. Her father was very keen on Anglo-German good relations. Every night he would ply me with his beer (in his beer cellar) and he would get everything translated, jokes and all, his daughter. The war was well and truly over. Lovely bloke.

Yet, there was a funny incident.... it was in the early days of Thatcher and we were on a long train journey back from Köln and in the part of the open carriage we were was a Glaswegian bloke. Such a strong accent. Brigitte couldn't understand him but he kept saying how the countryside was "flat, so flat" (read that in a Scottish accent) and that "we British boys had flattened them". Not such a problem you might think because not many, even those who could speak and understand English, would have recognised many of his words...  but this bloke decided to do the sound effects of bombs raining down! You can imagine the faces all around. Outrage.

It was pure Fawlty Towers. I was embarrassed at the time.

This bloke told me he had done what Norman Tebitt had told him to do. No jobs in Glasgow so he had gone to Bochum etc to do work on building sites. Speaking of TV comedy, Auf Weidersen Pet came about a year later after my experience.

A slightly sad anecdote I must add (the pathos) but it couldn't even be repeated now! Not without lots of paperwork.

Freedom of movement ( especially within Europe) was such a positive thing even given the views of my Scottish acquiantance. A good thing economically. A shame really that some people wanted it stopped. FOM works both ways of course. It isn't just about keeping out foreigners. We've always needed immigration. We just needed a good balance and to have invested better in our own indigenous skillsets - so that we as a country could always be competitive. Instead we've wanted to get the last penny from everything and any profit or surplus has gone to shareholders. 

Learnt a lot from my two lots of exchanges in France and Germany as a youngster and then even more as a working adult. Erasmus was a decent programme too. My eldest benefitted. Not heard how the replacement is working.

[Yellow Fever 3,856]

57 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Good points YF. Agree very much. I had a German exchange friend in my early 20s. Her father was very keen on Anglo-German good relations. Every night he would ply me with his beer (in his beer cellar) and he would get everything translated, jokes and all, his daughter. The war was well and truly over. Lovely bloke.

Yet, there was a funny incident.... it was in the early days of Thatcher and we were on a long train journey back from Köln and in the part of the open carriage we were was a Glaswegian bloke. Such a strong accent. Brigitte couldn't understand him but he kept saying how the countryside was "flat, so flat" (read that in a Scottish accent) and that "we British boys had flattened them". Not such a problem you might think because not many, even those who could speak and understand English, would have recognised many of his words...  but this bloke decided to do the sound effects of bombs raining down! You can imagine the faces all around. Outrage.

It was pure Fawlty Towers. I was embarrassed at the time.

This bloke told me he had done what Norman Tebitt had told him to do. No jobs in Glasgow so he had gone to Bochum etc to do work on building sites. Speaking of TV comedy, Auf Weidersen Pet came about a year later after my experience.

A slightly sad anecdote I must add (the pathos) but it couldn't even be repeated now! Not without lots of paperwork.

Freedom of movement ( especially within Europe) was such a positive thing even given the views of my Scottish acquiantance. A good thing economically. A shame really that some people wanted it stopped. FOM works both ways of course. It isn't just about keeping out foreigners. We've always needed immigration. We just needed a good balance and to have invested better in our own indigenous skillsets - so that we as a country could always be competitive. Instead we've wanted to get the last penny from everything and any profit or surplus has gone to shareholders. 

Learnt a lot from my two lots of exchanges in France and Germany as a youngster and then even more as a working adult. Erasmus was a decent programme too. My eldest benefitted. Not heard how the replacement is working.

Yes - I used to like all my European friends (Stephanie especially😉 - the later wife knows) and recall all the old European jokes about their neighbours in fun (and between the northern and southern Germans given Stephanie lived in Hildesheim but came from the Black Forest area).  We'd all poke fun and take it on the cheek in return at each other - the Swedes a better class of German etc. The rivalry was actually limited to football! Talking about the older generations - I even now recall my old Mum speaking to her with some surprise and slight awe - exotic girlfriend - my mum who was bombed out but with no animosity at all.    

