The Positive Brexit Thread

[Herman 9,744]

Foxy, we're not in the EU anymore. Keep up.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

14 minutes ago, Foxy2600 said:

 

Where were you when the dodgy PPE deals were being published?

[Barbe bleu 818]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

It looks like they are moving fast and making sure any culprits are thoroughly investigated. Well done the EU. 

I'm not sure even you believe that! It's a massive blow to the EUs credibility and there's probably not too much comfort in saying they have reacted well given that it was a nation state and not the EU that investigated/uncovered this.

But the flip side is that a single incidence of (as yet unproven) corruption isn't in itself evidence of a  culture of corruption in the institutions or of a lack of good, yet practical, governance procedures. But everyone on both sides already knew that.

The most remarkable thing about this is that the story is already a few days old, and has been read by everyone on here  but this is the first time it has come up! 

[Herman 9,744]

I guess that now we have left the EU nobody really follows what is going on over there and the fact we have so many problems to follow over here.

[Yellow Fever 3,763]

7 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

The most remarkable thing about this is that the story is already a few days old, and has been read by everyone on here  but this is the first time it has come up! 

The point is nobody else was trying to make anything of it. It's just a non-starter as an 'anti-EU' post for any thinking person - or reason for Brexit. Corruption & fraud as we've argued before exists everywhere (look at the USA for instance if you won't look at home).

The EU and nation states will act with due diligence and the application the law. Nothing more or less is expected.

[Barbe bleu 818]

5 minutes ago, Herman said:

I guess that now we have left the EU nobody really follows what is going on over there and the fact we have so many problems to follow over here.

Really?  This has been on main stream media for ages.  If you've missed it you probably need to think about whether you get a balanced media diet.

[Barbe bleu 818]

1 minute ago, Yellow Fever said:

The point is nobody else was trying to make anything of it.

You're not wrong there, it's been a case of 'keep your heads down lads, it might not have been noticed yet' for a while.

And yes, since ricardo isnt on these pages anymore i am just stirring the pot a bit.

[Herman 9,744]

22 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Really?  This has been on main stream media for ages.  If you've missed it you probably need to think about whether you get a balanced media diet.

The only people that care are desperate brexiters. I'm not sure why they'd want to distract our attention.

[Yellow Fever 3,763]

4 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

You're not wrong there, it's been a case of 'keep your heads down lads, it might not have been noticed yet' for a while.

And yes, since ricardo isnt on these pages anymore i am just stirring the pot a bit.

But it's no more relevant than the Fed going after Trump is it (or I guess our PPE scandals). Has sod all really to do with Brexit or any reason thereof. I suppose you could argue that Johnson's antics was an excellent reason for the EU to distance itself and reason enough for Scotland to toy with independence - Johnson was Sturgeons best vote winner.

All it demonstrates is that in the EU and Belgium in particular corruption will be rooted out. Good. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[horsefly 4,293]

1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'm not sure even you believe that! It's a massive blow to the EUs credibility and there's probably not too much comfort in saying they have reacted well given that it was a nation state and not the EU that investigated/uncovered this.

But the flip side is that a single incidence of (as yet unproven) corruption isn't in itself evidence of a  culture of corruption in the institutions or of a lack of good, yet practical, governance procedures. But everyone on both sides already knew that.

The most remarkable thing about this is that the story is already a few days old, and has been read by everyone on here  but this is the first time it has come up! 

I don't think anyone on here is so naïve as to not think that political power by its very nature opens up enormous potential for corruption. There is not a country in the world free of its temptations (even Vatican City!!!). Frankly we should all be delighted to see it exposed wherever it occurs. Particular focus on the UK by posters here is justified because this is where we live, and because Boris Johnson descended to new levels of depravity in modern UK politics to the degree to which he nakedly and unashamedly sought to corrupt the standards of parliamentary process and privilege for his own and his party's personal gain.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,186]

Page 1000 👏

nearly half as long as the other thread 😀

Unsurprised to see corruption in the EU, I think we all know that has been going on forever 

As like everywhere else, there is corruption in the UK and England. Can we leave those too? 😄

Edited December 12, 2022 by How I Wrote Elastic Man

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

Really?  This has been on main stream media for ages.  If you've missed it you probably need to think about whether you get a balanced media diet.

So a piece of corruption means Brexit is not a failure? That the whole concept of the EU is wrong because of some corruption?

[A Load of Squit 5,155]

That Greek lady does look a lot like Lady Mone.

 

[Barbe bleu 818]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

So a piece of corruption means Brexit is not a failure? That the whole concept of the EU is wrong because of some corruption?

I didn't say either of those things. 

What I said, and all is said, was that this scandal has caused a lot of damage to the EU but that you cannot conclude from this one (unproven) incident that there is a culture of corruption in the EU or that governance of the Union is anymore flawed than anywhere else.