[horsefly 4,326]

4 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think it was anecdotally quite clear that the generation (now all but gone) that actually fought for real values in WW2 as opposed to us boomers that basked in their reflected glory were actually far more pro-Europe than us that came afterwards.

Sadly we grew up in a 'how we won the war' media myth without for most any real experience of war or being bombed (c.f. Ukraine).

By way for an anecdote - had a German girlfriend in my 20s - father limped - shot in the leg in WW2 as a teenager defending his city  - was in the H i t l e r Youth. Didn't actually have any realistic choice about that! We got along just fine. The past is the past and old mortal enemies can forgive and heal. Even see the later rapport between Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley.

Some people as you note are just irreformable horrible people though of any age.

 

3 hours ago, sonyc said:

Good points YF. Agree very much. I had a German exchange friend in my early 20s. Her father was very keen on Anglo-German good relations. Every night he would ply me with his beer (in his beer cellar) and he would get everything translated, jokes and all, his daughter. The war was well and truly over. Lovely bloke.

Yet, there was a funny incident.... it was in the early days of Thatcher and we were on a long train journey back from Köln and in the part of the open carriage we were was a Glaswegian bloke. Such a strong accent. Brigitte couldn't understand him but he kept saying how the countryside was "flat, so flat" (read that in a Scottish accent) and that "we British boys had flattened them". Not such a problem you might think because not many, even those who could speak and understand English, would have recognised many of his words...  but this bloke decided to do the sound effects of bombs raining down! You can imagine the faces all around. Outrage.

It was pure Fawlty Towers. I was embarrassed at the time.

This bloke told me he had done what Norman Tebitt had told him to do. No jobs in Glasgow so he had gone to Bochum etc to do work on building sites. Speaking of TV comedy, Auf Weidersen Pet came about a year later after my experience.

A slightly sad anecdote I must add (the pathos) but it couldn't even be repeated now! Not without lots of paperwork.

Freedom of movement ( especially within Europe) was such a positive thing even given the views of my Scottish acquiantance. A good thing economically. A shame really that some people wanted it stopped. FOM works both ways of course. It isn't just about keeping out foreigners. We've always needed immigration. We just needed a good balance and to have invested better in our own indigenous skillsets - so that we as a country could always be competitive. Instead we've wanted to get the last penny from everything and any profit or surplus has gone to shareholders. 

Learnt a lot from my two lots of exchanges in France and Germany as a youngster and then even more as a working adult. Erasmus was a decent programme too. My eldest benefitted. Not heard how the replacement is working.

My mother and her sisters and friends lived in rural Norfolk through the war. They encountered many prisoners of war that were sent to work on the farms. They formed friendships that not only lasted a lifetime, involving visits to each other's countries, but friendships that were passed on to the next generations in those families. 

[horsefly 4,326]

23 hours ago, horsefly said:

So, not only did the NHS not see a single pound of the mythical £350m a week that was supposed to be heading its way post Brexit, it has now been shown by the Nuffield Trust (as reputable a source as you can possibly get on health issues) that Brexit has directly caused the NHS tremendous damage:

Brexit damaging NHS with staff and medicine shortages, study finds

Brexit is damaging the NHS and driving pressure on overstretched services, a study by healthcare experts has found. A new report by think tank the Nuffield Trust warns that Britain’s departure from the EU has worsened recruitment shortages while pushing up the price of some medicines and making some more difficult to obtain. The report also states that Brexit could worsen health inequality. 

The findings of the study are a far cry from the promises of the Leave campaign, which promoted the idea that leaving the EU would secure more funds for the health service.

Mark Dayan, Brexit programme lead at the Nuffield Trust, said it was “undeniable that the NHS has faced three of the most difficult years in its history” thanks to the pandemic and inflation. But he also said “the effects of Brexit appear to have added to the severe challenges and problems the NHS currently faces”.

“The economic hit of Brexit, combined with the worst cost of living crisis for a generation, is reducing living standards, creating additional need for health and care. Meanwhile a slowdown in EU and EFTA [referring to countries within the European Free Trade Association] recruitment is making shortages of urgently needed careworkers, dentists, and specialist doctors even worse,” he said.

“The UK has also apparently taken the worst of a period of medicines shortages which has swept across Europe. The fall in the value of sterling around the EU referendum, and the trade barriers erected since, are probably major factors in our unusually consistent and long-standing problems supplying vital products.”

The researchers say the NHS has struggled to recruit dentists, social care workers, and specialist doctors such as anaesthetists and heart and lung specialists since the EU referendum.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-damaging-nhs-with-staff-and-medicine-shortages-study-finds/ar-AA15qJ6n?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=35b28d3af67345a7956d6956fec4305c

 

Despite the government claims that there are no shortages of medical supplies I now have personal evidence to the contrary. Just popped into the GP dispensary to pick up a prescription that was meant to be available on/after December 9th. Neither of the drugs had arrived.

[horsefly 4,326]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/brexit-has-reduced-uk-tax-receipts-by-40-billion-a-year-340864/

Brexit has reduced UK tax receipts by £40 billion a year

Now what was the size of that hole the Tories blasted into our economy?

We could have given the nurses and paramedics their justified pay rises and still had billions to put into NHS improvement. Perhaps they should put this figure onto the side of a bus, although, of course, you won't be able to recruit a driver to drive it now that Brexit has lost us willing EU citizens to do such work.

[Well b back 3,317]

Did they understand their oven ready deal. It’s falling apart, if we weren’t lied to they clearly didn’t understand U.K. law.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64053696

[Well b back 3,317]

The thoughts from business on Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64052849

[Herman 9,868]

6 hours ago, Well b back said:

The thoughts from business on Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64052849

One small, crappy, lazy quote from the government is all they can be bothered with now. About bloody time. 

[horsefly 4,326]

6 hours ago, Well b back said:

The thoughts from business on Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64052849

Yep! I have friends with a small business who have simply given up any attempt to trade with Europe post Brexit. They've taken a big hit to their finances because of the loss of trade, but would have taken an even bigger hit if they had attempted to continue. I have no doubt their story is replicated across the country. The depressing irony of a Tory government pleading it doesn't have the money to fund pay rises for NHS workers while presiding over a "fantastic" "oven ready" Brexit deal that has cost the country billions in tax revenue is not remotely funny. On the other hand my Dutch friends are delighted to see so many of our UK businesses relocate to their shores and fill their national coffers instead. Stupid is as stupid does!

[sonyc 5,542]

More evidence (as if needed I suppose). Perhaps soon the voices will become loud enough.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/21/brexit-deal-not-boosted-business-uk-firms?

 

 

The BCC’s director general, Shevaun Haviland, said: “Businesses feel they are banging their heads against a brick wall as nothing has been done to help them, almost two years after the TCA [trade and cooperation agreement] was first agreed. The longer the current problems go unchecked, the more EU traders go elsewhere, and the more damage is done.”

 

#ovenready

[A Load of Squit 5,254]

 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,856]

8 hours ago, Well b back said:

The thoughts from business on Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64052849

I can concur with a lot of that. Also

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/21/brexit-deal-not-boosted-business-uk-firms

UKCA marking is just the latest 'cut your nose off to spite your face' absurdity.

I can only assume that the so called 'deal' was written by people without the slightest understanding of economics or trade on the UK side.

Brexit - A lesson for the world in stupidity.

[Herman 9,868]

GDP shrinking too. 