My view on the failure or success of brexit is to say well it was always an emotional exercise l, so each person should decide if they feel happy about it or not.   I cant decide that for them and nor can any amount of charts or graphs or opinions  pieces in the  Express or Guardian or on Otto English's twitter page.

[Herman 9,744]

Has it actually caused that much damage? Or are you just needing a win, no matter how small? 

[Yellow Fever 3,763]

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

That Greek lady does look a lot like Lady Mone.

 

€600,000 or £27,000,000

Looks like a world of difference to me.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

25 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I didn't say either of those things. 

What I said, and all is said, was that this scandal has caused a lot of damage to the EU but that you cannot conclude from this one (unproven) incident that there is a culture of corruption in the EU or that governance of the Union is anymore flawed than anywhere else.

My view on the failure or success of brexit is to say well it was always an emotional exercise l, so each person should decide if they feel happy about it or not.   I cant decide that for them and nor can any amount of charts or graphs or opinions  pieces in the  Express or Guardian or on Otto English's twitter page.

Stirring the pot I believe you said.

[Barbe bleu 818]

6 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Stirring the pot I believe you said.

Oh yes, I'm doing that.   

I didn't mention brexit at all though.  In fact I think inbetween stirring the pot I was actually quite defensive of the EU institutions

[Barbe bleu 818]

29 minutes ago, Herman said:

Has it actually caused that much damage? Or are you just needing a win, no matter how small? 

My only win here is the reaction, but its the only one I was seeking!

Besides which my message was actually quite defensive of the EU.

 

[Herman 9,744]

Maybe focus on your own mess rather than trying to wind us up.👍

[Well b back 3,199]

I suspect Farage won’t be shouting to much about this in case they decide to arrest and prosecute all mep’s that defrauded Brussels.

[Herman 9,744]

Here you go @Barbe bleu and @Foxy2600. James O'Brexit discussing corruption in the EU.

Follow Nicholas Vinocur's twitter thread for more news.

[Herman 9,744]

To misquote Shakin' Stevens, a whole lotta griftin' going on.

‘We didn’t vote for this’: anger over Brexit failures is haunting the Tories.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/18/anger-brexit-tories-red-wall-conservatives-reform-uk-party-immigration

[horsefly 4,293]

So, not only did the NHS not see a single pound of the mythical £350m a week that was supposed to be heading its way post Brexit, it has now been shown by the Nuffield Trust (as reputable a source as you can possibly get on health issues) that Brexit has directly caused the NHS tremendous damage:

Brexit damaging NHS with staff and medicine shortages, study finds

Brexit is damaging the NHS and driving pressure on overstretched services, a study by healthcare experts has found. A new report by think tank the Nuffield Trust warns that Britain’s departure from the EU has worsened recruitment shortages while pushing up the price of some medicines and making some more difficult to obtain. The report also states that Brexit could worsen health inequality. 

The findings of the study are a far cry from the promises of the Leave campaign, which promoted the idea that leaving the EU would secure more funds for the health service.

Mark Dayan, Brexit programme lead at the Nuffield Trust, said it was “undeniable that the NHS has faced three of the most difficult years in its history” thanks to the pandemic and inflation. But he also said “the effects of Brexit appear to have added to the severe challenges and problems the NHS currently faces”.

“The economic hit of Brexit, combined with the worst cost of living crisis for a generation, is reducing living standards, creating additional need for health and care. Meanwhile a slowdown in EU and EFTA [referring to countries within the European Free Trade Association] recruitment is making shortages of urgently needed careworkers, dentists, and specialist doctors even worse,” he said.

“The UK has also apparently taken the worst of a period of medicines shortages which has swept across Europe. The fall in the value of sterling around the EU referendum, and the trade barriers erected since, are probably major factors in our unusually consistent and long-standing problems supplying vital products.”

The researchers say the NHS has struggled to recruit dentists, social care workers, and specialist doctors such as anaesthetists and heart and lung specialists since the EU referendum.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-damaging-nhs-with-staff-and-medicine-shortages-study-finds/ar-AA15qJ6n?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=35b28d3af67345a7956d6956fec4305c

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,529]

And yet 34% of the British public still thinks leaving the EU was the right decision. Whichever of the two main parties that dares tackle the issue under our current electoral system can look forward to the chaos of the Brexit process being repeated all over again.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/

Edited December 20, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,744]

And that is why Starmer is keeping his brexit position. He won't win an election on that whilst a large proportion of the electorate are blind to the damage. 

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

9 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

And yet 34% of the British public still thinks leaving the EU was the right decision. Whichever of the two main parties that dares tackle the issue under our current electoral system can look forward to the chaos of the Brexit process being repeated all over again.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/

True enough, but that 34% is a pretty significant reduction from the 52% who voted to leave and as far as one can tell the trend of leave voters changing their mind is ongoing and probably increasing as the problems that Brexit has caused are becoming  ever more apparent. So in two years time who knows what the figures will be.