[horsefly 4,326]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/uk-suffers-worst-growth-in-g7-worries-over-christmas-food-prices-surge-business-live/ar-AA15ykRS?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=8084fcf438e64c9ea56c9fe2adc04801

Utterly damning figures. All our competitors have grown in comparison to their 2019 figures. We have declined. I wonder what the variable might be that explains our anomalous position!

[Yellow Fever 3,856]

Arh - the UK increasingly looking like small fish in a big pond. Getting squeezed out.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/23/car-industry-leaders-warn-uk-could-lose-out-to-us-subsidy-scheme-inflation-reduction-act

[horsefly 4,326]

57 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Arh - the UK increasingly looking like small fish in a big pond. Getting squeezed out.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/23/car-industry-leaders-warn-uk-could-lose-out-to-us-subsidy-scheme-inflation-reduction-act

You think we merit being called a fish, very bold YF. Water flea seems a more appropriate comparison.

[A Load of Squit 5,254]

Brexit was an act of self harm. The Brexit tw@ts persuaded people, through lies, to impose sanctions on themselves, they should never be forgiven.

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by A Load of Squit

[Yellow Fever 3,856]

This just about sums it all up.

The stupidity, the irony and the reality.

Brexit means no British manufacturer able to build UK government’s ministerial cars (msn.com)

Edited December 24, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[littleyellowbirdie 2,617]

On 20/12/2022 at 12:09, horsefly said:

The current electoral system is entirely irrelevant to the Brexit issue. It was a coalition government that legislated for the Brexit referendum, and it was LibDem Party policy for many years prior to that to have such a referendum on EU membership.

This statement shows you to be either ignorant or a liar. The EU referendum bill was introduced on 27th May, 2015 by Philip Hammond after the General election of 7th May, 2015, that returned a majority Conservative government led by David Cameron.

[horsefly 4,326]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

This statement shows you to be either ignorant or a liar. The EU referendum bill was introduced on 27th May, 2015 by Philip Hammond after the General election of 7th May, 2015, that returned a majority Conservative government led by David Cameron.

Unlike you I'm happy to accept a correction rather than stubbornly refuse to correct any falsehood irrespective of the most blatant evidence to the contrary. However this little intervention helps your case not a jot since it has been LibDem policy since circa 2007 to call for an EU referendum. Also the call for an in/out EU referendum was explicitly stated in their election manifestos for 2010 and 2015: "The Liberal Democrats 2010 election manifesto expanded on the party’s position, saying “The European Union has evolved significantly since the last public vote on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU.” It also reiterated similar sentiments in its 2015 election manifesto." https://fullfact.org/europe/lib-dems-first-call-eu-referendum/ 

Silly me for describing the EU referendum as a piece of coalition legislation just because it was a policy both the coalition parties had supported both before and after the GE. However, I'm so sorry to spoil your brief moment of joy, given that this shows your claim that PR (and a coalition government) would have lessened the chances of exit from the EU is not remotely supported by the evidence (indeed quite the contrary). 

Now can I look forward to you spending a few days trawling through all the falsehoods you have published but obstinately refused to correct? Thought not!

[Aggy 766]

2 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

Brexit was an act of self harm. The Brexit tw@ts persuaded people, through lies, to impose sanctions on themselves, they should never be forgiven.

 

Yeah but we get to have blue passports 

[Herman 9,868]

A brexit win, hooray. Pork markets to boot!!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1713525/brexit-news-south-korea-christmas-trade-deal-kemi-badenoch

Oh.....

"It is estimated that the Korean market could be worth up to £1 million to UK exporters in the first five years."

[horsefly 4,326]

2 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

Brexit was an act of self harm. The Brexit tw@ts persuaded people, through lies, to impose sanctions on themselves, they should never be forgiven.

 

Indeed! So shi*te was the "oven ready deal" that we still haven't introduced the Brexit border controls for EU goods entering the country from Europe. We simply can't afford to, and are unlikely to ever do so. However, the EU very quickly and very efficiently introduced those rules to protect the single market from UK exports. Well done Brexitards!