I don't doubt that there is a reluctance to revisit the Brexit process, primarily within our two major political parties given the utter shambles they made of it first time around but I don't think that more chaos per se will be too much of a problem. Chaos seems to be very much in vogue in the UK at the moment and indeed actively encouraged by the current muppets in government -  doubt that another Brexit row would even make the headlines at the moment!!

Edited December 20, 2022 by Creative Midfielder
Mispelling of chaos - problably a message there somewhere!

[sonyc 5,508]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

choas seems to be very much in vogue in the UK at the moment and indeed actively encouraged by the current muppets in government -  doubt that another Brexit row would even make the headlines at the moment!!

Talking to my son recently - we were discussing his work and the impacts on it etc...and we agreed that UK life and society is in a bad place right now. Even considering the experiences of such a young person as him. Customers at his place of work are struggling with their health, some are freezing in their homes, the postal services are very poor, there are staff shortages everywhere to the extent it is hard to get many domestic services. The pandemic is still about (today I'm reading that the health service is falling over in many areas of the country - if you've had a stroke for example, you've got to get driven to hospital rather than use an ambulance, in fact almost any emergency short of expecting to die there and then).

We talked about food banks themselves struggling with their energy bills and he knows of charities who are worrying and laying off staff. The pinch point will be March for many. Some have had fixed energy deals which run out.

Quickly, we rallied off the other things you just can't avoid in the news - Railways and transport problems? Tick. Industrial unrest? Tick (in fact, has there been a worse time for strikes?). Sewage from rivers? Tick. Record profits for utility companies? Tick. Scandals and political disharmony? War in Ukraine and all the uncertainty? Yes.

And we had not even talked about Brexit!

So... chaos - yes! I just wonder whether people have had enough of Brexit? It is such a toxic thing that even those who voted for it have gone quiet. It sits quietly under everything. The rotten apple at the bottom of the barrel.

I just hope CM that someone starts up a more constructive debate about Europe, something which can unite, bring the country together. If you recall on this very forum the months leading up to the vote split posters in two. It was such a divisive thing. I can't recall anything more divisive in my lifetime. Like a terrible divorce and complicated relationships, it's always hard later to pick up the pieces.

That's why Starmer is staying clear. It needs time (unfortunately) but I do believe he is starting to say the right things. Many Brexiters who voted were of an older cohort and their voices will fade. In the same vein I've always been impressed really that those older voices you hear from WW2 are far more nuanced, about what war and peace meant to them. So not everyone who is is of advanced age is ulra conservative. In fact, many talk about the need for having love for one another. As an aside, therefore, it's a real treat watching those vox pops of former war heroes. It makes me realise not everyone is reactionary or fixed. But maybe horrible young people remain and become horrible older people? 

Anyway, any positive post war 'narrative' that formerly existed was weak enough that by 2016, Farage et al was deploying his particular propaganda to try and influence public opinion. A subverting of the post war message?  There again, the immigration issue (fear of foreigners)  has always been there hasn't it. Multiculturalism did make some inroads. 

Anyway, I'm just getting off on a tangent now...(I reckon somehow I'm influenced by reading about Terry Hall this morning. RIP. He thought it was all s*** too). 

Got to look ahead and hope this is a nadir we are in (and that we have reached it and don't have further to fall) and that the only way is up and more constructive...that 2023 / 2024 will mark a reset.

Edited December 20, 2022 by sonyc
CM not CF

[horsefly 4,293]

4 hours ago, Herman said:

And that is why Starmer is keeping his brexit position. He won't win an election on that whilst a large proportion of the electorate are blind to the damage. 

Indeed! And could you imagine Starmer saying to the electorate at the next election, "I know you are all suffering from the dire and dreadful consequences of the cost of living crisis, and I know you are seriously worried about losing your homes, putting food into your children's' mouths,  the imminent collapse of the NHS, and education, and social care etc, etc. However, I have decided we should spend the first 2-3 years of government re-running another Brexit referendum, then the next few years negotiating with the EU for re-entry. I can think of no better way to unify the country and resolve the current sh*it storm you are all facing". What a brilliant election winning strategy that would be.

Edited December 20, 2022 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,293]

10 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

And yet 34% of the British public still thinks leaving the EU was the right decision. Whichever of the two main parties that dares tackle the issue under our current electoral system can look forward to the chaos of the Brexit process being repeated all over again.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/

The current electoral system is entirely irrelevant to the Brexit issue. It was a coalition government that legislated for the Brexit referendum, and it was LibDem Party policy for many years prior to that to have such a referendum on EU membership.