[horsefly 4,326]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

A brexit win, hooray. Pork markets to boot!!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1713525/brexit-news-south-korea-christmas-trade-deal-kemi-badenoch

Oh.....

"It is estimated that the Korean market could be worth up to £1 million to UK exporters in the first five years."

I have contacted my local church to ring the bells in triumph. Let the country rejoice!

[horsefly 4,326]

If this doesn't epitomise the crass stupidity of Brexit I don't know what does:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-means-no-british-manufacturer-able-to-build-uk-government-s-ministerial-cars/ar-AA15Cu5i?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a52a922cb34f459da10fcc1a64f165a0

Brexit means no British manufacturer able to build UK government’s ministerial cars

The government's next fleet of armoured ministerial cars will be made in Germany because supply chain issues hampered by Brexit mean no British manufacturer is able to meet its requirements, The Independent has learned. The Metropolitan Police announced over the summer that it was ditching armoured Jaguar XJs for Baden-Württemberg-assembled Audi A8s – prompting criticism. 

But it has now been revealed that the decision was made because there no British car maker is "able to meet the requirements of the tender", forcing the Met's hand.

Last year, UK car production hit its lowest level since 1956, amid skills shortages and supply chain issues worsened by Brexit and the pandemic.

Jaguar has provided British government ministerial cars for more than three decades but its plants have had to pause production at points over the past few years due to problems obtaining parts.

“Twelve years of Tory instability and uncertainty has left our car industry suffering," said Jonathan Reynolds, Labour’s shadow business secretary. 

"UK car manufacturing output is less than half the level it was six years ago – a truly harrowing situation for a hard-working industry which deserves better."

The problems obtaining a suitable car from the UK were revealed in a written response to a question from the London Assembly, which scrutinises the Metropolitan Police Authority. The Met is in turn responsible for ministerial protection, including procuring the cars.

[PurpleCanary 5,608]

I believe Cameron once explained that he only put a promise to hold a Brexit referendum in the 2015 manifesto because he assumed he would afterwards still have to form a coalition with the LibDems, who would then only agree to take part if that promise was dropped. Instead he won an outright majority and he was struck with it.

The LibDems had argued that there might have to be a referendum but with a significant caveat: "The European Union has evolved significantly since the last public vote on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU.” And no such fundamental change was in the offing.

[horsefly 4,326]

38 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I believe Cameron once explained that he only put a promise to hold a Brexit referendum in the 2015 manifesto because he assumed he would afterwards still have to form a coalition with the LibDems, who would then only agree to take part if that promise was dropped. Instead he won an outright majority and he was struck with it.

The LibDems had argued that there might have to be a referendum but with a significant caveat: "The European Union has evolved significantly since the last public vote on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU.” And no such fundamental change was in the offing.

Cameron has been trying to rewrite history ever since the unmitigated disaster that his Brexit referendum visited upon the country burdened his legacy with overwhelming guilt and failure. Both he and the LibDems assumed a victory for remain was inevitable, so I think one should take any claims that a coalition government post the 2015 GE would have dared renege on the promise of a referendum with all the scepticism and contempt it deserves. Ukippers and the Tory right would have had a field day. The LibDems had been consistently arguing for a referendum from about 2007 (the first major party to do so), so again their subsequent attempts to absolve themselves from blame by referring to vague caveats deserves nothing but ridicule (particularly considering the absolute pasting they received for having reneged on a previous manifesto commitment concerning student fees). A coalition government in 2015 would by definition have been very vulnerable, so the idea that they wouldn't have appeased the Brexit supporting right-wingers in UKIP and the Tories (at that time a very powerful and growing political viewpoint) is for me a wildly implausible claim designed to deflect from the culpability of politicians who failed miserably in their leadership and judgement.

Edited December 24, 2022 by horsefly